Actually you did. And since you like quotes so much, here's one from Cindy, "Sorry, Fiber, but you do seem to have made me your project and I am not sure why. I appreciate a lot of your advice...I really do...but this thread is a bit much."

Then show me, jaded. Prove it. It's all here in black and white, right? No need to read between the lines if I actually said the words.

Or maybe you're a communications psychic, able to know what people intend to say without them having to say it. Or even think it. Maybe you know better what we all think than we do. Or the true feelings beneath my carefully expressed words. Let's see if you can read my mind on this one.

See you next Tuesday.

And Cindy...sorry, no, you're not my pet project. You just happen to be actively posting today. If others were actively posting I'd be answering them as well. You could have been anyone. It's just a slow day, I guess.

I didn't mean to insinuate that I am anything special. It is just odd how persistent you were in disputing everything I said...

No perception of the difference between disputing and questioning?

Yeah... okay. Just add a question mark and it's not disputing. Wait... If I add a question mark to the end of this statement am I no longer disputing your assertion that you aren't disputing?

Sometimes it seems to be a fine line....

I never disputed the accuracy of anything you've said. I've questioned if you had considered other possibilities, or tried certain tactics. I can't know how you've approached this if I don't ask or you don't say.

So, just between you and I, without lawyers crying 'asked and answered!', did you ever tell your husband that oral sex would be a deal breaker? Did you tell him your bottom line of 'these are the things I can't live without'? I'm not saying you have to, just asking if you have.

Jaded, you really are a special piece of work, aren't you? I've been talking with Cindy for weeks. I'd sure like to be allowed to ask her a simple question without your persistent, disruptive aggression.

On second thought, never mind. Cindy, you don't mind input until it gets too close to home, then it's easier to hide behind a smoke screen of bullying like the one jaded has created here. I forgot, again. Dopey me. Have fun with that, sitting in the dark. I hope you find your solutions in there.

How many foggy CS does it take to change a lightbulb? No knew will ever know, since they just sit in the dark and bitch about it.

Oral sex alone is not a deal-breaker! It is but one example I gave of something I don't want to do without. If it were the only thing, I would try a cunnilingus-simulating toy....

And the question was....'Did you tell him?'!!! Did you say 'these, x, y, z, are things I can't live without, and I'm prepared to leave our marriage if you won't or can't provide them'?

Did you tell him? Does he even know how close you are to leaving?

Ok I've tried to sift through this thread to get some of the pertinant information and here is my response

1. Jaded your constant responding to fibers comments and suggestions throws the whole thread off because then of course fiber needs to respond as she should then she needs to readdress cindy. Kind of frustrating to get through what shoild be a great open discussion is becoming a pissing contest.

2. Done can trun back into love. Beleive me because it has happened to me and others I know. I was not attracted to my H for uears and was done to the point thati did seperate from him and now our marriage is in a mich better place

3. Wether any one thing is a deal breaker or not isn't the point. You have a million reasons to ask for a seperation and since it is what you truely want then I beleive you shoild ask for it with total honesty about yourpast and how you feel . You've said there is equal financial (if I remeber correctly) stability between you and your H so a seperation is fesable.

4. If you can sift through the arguments between jaded and fiber you will see that fiber is merely making suggestions and giving hope to what "feels" like a hopelss situation. Her frank approach may cause you to want to hide but don't. Read her suggestions with an open mind. She is a reformed cs and I am a bs who had a history of being cold and distant with my H. I totaly see where she is comi g from and the point she is dezperztly trying grt you to see and consider.

5. I don't know more than what you've told us but from that I believe that there is hope for your marriage. I believe that all avenues should be crossed before handing in the towel.

Wishing peace and clarity through all of this

Pink

If you were to wander over to Infidelity ( not saying that you should, just say if...) and asked the betrayed spouses if they were ever told 'these are my needs and I'm prepared to end this if they are not met', most of them (if not all) would tell you that they were not. And that, if they had been told, many would have moved heaven and earth to make their spouses happy. But they had no idea it was that bad. Somewhere still having regular, good sex with the CSS who were thinking of leaving. They were completely blindsided.

Now, does it suck that some need to be hit with a 2x4 to wake up? Sure. Some CS need the 2x4 treatment, too. Some of us are hard headed women who would have been well loved by Cat Steven. It's a personal quality than can be a blessing or a curse.

I have also come across CS who didn't want to state their needs, creating the spouse might meet those needs and then there would be no reason to leave. Sometimes a person just wants out, it has little to do with the spouse, and it's just easier to point to issues than to say 'I really don't know why, I just want out.'

In that case at least a spouse can honestly be told 'it's not you, it's me'. Little consolation, but better than being blamed.