On this note, I wanna jump in...

Sure, Cole, that makes total sense. All the sense in the world.

OR we just have different people coming to their own places with their own sensuality and sexuality. And that's alright too.

Just because a person likes sex and has an active sex life, doesn't necessarily mean that they have been abused or neglected.

Here's me...raised well, in a strong faith based family and community, no abuse, was married young...and had a crap sex life.

It was crap.

After the divorce? I decided that there were some elements of my life that were most important to me. Sure, honesty, a partner who was an adult, like values and morals, all of that AND I wanted to have a great chemistry with someone.

I decided to not settle for another relationship with a crap sex life. Forget that.

I see people as needing that sensuality and intimacy. We do need that. Both sexes. Nothing wrong with it. It's just the way we were designed. To me, it's just a part of the 'internal click' or 'wiring.' so I adamantly refused to be with someone who I did not click with sexually.

I am at home with my sexuality.

While I have never thrown myself or my body around, out of respect for me and who I beleive me to be, I also am very much at home with my own sensuality. It's my choice. I am comfortable with it.

While I see, clearly, Cole and Natty, what you are saying, I hope you see my point. I am not a college kid. Or a child. I am a grown woman, making this choice with myself and my own body.

So, I can also see and understand what Blind is saying. I think he's saying, 'let the woman choose.' I can see that too.

'Let the woman choose.' And, for me, 'don't worry about me. I hold myself in high regard and will take care of me well.'

I can see both sides of this whole deal. I can see it well.

(I do agree with the girls, Cole, TMI on your wife's body. LOL...I would be so hurt if my Man was talking about my saggin' ass or my little boobs...so I did skip all of that...glad she's alright with it tho...and tell her Congrats on the wieght loss!)

this is just me, sitting on the fence.

L~

If you recognize that a woman is vulnerable either obvious self esteem issues or possible intoxication and you have with this knowledge then you are deffinitely taking advantage. Taking something that was not meant to be taken.

It is a tough subject when you begin to worry about wether the other person is a willing partner or fallen to their own insecurities.

Sex like eating is an animal basic instinct. Our bodies were made to have sex. Men and women were both given sexual desire to draw them to the act of sex for the purpose of procreating.

As humans we have developed a sense of values and moral codes that we live by. Of course the main one being the golden rule.

So if a person does not see having sex has anything to do with them being taken advantage of, then they will not see that anothererson might be feeling taken advantage of.

I think for this matter is all based on each individual in the situation.

Yes, Cole some of it kinda makes sense, kinda being the operative word. But I still feel strongly that we can't draw concrete conclusions, because even if double blind studies were done, I think it would be inconclusive simple because: there are too many variables, and how do you separate them, or weigh the value of each variable. The variables could easily be in flux, and one can affect another one, differently in a different situation, different time in their life, and with evolving personal philosophies. Since we are a "work in progress", and most of us cotinue to learn, grow, and evolve, don't think that there are too many "constants".

Take for example if you did a study on using exclusively women who had no father figure, either due to divorce or death. Say my family of four women: One was very sexually promiscous, one was looking for validation in older men and perhaps "looking for love in all the wrong places", one was quiet and reserved and somewhat limited how many men she had (only a few she loved), and one was married, divorced, came into her own, and was more sensual and sexual and didn't restrict herself super much, but was by no means, promiscuous. Three of the four, got divorced, and the 4th one could easily have been by her H, due to her alcoholism and abusiveness, but he's 81 yrs. old, and is tryinghis best to weather the storm. Two of them, married men who were sexual abusers, pedophiles even. One married her H, 20 years her senior. All experienced a home without a father, a very anxious mother, who was never treated for her post-traumatic stress disorder, who kept secrets, and was physically and emotionally abusive. At least 3, I believe also had some some of PTSD, one became a social worker, counselor, one a teacher.

And then there is this kind of sexy factor thing going on, which I'm not sure how to describe. My oldest sister was pretty, but had some issues with double scoliosis, and my Mom always called her "Kreislig Pukel", which means in Germa, ugly back, and always told her to stand straight, sit straight, etc. She was also responsible for assisting and raising us, while Mom had 3 jobs, and told her, "You are the mother" and "I am the father breadwinner", and this was imposed on her way too early, so she escaped into the world of drugs, got preggie early, and lived with a degenerate guy, who she married, and turned into a pedophile.

I raised that daughter, (another sign of being super responsible at an early age), and turns out my H, was a pedophile, so I divorced him. So see, so many factors.

But I digress, back to the sexy vibe thing. Some women may have a nice face, beautiful eyes, hair, etc (kind of the standards we think of models). I actually did model for about 10 years, and did some acting. Tell ya why. I was always told how pretty I was, but I didn't see it, or accept it, I was too busy dealing with life, it's baggage, self-esteem issues (but not with school, academics, or sports). Then as my self-esteem rose, and I got to say age 15, I noticed boys and young men coming out of the woodwork, and did receive a lot of attention. But I still wasn't sure why! So maybe there was that "sexy factor" going on, without my even attempting. Sure, I did straighten my hair, and wore make-up nicely, and bought clothes which were in vogue, but as my self-esteem rose, and I tried on new roles (the academic student, the sporty gal who won many tournaments in many areas, receiving medals, ribbons, and trophies), then I was more willing to accept that I was "worthy" or more like others, and I learned to overcome some obstacles, and put aside those negative tapes, and messages, and refused to let them rent free space in my head.

I went to a renunion several years ago (all girl Catholic HS), and I was amazed how many women told me how they admired me, thought I was so beautiful, never changed, blah, blah, blah. It really did catch me off guard, although I knew I was popular due to being involved in many different classes, clubs, cliques, I didn't realize how popular. So, yeah, it felt nice. But now as we get older and the skin sags a little on the face, ya get a little something under the chin at certain angles, you see pictures of yourself where you say, wow, I am chubby, or wow, I look old....reality sets in a little more. Before you had turned heads, left and right, and now a few years before 60, ya kind of are a chameleon, and blend in, and sometimes actually feel invisible, or disappear. So that changes too over time. And so does one's priorities. Sure a helluva lot easier for me to say beauty is skin deep, and what's inside is more important, when I don't look nearly like I used, too, lol!

So Cole, I think some people are just born with that sexy factor, and they can attempt to hide it a little, with baggy or unattractive clothing, wear no make-up, and downplay their hair, but if it's there it's there. And other women may not be super attractive but due to all the extras, can look very attractive, and exude sexiness. And then there's the type who are comfortable in their own skin, and seem to converse comfortably, and blend in socially with a natural ease, and they can be attractive. So attractive comes in many forms, some just have great hearts, are supportive, and jsut attract alot of people; men, women, kids, pets, etc. And that can be kind of appealing. So many ways one can be attractive besides the exterior value, and as we all get older, let's hope we all work on the interior as well. We all want to grow old gracefully, some do , some don't, some have their moments. But no one can take away your heart, your intentions, your self-esteem, or your values, so that's the good thing here.

In conclusion, I don't think there is a rhyme of reason, or no set formula of a particular woman who has sex with more than one particular partner, their wife. And Of course, the popular and contemporary approach is: if a woman desires to have sex, she's entitled to do that, and most people today won't consider her promiscuous or "whorish", cuz that is entirely what our culture seems to have inculcated. It used to be however, that men could be playboys, but if a woman attempted to bed that many men, she'd be consider a lowlife "ho" ! Thank God the double standard is balancing off a little bit. But, like I said before, different strokes for different folks.

"I'm sure in various ways, whether through childhood or culture or other behaviors which lead to one not putting the value on sex that they should..."

The only way you are going to be able to really evaluate and discuss this with any efficacy is if the subjects of the discussion, and those you are discussing it with, are people who have similar beliefs about the role and value of sexual relationships. Because, as you see here, the value you (or I) place on sex is different from that of others (probably most others). When one does not believe it is something reserved only for married couples once they are married, you've already gone beyond the scope you were probably seeking, and it leads to a somewhat convoluted discussion.

Even within the context of more liberal views on sexual relationships, there are still going to be a lot of variables and personal factors that play a role in behavior. Certainly, a person doesn't have to share your views to be acting due to negative influences rather than a belief that the behavior is acceptable. Likewise, the same behavior in another may just plain not be viewed as wrong in any way, and therefore the why is not really relevant.

"So, I can also see and understand what Blind is saying. I think he's saying, 'let the woman choose.' I can see that too."

I don't think Cole was suggesting people cannot choose for themselves how to behave. Somehow, his refusal to engage with someone sexually was seen as making a choice for HER. I don't get that logic. She chose, and he chose, because had a right to choose, too. The question was about WHY people choose certain behaviors.

You gots a point, Natty!

L~

@Blonde,

Well, a good hunk of your post I won't touch with a ten foot pole. Awe, heck, let's make that a hundred foot pole. I'm going to side step talking about your body. I'll wait for all the other women on here to be offended by your comments.

Yes, there is some simply belief system differences here. Some people treat and believe having sex isn't much more significant than going on a date to eat ice cream. It taste good and we enjoy doing it together, why not?

And for sure, I nor anyone else has the right to force a person to decide one way or the other when they will have sex. Whatever their reason. I may believe they are tossing away something valuable, but if they don't see that due to circumstances or just the way they were brought up, what I think about it isn't going to decide anything for them.

Let's bring this to something that perhaps there isn't as widespread acceptance of like premarital sex with multiple partners. Let's take a girl who gets into making porn movies and/or prostitution. While some will defend that as okay, there are a lot more examples of girls getting taken advantage of in that industry, and I would suspect (though I may find out I'm surprised) that most here would consider doing that usually not a good outcome for that woman. Most of us here, I'm going to go out on a limb and say, probably wouldn't want our daughters working in those "careers" because we fear they will get used and hurt.

Now, the causes and such as we've already discussed would probably be varied and depend not only on belief system about sex, but situations in their upbringing. But those activities are still generally seen as "not good" much like premarital sex used to be seen. Some shifts have made it more acceptable, and the prevalence of porn on the net no doubt makes it culturally more acceptable than maybe it was in the days when a boy could hardly get a Playboy to look at, while now twelve year olds can pull up all the bestiality and hard core porn they want in full live color action.

But the same dynamic is happening here, only that more people view this as bad for the person, because one can label more direct negative consequences from it than you can for premarital sex. Saying participating in it will hinder healthy relationships down the line is hard to show and prove as such, like Blonde said, because there are so many factors, despite the logic making sense, once you've crossed that line before marriage of treating sex that way, it becomes more likely when tempted to continue to treat sex that way within marriage, affecting the rates of cheating.

Note: I'm not trying to generalize here as much as attempt to explore what and where a lack of respect and self-esteem plays into this.

And I guess I have some personal reasons. Both my daughter and my wife have done this, treated sex as something to throw away, as merely a pleasure activity with no further consequences or ramifications. In my daughter's case, it seemed she was willing to settle for men who only wanted to use her that way, including a long time boyfriend who she finally realized was selfish and only cared about himself and for that and several reasons, she got up the nerve to leave him. Now she finally has a man who will care for her better.

And I don't have to tell you how that plays into my W cheating on me. We know how the "why?" never makes total since.

But here's the deal. They both held at one point high morals. My daughter experienced a loving mother and father, never divorced unlike our parents, we thought we had instilled values into her that would have kept her from treating sex like just something you do on a fun night out. Yet she lost her virginity to a stranger at a sex party. And she continued to have sex with multiple guys throughout college. She at one point shared my beliefs. Yet, despite a decently good upbringing, she felt low self-esteem and seemed to take whatever or whoever came along and acted the least bit interested. And she did have the sort of body that attracted attention. So she got plenty of "offers."

And my W definitely shared my beliefs. I thought she valued our exclusive intimacy, that no one else had ever been let into our sex life, as much as I did. While we had our issues, which we've already discussed here and in my journals, on the whole we both loved each other very much. And yet despite 28+ years of marriage and me wanting her all the time, and she knew I loved her, she was willing to have sex with this man, even though she never got that far with him, even though she knew that was all he wanted, and nothing more. She was ready to lower herself down to his level of scumbagness. And I can't see her doing that unless she simply has no respect for herself. If she respect who she was as a person, she would have been offended at his text and advances instead of enthralled by them.

So maybe its just that I'm trying to work through. I guess I just don't think you can treat sex one way, and then easily turn it off when you get married and suddenly act like it is more than having a good time. Even if you do that mentally because you love someone, the idea that you can go have sex just for fun is still there, because you treated it that way for so long.

That in particular wasn't my W's problem, though it was in part brought on by someone who was a serial cheater drawing her into his trap, and was his belief system. He kept going after her despite knowing she was married, and she told him, happily so. But she was sending out opposite signals that she wanted it, so he kept pursuing.

And for the record, this goes as much about men as women, more so on that front. Because men typically can just have sex to enjoy an O and not much else, not really caring about a relationship or getting emotionally involved. It is often with many of them not much different in motivation than eating their favorite meal. And about as meaningful.

Okay, enough rambling. Just hashing through all this stuff. Thanks for the sounding boards.

Cole - I have not even attempted to read other's posts/replys to this, but wanted to put my 2 cents in so I apologizes to anyone if this is a repeat.

The American culture has "rules". those rules suggest that a woman must find a "good man" to take care of her. Even now that it's 2012. There is still a predisposition for most that women are weak, are inferior, are used for breeding. If you don't believe me - try being a woman for a day...

There has always been this idea that a man can sleep with many women and be a "stud" where a woman needs only to sleep with her husband. Otherwise she is a "slut". Pretty much since around the 1990's many woman have been "taking back" their sexuality and having sex when they want and with whom they want. But underlying all that is the idea that women must look or act a certain way to attract a man. That it's the womans job to do the attracting rather than the man's job to show he's worthy. Self esteem can have a lot to do with this. B/c let's face it, if a lot of men are attracted to you, then you must be pretty or sexy or whatever word you want to use.

You also have to look not only at the women but the men from whom they are getting attention. Haven't you ever heard the idea that the "nice guy never get's the girl". The idea that if you are "nice" as a guy, you won't take advantage, that you will respect the woman by not having sex with her. But sometimes women just want to have sex. Sometimes women are able to have sex and it JUST BE SEX. But due to the views that women should be virginal and men are allowed to be non-chalant about sex...there is a disconnect.

While I appreciate your idea that a lot of it has to do with self esteem, sometimes a WOMAN just wants to get laid. Sometimes we just want to feel the physical pleasure of sex. Why does it always have to come down to self esteem and respect? Why can't women just want sex?

@ Cole,

I don't think I said that much about my body, at all! lol
I mentioned face, hair, eyes, and chin, lol! I'm curious why you won't touch my post with a 100 ft. pole, lol.

If ya want, you can send me an email.

As far as my statement, that I'm glad women aren't being treated in a double standard, like the playboys.....I stick to that point, cuz i don't see the difference due to a person being born male versus female. It's gonna be done in society, so I say take the slack and negativity off the women. I'm not saying I advocate women should sleep around, but if they are condescended upon for doing so, then it should be the same that men are considered scum too, for doing the same behavior! lol What's good for the goose is good for the gander! lol

Well, Blonde, let's just say if I had said those same things about my W, by now there would have been several post on here from people offended that I'm describing my W's "faults" (I consider them features, not faults) like that in public. I could say more but I would only get myself in trouble again. But it does indicate a bit of double-standard that no one is saying anything.

Yours and mishertouch's comments sort of hit on the same issues, but from slightly different perspectives. She seems to think there is still a double-standard going on just as bad as back then, you don't.

Now, I know my experience is limited in that regard, not being a girl and all, but from my perspective, I've never considered it okay to have premartial sex or to treat sex as just a way to have a good time. And I didn't even become a Christian until 16 yrs old. So that could have something to do with it after that, but prior its just the way I was brought up. I never heard the whole cultural thing that it was alright for guys to have their fill while women weren't supposed to until I got older.

As a matter of fact, I hadn't even thought much about it at all until some in 2010 encountering guys like that on another forum that dealt with sexual issues. A single guy went out to get a woman, and his whole goal was to be successful at getting a woman to bed. That is just a way of thinking totally foreign to me. Up until then I'd heard of guys like that, but never really was aware of them in people I'd met in real life.

That I know it is out there strongly I've realized since dday and being on here, when there is this culture others have talked about and is mentioned in some of the books we've read where for many guys at the office, its okay to cheat, just bad to get caught. That whole idea is so stupid it makes me want to vomit. I think I sort of had a venting on here at one point over how stupidly the male CSs behave so often.

But you see, apparently if I'm recall the statistics in Not Just Friends correctly, it has only been in the last 20-30 years that instances of female cheating has risen to nearly match male cheating. Before, it used to be the males that cheated most of the time, apparently fostered by an idea that it was okay for them to do so, wink, wink, nod nod.

And I think it goes back to what I was saying. Men discuss their "conquest" among themselves growing up, creating a culture of sleeping around before marriage. You think that is easily turned off? Just because you get a marriage certificate and say "I do" doesn't mean his views on sex and habits suddenly change to make them a marriage bonding agent that can't be shared with anyone else. The lines already been crossed. Sex has already been treated as if pleasure is its only purpose. That view doesn't go away, and it is that view that makes it easier to say, "Yes" to that temptation when it comes, because after all, its just sex. It doesn't mean I love this woman or want to bond to her, because sex has never meant that. Forget that is what it is actually doing.

Of course I believe all that is wrong for men or women. Not because I don't enjoy sex myself, not because this or that belief system teaches it is wrong, but because it destroys lives, it damages relationships. It either means something more than pleasure and having a good time or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways.

And if it doesn't mean anything other than having a good time, what are we all here for? The fact this group exist and we're all bent out of shape as CSs says it means more than some fun, that just because I wanted to have sex isn't a good enough reason to fuck someone. And if it isn't now, it wasn't a good enough reason then.

So, yeah, I understand, as I've already stated, that some see it as just "I want to" and that's it. And if people see it that way and believe that, even though I think they are hurting themselves in the process, it will continue. I know. It's been going on for a long time and my little rant won't change a thing or that. But I had hoped I had instilled that in my daughter so she might know the joy of an exclusive intimacy when she was married. And I thought my W shared that view and desire. She did, but the circumstances didn't turn out that way.

And I've been hurt by both. How can I not be when I've watched them throw away something very precious and valuable. Something that once it is gone, you'll never get it back. Something my daughter will never experience like I did.

Of course some people just want to do it. I know they don't realize what they are losing doing that, that they will never know the joy of being totally committed and united to one person, exclusive intimacy of the highest order. That's the problem. That's where the lack of respect for what they have comes into it, even if they don't see it or consciously think about it.

Treat sex as common before the marriage, it remains common after the marriage, though that can change with a change of mind.

And maybe I just still hurt about it all, and this is my way of venting.

Ahh.. the loss of exclusivity. It's painful. I understand this. You are searching for why. How could she if (you thought) you had the same values? That, I also get. But then just say that. Don't piss people off with too many words.

Also, I noticed your most recent post focussed less on your generalization of women..

A comment on your daughter. She did not share your beliefs. She acted against them at about the time kids start forming theirs. You cannot do anything but move forward, advising her in her own path. I have no clue how you know but take advantage of her openness to help her learn from her mistakes. Maybe there is something to be said for never having to experience the loss of exclusivity of your one and only partner through betrayal. Because we know just how bad that hurts.

BTW, blonde was not offensive. And if she were, talking about one's own flaws is different from descriptively pointing out the faults of someone else, particularly someone who will be reading what you wrote. If I had not known your wife is a member, I would have had no reaction.

Wow, what would we do without your incredible insight Cole? I know that I, as an inferior woman would probably just perish. Perhaps the double standard that you speak so (less than) eloquently about is one of two things:
1. We are tired of wading through the insanely long, pontificating posts and just cant be bothered.
2. Blondes post is about herself and isnt coming from an obviously hurting spouse (who cant admit it to anyone) who refers to Gabby as someone who wouldnt send people running and screaming away from her, but wouldnt turn any heads either

Perhaps when Gabby was sending out her sexy vibe it was because she was feeling confident. People (especially men) find confident people sexy. Ive heard through the grapevine that over-weight people who lose weight feel more confident. But what would I know. I received my BS in Biology instead of my Mrs. Degree so I may not be able to comment on the complex workings of the human mind.

While Im at it, I should probably just admit that I am projecting your descriptions of your wife on myself because I couldnt possibly be the slightest bit uncomfortable knowing that your wife actually reads what you write. Obviously I am not as enlightened as you are about MY feelings.

Your wife cheated on you and you are pissed. Admit it or dont but please refrain from trying to explain to us what we are thinking.

@mecab,

Thanks for your thoughts. I write to think things through. Sorry for the many words. Not trying to piss anyone off, but apparently I am.

And I recognize you are being consistent, I understand where you were coming from, but others felt personally offended with the comments despite the fact my wife was okay and not offended by them. So there was little difference as if she'd written them herself. I could have added a sentence on the end, "I am Gabrielle, and I approve of this message." Which she did in her own post on the thread. So the message I heard was no matter the truth or from what source, it is offensive for some here for a person's body to be described in any type of perceived negative context. But I don't recall you saying that, so it wasn't being applied to you. You were concerned about Gab reading it and I would agree, if she would have felt I was disrespecting/hurting her, I would have been wrong for doing so. But she wasn't, she said so, and to my recollection you didn't come back and say anything more on it after that was made clear.

That said, there was no way I could reply to that part of Blonde's post without getting into the whole thing again, and I think we've all had enough of that.

@cheaterssuck

Sorry I offended you. Not my intent, though I knew some might end up taking it that way, which is why I tried to not throw it all out there in any strong way. But something came over me while I was writing that last post, I became very tense and nearly cried (tears come easy to me, so not saying I was totally stressed). So it ended up being a rant and a bit stronger than intended.

But my point was only to highlight it as to what I valued and why. I can't tell anyone else what to believe. If a person here thinks I'm wrong and off base, then they dismiss it as one man's opinion and move on. I don't look down on anyone, because I've got plenty of sins of my own that probably make me a worse sinner than anyone here. I was only pointing out that from my pov, people lose something of value whether they realize it or not. If you believe I'm wrong on that, then what I said holds no value or meaning to you. I am not attempting nor can I force anyone here to believe anything. You make that call and live your life, and whatever those consequences are, they are what they are. End of story. What I think about it has little to no bearing on it.

So for anyone else lurking and such who felt I went over the line, I apologize. Not for my views, which I believe, but in any way I presented it which may have come across as judging you for not living up to some perfect standard. That was not my intent. I simply got too worked up and went into venting mode and let my pain out. My bad.

But I do feel the loss for my daughter who, like any good father, I wanted the best for her. And for what I lost in the affair with my W. What we are all here dealing with in one way or another.

Does your daughter know you know about how she lost her virginity? Also, how do you know what she has been up to in college?

Lisette,

Yes, she knows I know. This went on during 2004-2005. I told my priest about what was going on, and he encouraged me to confront her on it, so I took her to dinner one day and we sat down and discussed it. Naturally, a bit uncomfortable for her, but me as well. Because while I had every right, being her father and she was using my computer, I still didn't feel good about spying on her. And in the end I guess it didn't do a whole lot other than give us the opportunity to talk about it all a lot.

On her college activities, that's another story. I'll see if I can condense it. My daughter was friends with a girl from church. This girl was rebelling from her mother even more so than my daughter did from us. Although it wasn't true, her mother (not being totally together mentally) decided her daughter was going rogue because of my daughter's influence. While my daughter was in college, she chatted with her friend at an online "private" group. But the friend's mother was monitoring the daughter's computer activity with a program that allowed her to not only see what her daughter was typing, but to save what my daughter was typing and screen shots. So her mother kept sending us snippets of what our daughter was doing in college.

She wanted us to get her to stop contacting her daughter, but not tell them she was monitoring it. But for some reason she thought we should have the ability to force her to stop while she was miles away in college. We did talk to her, and I strongly emphasized that on the net, nothing is private and you have to treat all communication as if at some point your mother will read this. And that it was best she didn't contact her friend because of the issues with her mom and she was a minor while my daughter was a legal adult.

But she didn't listen, as tended to be the case. And not too long after that in a chat with the girl, she joked about taking her from the Easter service and going out for a group sex party. Well, that hit the fan. The mother shared it with the priest, and the priest banned her from attending church that Easter. It all sort of went downhill from there for a while. There's a lot more to the story, but that's the gist of it.

The good news is she's pretty much come out of all that and is with a good guy and they are getting married this April. So her life at this point is headed in a good direction, but naturally I was still sad for what she lost, and we'll have to wait and see if this relationship holds firm.