Infidelity Support Group
Any relationship in which one partner engages willfully in sexual relations with another outside of the partnership is considered to have experienced infidelity. This breach of trust is often traumatizing for the faithful partner as well as the relationship, and support is often needed to heal emotionally and to decide whether or not the relationship should continue after...
Cole50
Something struck me today (no, not my wife's backhand) and I had a thought. Wondered if my experience coincided with that of others in this regard, of both sexes. Not my specific experience I'm about to relate, mind you, but the point I'll bring up out of it.
My first semester in college, 1979, I started dating my first time seriously. And she instigated things mostly, as I was naive in the ways of dating and such, not having done any of it during high school, as it just wasn't on my radar screen as something I wanted to do. Other factors but that's mostly it.
Anyway, we dated that whole first semester, and when I came back from Christmas break, she met me and told me that she'd fallen out of love with me. Which seemed very odd to me. But we broke up at that point. By the end of the second semester, she was getting what she really wanted from me, but I was going way too slow for her. She got her Mrs. degree from another guy in school so she didn't have to go back home for the summer semester.
Well, during that first semester, despite spending hours every evening kissing and cuddling, I never once touched her breast with my hands or attempted to take her clothes off, or the like. One time she asked if she could rub my belly. I said sure. She unbuttoned my shirt and did so, slowly nudging her fingers slightly under my belt and pants, but never going more than a quarter inch in.
I think she was trying to get me going, but she didn't want to be the one to initiate sex. She wanted me to get excited and want her. The fact I didn't respond that way probably disappointed her, because she probably got the idea that I didn't want her.
But that was far from the truth. The fact of the matter was that I respected her too much to use her like that. Because I loved her, I wouldn't treat her like a sex object. What I've come to realize, is she wanted me to treat her like a sex object. She'd read one too many romance novels, and when I didn't respond like the guys in those novels, she "fell out of love" with me.
That got me to thinking, because my W so wanted the attention of men, and wanted men to notice her, and is what got her in trouble. And the first guy she had mostly an EA with, she knew he would only use her and throw her away when he was done, but she didn't care.
I was perplexed about that, because I was astounded that she didn't respect herself more than that. To me, being willing to be used as a sex object means you have zero respect for yourself, giving away the pearls of your life for a wink and a nod. I don't get it at all.
Now, I know statistics show that women tend to have more self-esteem issues than men. I know that girl I dated had some serious self-esteem issues. She would say things like, "No one would want me, my breast are too small." Despite my assurances that I loved her and didn't think they were too small, she felt unattractive. And I guess the fact I didn't want to have sex with her out of respect for her dignity as a person was translated in her mind that I didn't love her, didn't want her.
Likewise, my W was much skinner and sexier when I dated her than she was when she felt skinny and sexy before and during the affair, plus she didn't have loose skin back then due to pregnancies. But no matter how I told her back then that she wasn't fat, she didn't believe me. She felt fat and unattractive.
So I'm wondering just how much of a role women play in the whole cheating thing? I mean, of course for every man there is a woman who participated (assuming heterosexual cheating). But I'm thinking there is a dynamic here that promotes this kind of behavior.
First, you have the men who are often sex driven and want to get it anyway they can, or just the excitement of a relationship. But then there are the women who seem to send out signals, "Here I am, I'm available and want you!"
When I told my W that I do sometimes glance at women's butts, but I don't want them to see me, she stated something like most women like to know they are being appreciated. And I have to admit, why would you dress to accentuate your physical features if you didn't want them to be admired. But still, I would feel very uncomfortable if I were them dressing like that or knowing that someone was examining my butt. Not smiling and happy about it.
To me, this just shows a lack of respect for ones self, and a self-esteem that needs stoking to be willing to be treated as a sex object. I had always operated under the premise that most women didn't want to be treated that way. That they would respect themselves enough not to stoop to that level. But now I'm not sure how true that assumption is. My W was literally sending out "I'm sexy" vibes and it attracted men, even though she's not a "hot model" type body. Not bad by any means, but not the stereotypical Barbie figure either. Still, just her attitude made her sexy because her self-esteem needed that affirmation, and she didn't respect herself enough to not be thrown on the altar of being a sex toy.
So am I off on this? Do women become men magnets by acting flirty and sexy result from a lack of self-respect and/or self-esteem that they are wiling to throw themselves at men without any kind of long term commitment to family that the act presupposes? Or is there some other dynamic I'm missing here?
And I guess that also goes back to Leona's assertions of women who become enablers for some of the same reasons.
My first semester in college, 1979, I started dating my first time seriously. And she instigated things mostly, as I was naive in the ways of dating and such, not having done any of it during high school, as it just wasn't on my radar screen as something I wanted to do. Other factors but that's mostly it.
Anyway, we dated that whole first semester, and when I came back from Christmas break, she met me and told me that she'd fallen out of love with me. Which seemed very odd to me. But we broke up at that point. By the end of the second semester, she was getting what she really wanted from me, but I was going way too slow for her. She got her Mrs. degree from another guy in school so she didn't have to go back home for the summer semester.
Well, during that first semester, despite spending hours every evening kissing and cuddling, I never once touched her breast with my hands or attempted to take her clothes off, or the like. One time she asked if she could rub my belly. I said sure. She unbuttoned my shirt and did so, slowly nudging her fingers slightly under my belt and pants, but never going more than a quarter inch in.
I think she was trying to get me going, but she didn't want to be the one to initiate sex. She wanted me to get excited and want her. The fact I didn't respond that way probably disappointed her, because she probably got the idea that I didn't want her.
But that was far from the truth. The fact of the matter was that I respected her too much to use her like that. Because I loved her, I wouldn't treat her like a sex object. What I've come to realize, is she wanted me to treat her like a sex object. She'd read one too many romance novels, and when I didn't respond like the guys in those novels, she "fell out of love" with me.
That got me to thinking, because my W so wanted the attention of men, and wanted men to notice her, and is what got her in trouble. And the first guy she had mostly an EA with, she knew he would only use her and throw her away when he was done, but she didn't care.
I was perplexed about that, because I was astounded that she didn't respect herself more than that. To me, being willing to be used as a sex object means you have zero respect for yourself, giving away the pearls of your life for a wink and a nod. I don't get it at all.
Now, I know statistics show that women tend to have more self-esteem issues than men. I know that girl I dated had some serious self-esteem issues. She would say things like, "No one would want me, my breast are too small." Despite my assurances that I loved her and didn't think they were too small, she felt unattractive. And I guess the fact I didn't want to have sex with her out of respect for her dignity as a person was translated in her mind that I didn't love her, didn't want her.
Likewise, my W was much skinner and sexier when I dated her than she was when she felt skinny and sexy before and during the affair, plus she didn't have loose skin back then due to pregnancies. But no matter how I told her back then that she wasn't fat, she didn't believe me. She felt fat and unattractive.
So I'm wondering just how much of a role women play in the whole cheating thing? I mean, of course for every man there is a woman who participated (assuming heterosexual cheating). But I'm thinking there is a dynamic here that promotes this kind of behavior.
First, you have the men who are often sex driven and want to get it anyway they can, or just the excitement of a relationship. But then there are the women who seem to send out signals, "Here I am, I'm available and want you!"
When I told my W that I do sometimes glance at women's butts, but I don't want them to see me, she stated something like most women like to know they are being appreciated. And I have to admit, why would you dress to accentuate your physical features if you didn't want them to be admired. But still, I would feel very uncomfortable if I were them dressing like that or knowing that someone was examining my butt. Not smiling and happy about it.
To me, this just shows a lack of respect for ones self, and a self-esteem that needs stoking to be willing to be treated as a sex object. I had always operated under the premise that most women didn't want to be treated that way. That they would respect themselves enough not to stoop to that level. But now I'm not sure how true that assumption is. My W was literally sending out "I'm sexy" vibes and it attracted men, even though she's not a "hot model" type body. Not bad by any means, but not the stereotypical Barbie figure either. Still, just her attitude made her sexy because her self-esteem needed that affirmation, and she didn't respect herself enough to not be thrown on the altar of being a sex toy.
So am I off on this? Do women become men magnets by acting flirty and sexy result from a lack of self-respect and/or self-esteem that they are wiling to throw themselves at men without any kind of long term commitment to family that the act presupposes? Or is there some other dynamic I'm missing here?
And I guess that also goes back to Leona's assertions of women who become enablers for some of the same reasons.
I would love to have a husband like you.
I'm just the opposite of the women you are describing. I don't like when a man looks at me like i am a sex object. I would rather have a man that respects me.
It is ok to ogle, touch, desire your wife. It is expected. In the very.least. if you loved that girl in college, you should have asked her about her expectations and not tried to make decisions for her. Adults get to decide if they want sex. They are not bad for wanting it in a committed relationship. It doesn't mean she was lacking self esteem.
Women dress nicely for themselves, not you. Some women are confident and sexy. Rarely is self consciousness considered sexy.
Cheaters have low self esteems. Not "women who are men magnets". PEOPLE with low self esteem seek validation from others.
Honestly, I think you are way too caught up in making generalizations about women.
Also, your comments on your wife's appearance I find rude. Especially considering I know she reads here. There are ways to say you still love and appreciate your wife's body without also pointing out her flaws. It's like saying "I love you, but...". It's quite rude IMO.
I wasn't talking about married folk. Of course I know it is fine to want my W like that and appreciate her beauty. And I do think she is beautiful. But she knows she isn't a model body, and that I don't think she has to be to be beautiful to me. But I'm talking about the fact that even though she doesn't have that super sexy model body that men open up Playboy to salivate over, her attitude and feeling sexy, even though as a teen she was much more physically skinny and sexy from society's standards, (as was I, I'm not nearly as shapely in the bodily department as I was in my younger days), that despite that, she still attracted men's attention because she was sending out sexy vibes...not sure how else to describe it. For the first time in her life, she got noticed by other men.
Anyway, she's okay with those descriptions. She knows how much I like her body. Just because she doesn't have a body that looks like a Playboy model doesn't matter to me. It is her character that makes her lovely and her smile, and her eyes, and I love the rest of her as well. That stuff doesn't make a bit of difference to me and she knows it. So I don't think I was being rude. We both talk about it this way.
Anyway, relating to my first gf you said: if you loved that girl in college, you should have asked her about her expectations and not tried to make decisions for her. Adults get to decide if they want sex.
The point is that I respected her too much to do that to her. I wouldn't have willing had sex with her, even if I had realized at the time that's what she wanted, because that is inappropriate before marriage. To this date, my W is the only one I've ever had sex with. Because to me, sex is more than having fun, or just expressing love, it is a commitment to bond, to have a family if that's the out come. It is a life long commitment to have sex. It is part of what it means to be married.
I understand not everyone shares that view. But that's where I'm coming from. For me, it would have been stealing from her to have sex with her without committing to a life-long relationship with her. To me, that would be to disrespect her, to treat sex as an end in itself, and her as a tool for my own pleasure. As a sex object. And that reduces her down to just a play thing in my mind. Three months of dating doesn't get you to the place where love is more than a feeling and selfish, to the point of true love, where you are ready to commit yourself totally to another person.
But I know others have different philosophies on that and sex isn't much more than mutually shared fun time or feelings of love, without the commitment of a marriage to another. But I've never seen it that way, is all.
And I'm not attempting to generalize here, but relate my experience to see how widespread others have experienced this, or not, to learn. It's just I've always seen stuff like people doing porn and like my daughter losing her virginity to a guy she didn't know at a group sex party as treating what should be sacred and of high value, reserved for that someone special and intimate, and just throwing those pearls out into the middle of the street for anyone to trample on or pick up. I guess I have a different value system when it comes to sex, and so something I place such a high value on as it concerns the exclusive intimacy of it, it comes across when others treat it like it is common goods, as devaluing it, and thus themselves.
I think if more men respected the women they held dear to their hearts, they wouldn't be so quick to hop on them before committing themselves to them, nor so quick to hop on someone else once committed to that person in marriage. Sex is a physical bond of marriage, and to do it, is to join with another. One shouldn't do that lightly.
But like I said, that isn't a popular view in today's society, and one many don't live up to even if they believe it. But that's why I think that way.
It is appropriate to discuss your views with people you date, not make them wonder. Because, as you said, repeatedly, not everyone shares this view.
Woman like to have sex like men do. Love and sex are not the same thing.
People in college (and elsewhere), including woman of course.... have sex like rabbits. It is not a reflection of their self respect or esteem. YOUNG PEOPLE LIKE TO FUCK BECAUSE THEY ARE BIOLOGICALLY PROGRAMMED TO DO SO.
Despite your puritanical views on this matter, I want to focus on two sentences you here that I think is the key to this whole thing.
"I guess the fact I didn't want to have sex with her out of respect for her dignity as a person was translated in her mind that I didn't love her, didn't want her."
She wanted to get laid my friend. She was fishing for a compliment when she said her breasts are too small. She said nobody would want her to prompt you to say I DO!
"One time she asked if she could rub my belly. I said sure. She unbuttoned my shirt and did so, slowly nudging her fingers slightly under my belt and pants, but never going more than a quarter inch in. I think she was trying to get me going, but she didn't want to be the one to initiate sex. She wanted me to get excited and want her. The fact I didn't respond that way probably disappointed her, because she probably got the idea that I didn't want her."
Dude, rub your belly is CODE for blow job. A college aged man that does not react to being touched like this would seem practically dead to a woman. Fuck.....even the POPE would rip off his robe in this situation. How can you say PROBABLY GOT THE IDEA.......seriously Cole.....what exactly do you need a written invitation?
Were you jacking off daily in college, disrespecting woman that were willing to have sex with men whom they did not love?
That's like a personal prison sentence. You live in the prison of your own mind.
Nothing wrong with that.
Maybe you and your wife have a bit of a history together and came to your current place with sex thru time. So be it.
...But I wouldn't let what Leona said about enabling shake your personal standards. Cuz you have some good ones. Personally, I'm not letting her shake mine.
Don't do it to yourself...L~
Your defined roles of how woman should think are what woman have fought against throughout the last century.
Cole, I have to say that you have some amazing insight and obviously love your wife very much but man, you really have talked about her physical appearance far too much. I mean there are posts where you describe her belly before, during and after the A in such great detail.
Can I just point out that as a woman who also has put some pounds since having children, you might want to stop mentioning and describing her body. Even if it doesn't offend her (and I would imagine it must), it does offend at least 2 of us here.
A personal standard is cool.
He is defining what woman should be like, not himself.
I do believe that a sexual relationship is at it's best when their is mutual love and respect. In my marriage, I have had the best sex I have ever had and it is b/c I trusted my heart, soul, mind w/ my H.These feelings allowe me to fully "let go" and lose all inhibition.
In a "just sex" R... there is always the doubt about performance or body types. I guess b/c both ppl are holding back emotionally.
I have learned never to say never! So, I will say this. I don't see myself having sex w/ anyone unless I feel the way I did w/ H.
Women who are "loose" many times are giving themselves away due to low self esteem. Also, their father didn't show them the unconditional secure love we women crave.
Show me a prostitute.... and I will show you a woman who has been abused. Show me a stripper,and I will show you a woman who has hardened herself against men and love due to some kind of hurt.
No young girl ever thought.... Hey I'm just going to get older and fuck anyone whenever and however.They are thinking ... I want to get married to someone awesome and be loved and have kids.
It's great to hold yourself to a certain standard.
"I do believe that a sexual relationship is at it's best when their is mutual love and respect. In my marriage, I have had the best sex I have ever had and it is b/c I trusted my heart"
Sure, I feel the same way.
My point is being missed.
Cheaters experience a boost in self esteem. That's why many of them do it. My guess is that is what men were reacting to, not some mysterious "I'm sexy vibe".
I don't agree with everything blind said but yes, I do believe your statements of women are very oppressive. Also, the "boobs are too small" comment probably came from something you said that they were, of course, totally ok with.
HERIN lies the rub (pun intended).
You are not stealing anything from a woman that wants to have sex with you. IT'S HER DECISION!!!!!
SHE IS NOT YOUR PLAYTHING....SHE WANTS TO HAVE SEX......MAYBE YOU ARE HER PLAYTHING. WHO SAID YOU ARE USING HER?
Let woman have their own opinions and make decisions on what they want to do with their own bodies.
Women's liberation came w/ a price even though it was a good thing. Our kids have suffered b/c most women work. Some stay home until the kids go to school,but then they go to work. But, the kids still need a parent at home...... or they get into trouble. Not saying that women shouldn't work. It is just very difficult to juggle everything.
...and then again, I do love having my Man respect me, open doors for me, lift heavy things for me...does that make sense?
...and no, I am not bipolar...LOL...I just think it's nice to have this, and be able to put aside my 'equal partner' thing once in a while, and just let myself be 'his woman.'
I never had that with my Ex H, and now I find I love this.
Does that make sense?
L~