Infidelity Support Group
Any relationship in which one partner engages willfully in sexual relations with another outside of the partnership is considered to have experienced infidelity. This breach of trust is often traumatizing for the faithful partner as well as the relationship, and support is often needed to heal emotionally and to decide whether or not the relationship should continue after...
Something struck me today (no, not my wife's backhand) and I had a thought. Wondered if my experience coincided with that of others in this regard, of both sexes. Not my specific experience I'm about to relate, mind you, but the point I'll bring up out of it.
My first semester in college, 1979, I started dating my first time seriously. And she instigated things mostly, as I was naive in the ways of dating and such, not having done any of it during high school, as it just wasn't on my radar screen as something I wanted to do. Other factors but that's mostly it.
Anyway, we dated that whole first semester, and when I came back from Christmas break, she met me and told me that she'd fallen out of love with me. Which seemed very odd to me. But we broke up at that point. By the end of the second semester, she was getting what she really wanted from me, but I was going way too slow for her. She got her Mrs. degree from another guy in school so she didn't have to go back home for the summer semester.
Well, during that first semester, despite spending hours every evening kissing and cuddling, I never once touched her breast with my hands or attempted to take her clothes off, or the like. One time she asked if she could rub my belly. I said sure. She unbuttoned my shirt and did so, slowly nudging her fingers slightly under my belt and pants, but never going more than a quarter inch in.
I think she was trying to get me going, but she didn't want to be the one to initiate sex. She wanted me to get excited and want her. The fact I didn't respond that way probably disappointed her, because she probably got the idea that I didn't want her.
But that was far from the truth. The fact of the matter was that I respected her too much to use her like that. Because I loved her, I wouldn't treat her like a sex object. What I've come to realize, is she wanted me to treat her like a sex object. She'd read one too many romance novels, and when I didn't respond like the guys in those novels, she "fell out of love" with me.
That got me to thinking, because my W so wanted the attention of men, and wanted men to notice her, and is what got her in trouble. And the first guy she had mostly an EA with, she knew he would only use her and throw her away when he was done, but she didn't care.
I was perplexed about that, because I was astounded that she didn't respect herself more than that. To me, being willing to be used as a sex object means you have zero respect for yourself, giving away the pearls of your life for a wink and a nod. I don't get it at all.
Now, I know statistics show that women tend to have more self-esteem issues than men. I know that girl I dated had some serious self-esteem issues. She would say things like, "No one would want me, my breast are too small." Despite my assurances that I loved her and didn't think they were too small, she felt unattractive. And I guess the fact I didn't want to have sex with her out of respect for her dignity as a person was translated in her mind that I didn't love her, didn't want her.
Likewise, my W was much skinner and sexier when I dated her than she was when she felt skinny and sexy before and during the affair, plus she didn't have loose skin back then due to pregnancies. But no matter how I told her back then that she wasn't fat, she didn't believe me. She felt fat and unattractive.
So I'm wondering just how much of a role women play in the whole cheating thing? I mean, of course for every man there is a woman who participated (assuming heterosexual cheating). But I'm thinking there is a dynamic here that promotes this kind of behavior.
First, you have the men who are often sex driven and want to get it anyway they can, or just the excitement of a relationship. But then there are the women who seem to send out signals, "Here I am, I'm available and want you!"
When I told my W that I do sometimes glance at women's butts, but I don't want them to see me, she stated something like most women like to know they are being appreciated. And I have to admit, why would you dress to accentuate your physical features if you didn't want them to be admired. But still, I would feel very uncomfortable if I were them dressing like that or knowing that someone was examining my butt. Not smiling and happy about it.
To me, this just shows a lack of respect for ones self, and a self-esteem that needs stoking to be willing to be treated as a sex object. I had always operated under the premise that most women didn't want to be treated that way. That they would respect themselves enough not to stoop to that level. But now I'm not sure how true that assumption is. My W was literally sending out "I'm sexy" vibes and it attracted men, even though she's not a "hot model" type body. Not bad by any means, but not the stereotypical Barbie figure either. Still, just her attitude made her sexy because her self-esteem needed that affirmation, and she didn't respect herself enough to not be thrown on the altar of being a sex toy.
So am I off on this? Do women become men magnets by acting flirty and sexy result from a lack of self-respect and/or self-esteem that they are wiling to throw themselves at men without any kind of long term commitment to family that the act presupposes? Or is there some other dynamic I'm missing here?
And I guess that also goes back to Leona's assertions of women who become enablers for some of the same reasons.
My first semester in college, 1979, I started dating my first time seriously. And she instigated things mostly, as I was naive in the ways of dating and such, not having done any of it during high school, as it just wasn't on my radar screen as something I wanted to do. Other factors but that's mostly it.
Anyway, we dated that whole first semester, and when I came back from Christmas break, she met me and told me that she'd fallen out of love with me. Which seemed very odd to me. But we broke up at that point. By the end of the second semester, she was getting what she really wanted from me, but I was going way too slow for her. She got her Mrs. degree from another guy in school so she didn't have to go back home for the summer semester.
Well, during that first semester, despite spending hours every evening kissing and cuddling, I never once touched her breast with my hands or attempted to take her clothes off, or the like. One time she asked if she could rub my belly. I said sure. She unbuttoned my shirt and did so, slowly nudging her fingers slightly under my belt and pants, but never going more than a quarter inch in.
I think she was trying to get me going, but she didn't want to be the one to initiate sex. She wanted me to get excited and want her. The fact I didn't respond that way probably disappointed her, because she probably got the idea that I didn't want her.
But that was far from the truth. The fact of the matter was that I respected her too much to use her like that. Because I loved her, I wouldn't treat her like a sex object. What I've come to realize, is she wanted me to treat her like a sex object. She'd read one too many romance novels, and when I didn't respond like the guys in those novels, she "fell out of love" with me.
That got me to thinking, because my W so wanted the attention of men, and wanted men to notice her, and is what got her in trouble. And the first guy she had mostly an EA with, she knew he would only use her and throw her away when he was done, but she didn't care.
I was perplexed about that, because I was astounded that she didn't respect herself more than that. To me, being willing to be used as a sex object means you have zero respect for yourself, giving away the pearls of your life for a wink and a nod. I don't get it at all.
Now, I know statistics show that women tend to have more self-esteem issues than men. I know that girl I dated had some serious self-esteem issues. She would say things like, "No one would want me, my breast are too small." Despite my assurances that I loved her and didn't think they were too small, she felt unattractive. And I guess the fact I didn't want to have sex with her out of respect for her dignity as a person was translated in her mind that I didn't love her, didn't want her.
Likewise, my W was much skinner and sexier when I dated her than she was when she felt skinny and sexy before and during the affair, plus she didn't have loose skin back then due to pregnancies. But no matter how I told her back then that she wasn't fat, she didn't believe me. She felt fat and unattractive.
So I'm wondering just how much of a role women play in the whole cheating thing? I mean, of course for every man there is a woman who participated (assuming heterosexual cheating). But I'm thinking there is a dynamic here that promotes this kind of behavior.
First, you have the men who are often sex driven and want to get it anyway they can, or just the excitement of a relationship. But then there are the women who seem to send out signals, "Here I am, I'm available and want you!"
When I told my W that I do sometimes glance at women's butts, but I don't want them to see me, she stated something like most women like to know they are being appreciated. And I have to admit, why would you dress to accentuate your physical features if you didn't want them to be admired. But still, I would feel very uncomfortable if I were them dressing like that or knowing that someone was examining my butt. Not smiling and happy about it.
To me, this just shows a lack of respect for ones self, and a self-esteem that needs stoking to be willing to be treated as a sex object. I had always operated under the premise that most women didn't want to be treated that way. That they would respect themselves enough not to stoop to that level. But now I'm not sure how true that assumption is. My W was literally sending out "I'm sexy" vibes and it attracted men, even though she's not a "hot model" type body. Not bad by any means, but not the stereotypical Barbie figure either. Still, just her attitude made her sexy because her self-esteem needed that affirmation, and she didn't respect herself enough to not be thrown on the altar of being a sex toy.
So am I off on this? Do women become men magnets by acting flirty and sexy result from a lack of self-respect and/or self-esteem that they are wiling to throw themselves at men without any kind of long term commitment to family that the act presupposes? Or is there some other dynamic I'm missing here?
And I guess that also goes back to Leona's assertions of women who become enablers for some of the same reasons.
" I don't believe however,that by respecting women he is disrespecting them."
HE said he is respecting woman....he attempts to make this point.
Do I believe that is WHY he didn't have sex with a woman he loved before marriage out of respect for HER.......HELL NO. ..HELL NO. You can believe this if you want to, but he doesn't have me sold.
"Women's liberation came w/ a price even though it was a good thing. Our kids have suffered b/c most women work. Some stay home until the kids go to school,but then they go to work. But, the kids still need a parent at home...... or they get into trouble. Not saying that women shouldn't work. It is just very difficult to juggle everything."
Yes, most things come with a price, and I agree with the above. The missing thing is......what if movement did not occur? We can speculate that things would be better in some ways and worse in others.
Women's Lib? The positive outweighs the negative, for sure! Women have lost a part of their femininity that I don't think we should have lost. Some men say... Hey they want to be in a man's world... Let's give it to em'. It got a little twisted up but is working anyway. Women used to have to suffer abuse of every kind and have nowhere to turn. Abortion is not for me but I am pro-choice. All good shit!
Men do what I call fishing... They say or do something and wait for the signal.
I used to get hit on all the time b4 marriage. I wondered why it harldy ever happens anymore. I don't look any different than I used to, despite 3 kids. I am just not giving out the vibes anymore.
I can't for sure say it is lack of self esteem/respect but it is b/c they want to project that they are willing and available to be pursued. There is prob more to it, but that is how I see it right now.
I have to say that this is at least the second post where I've read about the condition of Gab's loose post pregnancy skin and knowing that she reads here too just makes me cringe. I know you are the BS in this scenario Cole but your comments seem to me a way to hurt her while still maintaining that you love her anyway. I'm not a psychiatrist or psychologist but that does seem kind of passive aggressive.
I would not find your words at all comforting if I were your wife.
Okay, several threads about my experiences and beliefs:
My wife's body. You have a point. I double-checked with my W, and she did say she was okay with it. But that said, the flabby skin thing was probably more detail than needed for the point. Note, these are never things I would say to any other group, to anyone we know. But she honestly doesn't care about it here, so I guess I've felt freer to mention it when it made the point. That said, I understand the uncomfortableness with it, and I'll work to keep that in mind in future instances. But the point I was making was despite not having a Playboy sexy model body, she was attracting attention.
For example, I think I mentioned either in a post or on my journal about his guy that has been approaching my W. During the A, when she felt sexy and wanted men's attention, she visited a hotdog stand on a frequent basis. This guy there, who she says she was never interested in, did some flirty comments to her. And since dday and her getting out of that fog, he has waved and blown kisses at her when seeing her on the road. And interestingly enough (I was beginning to think he was following her) she bumped into him at Wal-Mart, and he was acting all like he wanted her number because he wanted his house cleaned, etc. She didn't trust him, but it would have been odd for her to not give out her number under those circumstances, so she did. But we both worried that he would start texting her or call her for a job at his house in the hopes of more happening.
Well, he hasn't texted or called and it has been close to four weeks now since that happened. And it made me realize what probably happened. He was sensing her sexy vibes before, but now getting to talk with her I think he didn't pick up on that any longer, instead what he felt was uncomfortableness, and a coldness in how she responded to him. (I was listening in on her bluetooth at the time he approached her.) A definite difference that he seems to have picked upon between how she was before dday and after. I guess he got the message that she is no longer available.
On Blind thinking I'm lying. Well, all I can say is I'm not. That's how I felt at the time and still feel about it. Whether she wanted it or not wasn't the point, I knew I would be stealing something from her. I couldn't do it for that reason.
On my gf and that situation: Keep in mind, this was my first time dating. I was naive about it all, and thought hugging and kissing, heavy petting, was what people did during dating, but not have sex. Those parts, in my mind, were totally off limits.
And as I've said in times past, I'm very bad at picking up on hints and reading people's minds. Especially when I don't know what those hints are. I would have had no idea that rubbing my belly was a code action for wanting to give me a BJ. All I could think about as she did that was, "Dang, I hope she doesn't go down there. What will i do if she does? Do I have the fortitude to stop her?" And it was a big relief to me when she didn't go there, and to this day I'm very glad she didn't. It would have potentially stole something I highly valued from me.
But keep in mind that for me, sex wasn't even on the table. I didn't interpret anything she did as "I want sex, and I want it now." I just considered it as part of the petting, what you did until you could have sex. Marriage and sex weren't even on the radar for me that point. It is only in retrospect that I realized what she was trying to do.
I wasn't making any decisions for her. If she wanted to find someone to have sex with, she could, but I wasn't going to be an accessory to damaging her life whether she believed that's what she was doing or not. If I had realized what she was wanting me to do at that time, and i didn't, I still would not have has sex. But at least if I knew at the time, we could have discussed it. As it was, I didn't even consider it an option, because I respected her as a person and didn't want to take advantage of her in that way. I know many believe I wouldn't have been doing so. Okay, that is your view. But I would have been violating my morals to do that.
For me, sex is a treasure to be shared with the one person you care for. It means something special then. It has value and bonding for the two. It isn't something you've devalued by treating it as common and ordinary. If you have a different view, fine. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to live their life.
But it wasn't just what she would have wanted in that case. I was involved too. And if I had been more aware of what was going on, we'd probably have had a discussion about it. As it was, being we were both Christians, at a Christian college, and I naively assumed most every Christian held the same values, it never crossed my mind to discuss this with her. Marriage and sex were not on the radar screen then and I had no expectation that we would be getting serious enough to think about sex.
The fact that our fallen biological drive is to have sex doesn't factor into this. We are not merely animals, driven by instinct and drives we can't control. We do have control, and it betters our lives to do so. If you chose not to, that's your decision. As we said, you are all adults. You have your own values. I'm not deciding for anyone.
But I was part of the party involved and my values are not tossed out in favor of her values, which I realize after the fact were not my own.
And she has gone on to have at least three marriages, and the last we heard, which was several years ago, she had divorced her third time. She last told us she doesn't feel she is cut out for relationships. I can't recall how many kids she had, at least two.
One time when my soon to be W and I traveled we went to visit her. She and my W were good friends (actually how I first met my future W was through her). And she told my soon to be W, "Hold onto him. He is a good man." I think that was after her second divorce and she was living with her parents at the time. But I heard in that statement that she respected me because I didn't take advantage of her back then, and she realizes she was headed down a destructive road in retrospect. I was sad to see her do that to herself, but glad at least I didn't participate in it.
So maybe now you can see why when I was sex deprived five years into my marriage and feeling like my W didn't love me, that I couldn't go through with the idea of cheating on her. As much as my sex drive wanted to be satisfied, as much as I wanted to feel loved, I could not to that to her, to another woman, or to the kids. If my morals were different, my guess is i would have gone looking for a woman. After all, it's just sex, right? Everyone's doing it, why not me? No, I don't feel I should degrade it down the the level of being an animal. We were created for better than that.
But that's where I stand. I'm not making decisions for anyone but me. I understand if others don't share my view. I'm not here to tell everyone what to believe. But I do believe for me that sex outside of marriage is destructive to a relationship and future relationships, whether the person realizes it or not.
If you feel like I'm judging you, I'm not. I don't have to. If what I'm saying is true, you've already experienced the results of that if you've had multiple partners prior to marriage, and you will never experience the other side of the fence (so naturally it is convenient to believe it doesn't exist). If I'm wrong, then you have nothing to worry about.
So, the question is, if a woman has self-respect for herself, do you believe this would make them less likely to participate in sex in a non-meaningful manner? IOW, like my daughter losing her virginity at a group sex party to a stranger. Or being willing to be used by a man as primarily a sex toy? Or cause them to not prostitute themselves?
Not making generalizations, just trying to discover if what I've picked up on in the few women I've known, if this plays over into others experiences as well.
As I've stated, I knew she was okay with that. I know she reads this and she is not offended or feel bad about it. She would feel bad about it if I posted it someplace like FB, which I would never do.
But I can understand if this makes some of you feel uncomfortable. The fact is I love my wife's body. I don't want the Playboy model if it means giving up her. She'll never look like that, because he bones and shape simply doesn't match that. But that is okay. I don't need that perfection to be happy with her. If I did, I wouldn't have started dating her in the first place.
And she knows I loved her body, even when she was 260 pounds. I think she looks great having lost all that weight, now down to 200, or a little below. We are close to the same weight for a while, she was actually less than me at one point. And my pudgy belly isn't huge, but its there. Nothing like the flat stomach I had in my twenties when I could eat to my heart's content, whatever I wanted, and not gain a pound. Now I think the food just sits in my belly and decides that's as good a place to park as any.
By my W does want a tummy tuck to get rid of the "apron" from losing all that weight. And if my books ever take off and make me some dollars, I'll get that operation for her. But I love her body, every bit of loose skin, because it is mine and I've committed myself to her, and I love her. As she's told me even today, that loose skin for her is a badge of honor because it wouldn't be there if she hadn't lost 80 pounds. I love her body when she was a teen and we were married at 160 pounds, and she thought she was fat then, and when she was at 260 pounds after our third child and where she was at for most of our marriage, and now at 200 pounds as she has bounded back up slightly from a low of around 180.
To me it is a healthy sign when you can look at things as they are and be content and satisfied with them. That's where she is at, and I am at. I never say things with the intent to hurt her, and this doesn't or I wouldn't do it.
But if it hurts some of you for me to say it, I'll try to remember to refrain. I'm just glad that her self-esteem is much better about it all now. Shows she's grown and developed as a person. For the first years of our marriage she didn't like to be naked in front of me. She would wear a nightgown to bed. At some point, she stopped caring and she sleeps naked and loves being naked with me. I accept her as she is without expecting her to change to society's ideal of a beauty model. She knows it, and knows I love her body. And I wouldn't want her any other way than what she is. And no matter what beauty model comes across my path, they could never hold a candle to her. Because beauty is much deeper than the skin, and boy has she got it. I wouldn't trade her in for anyone else.
I am out of time, but I will comment about your daughter later. I am so sorry she did that. If she has no regrets now..... she will later. I am not judging her AT ALL.
Wow, Cole, if this isn't the question of the ages...
Wow...
I do consider myself very at home with my sensuality, but Cole, I can only speak for myself. And that 'being at home' came with age. Time.
So, speaking just for me, I dont think a woman who holds her own self respect, and values herself, participates in sex in a non-meaningful manner.
BUT I do think women can decide for themselves, individually. Some could go out there and just have sex with someone. But could I?
Just me?
Just little ol' me?
Nope.
L~
"I don't want the Playboy model if it means giving up her. She'll never look like that, because he bones and shape simply doesn't match that. But that is okay. I don't need that perfection to be happy with her"
What if she said on here,
"Yeah, we know Cole doesn't have a pornstar peter. He'll never be large because his shape simply doesn't match that. But its ok, I don't need perfection.".
Oh, I don't think you are lying, I really think you believe this.....but the fact is.......it's not the real reason.
COLE- STOP IT!! None of wants to be reminded about our imperfections. They exist, but what right do you have to comment on it. Still passive agressive.
Oh, I don't think you are lying, I really think you believe this.....but the fact is.......it's not the real reason.
COLE- STOP IT!! None of wants to be reminded about our imperfections. They exist, but what right do you have to comment on it. Still passive agressive.