Infidelity Support Group
Any relationship in which one partner engages willfully in sexual relations with another outside of the partnership is considered to have experienced infidelity. This breach of trust is often traumatizing for the faithful partner as well as the relationship, and support is often needed to heal emotionally and to decide whether or not the relationship should continue after...
Something struck me today (no, not my wife's backhand) and I had a thought. Wondered if my experience coincided with that of others in this regard, of both sexes. Not my specific experience I'm about to relate, mind you, but the point I'll bring up out of it.
My first semester in college, 1979, I started dating my first time seriously. And she instigated things mostly, as I was naive in the ways of dating and such, not having done any of it during high school, as it just wasn't on my radar screen as something I wanted to do. Other factors but that's mostly it.
Anyway, we dated that whole first semester, and when I came back from Christmas break, she met me and told me that she'd fallen out of love with me. Which seemed very odd to me. But we broke up at that point. By the end of the second semester, she was getting what she really wanted from me, but I was going way too slow for her. She got her Mrs. degree from another guy in school so she didn't have to go back home for the summer semester.
Well, during that first semester, despite spending hours every evening kissing and cuddling, I never once touched her breast with my hands or attempted to take her clothes off, or the like. One time she asked if she could rub my belly. I said sure. She unbuttoned my shirt and did so, slowly nudging her fingers slightly under my belt and pants, but never going more than a quarter inch in.
I think she was trying to get me going, but she didn't want to be the one to initiate sex. She wanted me to get excited and want her. The fact I didn't respond that way probably disappointed her, because she probably got the idea that I didn't want her.
But that was far from the truth. The fact of the matter was that I respected her too much to use her like that. Because I loved her, I wouldn't treat her like a sex object. What I've come to realize, is she wanted me to treat her like a sex object. She'd read one too many romance novels, and when I didn't respond like the guys in those novels, she "fell out of love" with me.
That got me to thinking, because my W so wanted the attention of men, and wanted men to notice her, and is what got her in trouble. And the first guy she had mostly an EA with, she knew he would only use her and throw her away when he was done, but she didn't care.
I was perplexed about that, because I was astounded that she didn't respect herself more than that. To me, being willing to be used as a sex object means you have zero respect for yourself, giving away the pearls of your life for a wink and a nod. I don't get it at all.
Now, I know statistics show that women tend to have more self-esteem issues than men. I know that girl I dated had some serious self-esteem issues. She would say things like, "No one would want me, my breast are too small." Despite my assurances that I loved her and didn't think they were too small, she felt unattractive. And I guess the fact I didn't want to have sex with her out of respect for her dignity as a person was translated in her mind that I didn't love her, didn't want her.
Likewise, my W was much skinner and sexier when I dated her than she was when she felt skinny and sexy before and during the affair, plus she didn't have loose skin back then due to pregnancies. But no matter how I told her back then that she wasn't fat, she didn't believe me. She felt fat and unattractive.
So I'm wondering just how much of a role women play in the whole cheating thing? I mean, of course for every man there is a woman who participated (assuming heterosexual cheating). But I'm thinking there is a dynamic here that promotes this kind of behavior.
First, you have the men who are often sex driven and want to get it anyway they can, or just the excitement of a relationship. But then there are the women who seem to send out signals, "Here I am, I'm available and want you!"
When I told my W that I do sometimes glance at women's butts, but I don't want them to see me, she stated something like most women like to know they are being appreciated. And I have to admit, why would you dress to accentuate your physical features if you didn't want them to be admired. But still, I would feel very uncomfortable if I were them dressing like that or knowing that someone was examining my butt. Not smiling and happy about it.
To me, this just shows a lack of respect for ones self, and a self-esteem that needs stoking to be willing to be treated as a sex object. I had always operated under the premise that most women didn't want to be treated that way. That they would respect themselves enough not to stoop to that level. But now I'm not sure how true that assumption is. My W was literally sending out "I'm sexy" vibes and it attracted men, even though she's not a "hot model" type body. Not bad by any means, but not the stereotypical Barbie figure either. Still, just her attitude made her sexy because her self-esteem needed that affirmation, and she didn't respect herself enough to not be thrown on the altar of being a sex toy.
So am I off on this? Do women become men magnets by acting flirty and sexy result from a lack of self-respect and/or self-esteem that they are wiling to throw themselves at men without any kind of long term commitment to family that the act presupposes? Or is there some other dynamic I'm missing here?
And I guess that also goes back to Leona's assertions of women who become enablers for some of the same reasons.
My first semester in college, 1979, I started dating my first time seriously. And she instigated things mostly, as I was naive in the ways of dating and such, not having done any of it during high school, as it just wasn't on my radar screen as something I wanted to do. Other factors but that's mostly it.
Anyway, we dated that whole first semester, and when I came back from Christmas break, she met me and told me that she'd fallen out of love with me. Which seemed very odd to me. But we broke up at that point. By the end of the second semester, she was getting what she really wanted from me, but I was going way too slow for her. She got her Mrs. degree from another guy in school so she didn't have to go back home for the summer semester.
Well, during that first semester, despite spending hours every evening kissing and cuddling, I never once touched her breast with my hands or attempted to take her clothes off, or the like. One time she asked if she could rub my belly. I said sure. She unbuttoned my shirt and did so, slowly nudging her fingers slightly under my belt and pants, but never going more than a quarter inch in.
I think she was trying to get me going, but she didn't want to be the one to initiate sex. She wanted me to get excited and want her. The fact I didn't respond that way probably disappointed her, because she probably got the idea that I didn't want her.
But that was far from the truth. The fact of the matter was that I respected her too much to use her like that. Because I loved her, I wouldn't treat her like a sex object. What I've come to realize, is she wanted me to treat her like a sex object. She'd read one too many romance novels, and when I didn't respond like the guys in those novels, she "fell out of love" with me.
That got me to thinking, because my W so wanted the attention of men, and wanted men to notice her, and is what got her in trouble. And the first guy she had mostly an EA with, she knew he would only use her and throw her away when he was done, but she didn't care.
I was perplexed about that, because I was astounded that she didn't respect herself more than that. To me, being willing to be used as a sex object means you have zero respect for yourself, giving away the pearls of your life for a wink and a nod. I don't get it at all.
Now, I know statistics show that women tend to have more self-esteem issues than men. I know that girl I dated had some serious self-esteem issues. She would say things like, "No one would want me, my breast are too small." Despite my assurances that I loved her and didn't think they were too small, she felt unattractive. And I guess the fact I didn't want to have sex with her out of respect for her dignity as a person was translated in her mind that I didn't love her, didn't want her.
Likewise, my W was much skinner and sexier when I dated her than she was when she felt skinny and sexy before and during the affair, plus she didn't have loose skin back then due to pregnancies. But no matter how I told her back then that she wasn't fat, she didn't believe me. She felt fat and unattractive.
So I'm wondering just how much of a role women play in the whole cheating thing? I mean, of course for every man there is a woman who participated (assuming heterosexual cheating). But I'm thinking there is a dynamic here that promotes this kind of behavior.
First, you have the men who are often sex driven and want to get it anyway they can, or just the excitement of a relationship. But then there are the women who seem to send out signals, "Here I am, I'm available and want you!"
When I told my W that I do sometimes glance at women's butts, but I don't want them to see me, she stated something like most women like to know they are being appreciated. And I have to admit, why would you dress to accentuate your physical features if you didn't want them to be admired. But still, I would feel very uncomfortable if I were them dressing like that or knowing that someone was examining my butt. Not smiling and happy about it.
To me, this just shows a lack of respect for ones self, and a self-esteem that needs stoking to be willing to be treated as a sex object. I had always operated under the premise that most women didn't want to be treated that way. That they would respect themselves enough not to stoop to that level. But now I'm not sure how true that assumption is. My W was literally sending out "I'm sexy" vibes and it attracted men, even though she's not a "hot model" type body. Not bad by any means, but not the stereotypical Barbie figure either. Still, just her attitude made her sexy because her self-esteem needed that affirmation, and she didn't respect herself enough to not be thrown on the altar of being a sex toy.
So am I off on this? Do women become men magnets by acting flirty and sexy result from a lack of self-respect and/or self-esteem that they are wiling to throw themselves at men without any kind of long term commitment to family that the act presupposes? Or is there some other dynamic I'm missing here?
And I guess that also goes back to Leona's assertions of women who become enablers for some of the same reasons.
Ok so now for the part that has bothered me in the past and bothered me today. It is not explaining the weight as much as it is describing in detail on numerous occassional that your wife is NOT model beautiful, does not have a models body, has excess skin and is heavier now than when you first met. I get that we all change physically over the years and I will assume that a majority of bs and cs here don't fit the description of model looks. But the great length you go to explain is offensive. Like I said maybe not to Gabrielle but to women in general. I did get a passive aggressive sense a while ago (maybe a month ago) in a post when you went into a full paragraph about how unsexy your wife's body type was. But that she was confident and that is what made her feel sexy. I felt like you were saying then and today that well, she (I'm using my passive aggressive interpretation here) "she's kinda ugly, older, big boned with saggy skin and fat, nobody would actualy have A with her because they loved her, or were genuinely attracted to her, how could they? They were with her because she gave off her come and get me I'm easy scent, I will love her despite her saggy excess skin and big bones and not attractive face". "I'm the one man who will truely love her with all her physical abnormalities, and she knows that now, so she is ok with me telling everyone cause all other men will just use her saggy ass and toss her out"
Ok, ok, I know now that you were not thinking or feeling that way based on your responses to others who felt uncomfortable with your comments. But I had to be blunt with you and explain how as a woman, your repeated comments about her physical appearance was coming off to me personally. You two are obviously great people and working very hard at rebuilding and im not trying to attack you but simply trying to be very specific as to how your comments came off.
You said that you were descriptive when it was related to the post or response you were writing but I honestly don't think it needed the detail you put into it
I frequently say men are not mind readers and need clear and concise explanations and that is what I am trying to give you here. All you need to do is say, that like many woman your wife's body has change over time but her confidence was higher and that is what brought on the extra male attention. How her body change and all the things she isn't,we'll, it's just details that offend women in my personal opinion
Sorry for the extensive and blabbering post but this has been on my mind all day. I brought it up to a few woman and asked if their husbands described their body and physical appearance to them in that much detail, and they all had the same reaction. It was, along the lines of I would cry, or I would twist his saggy balls off.
I hope what I've said explains and just so you know how you explained it from your end helps
Generalizing is always sticky, and there are so many variables that play into an individual's behavior patterns. For women, their relationship with their father may play a role. When my parents divorced, at first I thought maybe I'd done something wrong, or that I could fix it somehow. My dad became scarce in my life. I felt abandoned by him. I think that played into how I processed my H leaving me and how I allowed myself to take blame in the beginning. I also think it played into how I viewed my relationships with guys when I was dating and, though I can't blame my dad for my actions, I think my desire to be "loved" and my fear of being left led me to some very poor decisions once upon a time.
I also think that if lack of self-esteem or self-respect is the cause of some sexual promiscuity, I feel some sympathy for that because something caused them to feel that way, and it wasn't good. I don't think people lack respect for themselves so they can act in a destructive way, they lack respect for themselves because that's what someone else taught them. And that's sad.
So do I think it is as simple as "people just wanna do it like rabbits"? No. People are not rabbits. I believe low self-esteem, along with the issues that caused it (or other emotional issues), definitely play a role in how people view sex and what it means in their lives. I think it also influences whether one can separate emotion from a particular action. Saying some can have sex without attachment or emotional connection isn't proof it doesn't need to exist.
Well, I can't make the point I was making without saying something about the fact that her body isn't something that would turn heads. Not ugly by any means. Not something people would run from. But the point was that it was her attitude that attracted men's attention. Obviously for them, her body wasn't a turn off. But I apparently can't say that even though that's the case.
But I understand those women who do have society's idea of a perfectly shaped body, get all sorts of unwanted attention no matter what vibes they are sending out. Men see a good looking butt or bosom and it draws their eyes.
You're suggested way of doing it loses the whole point, IMO. I did include more detail than I should have. After all, no one can see the skin under her clothes, so that wouldn't even be known to most men she talks to.
But I really don't understand what is the problem with acknowledging she doesn't have a model's body. Many women don't and it isn't bad that it's the case. Are women really that low on self-esteem that if they don't look like that, that they don't want to be reminded of that fact, or have it mentioned? Society is really messed up here.
You can't even state things as they are. You have to pretend everyone has a "perfect" body it seems. I don't know. Just doesn't make sense to me why it is that way. People should be free to talk about this as it is, not as they wish it would be.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Sexiness is all relative to the person you are sexy to. Again, it sounds like women have bought into a bill of goods that has sold them short. Barbie has done some great damage it seems, and why so many women tend to have low self-esteem.
I guess that's just the way it is and I should get used to it. I can't make that point any longer.
I guess it's all a matter perspective and the one you and your wife share is different than mine in this matter.
All I know is if we're my H describing my body the way you were hers and the frequency in which you have, I would be very hurt. That's all. I don't pretend to assume my husband hasn't noticed my weight gain. I've brought it up many times. He knows it is a sensitive subject and other than one comment when I goy prgo with number 3 , he never says anything other than if I want to lose because it makes me happier than I should. But I shouldn't do it thinking he wants it.
I think we can agree to disagree that we have different perspectives in this matter.
I mean, I'm no he-man. I'm not bad looking, but I wouldn't say my body would make women swoon either. It's fairly average for my age and size. But I don't care about that. And I can't imagine it bugging me.
Now, most of this may be because I'm a man, and we think about this differently. I don't know. Just guessing. But for the record, I'm not trying to find points to mention this. I only mention it when the subject fits what I'm talking about. So it has come up two or three times. That doesn't seem like a lot to me over the course of almost 9 months on these boards.
But like I said, apparently this is too sensitive a topic to talk plainly about, even if it is about my W and no one else, everyone applies it to how they feel and take it as a comment about all women or something.
I guess what I'm really saying here is that women should respect themselves enough to stand up for themselves, not be defined by the culture and past that says you have to look this way or be like this, or any of the negative messages we heard as we grew up, and be who we are, be content with who we are, and enjoy it. Change/fix what you want to and can, and accept the rest and be content. When that happens, you aren't threatened by messages to the contrary.
My W can't change her bone structure or body shape short of major surgery. Even before she lost her weight, she had become more comfortable with her body and accepted it, and I think is a good reason she has the attitude she does.
But I get it that such a message may be swimming upstream. The cultural messages are too prevalent and swift to turn that ship around for many. They feel they don't measure up and don't want to be reminded of it.
But I know, changing how you feel about something isn't automatic or an overnight thing in all instances. If you feel that way about it, and others do too, I'll try to keep that in mind in future exchanges. Sorry for any misinformation or not being clear.
And thanks, everyone, who answered the main question I was trying to address.
Woman throw themselves at men when they have low self-esteem which can be caused by the men in their life constantly finding fault with them.This behavior is learned from childhood from the male figure in their life. They also have a hole inside of them that can't be filled no matter how many men they throw themselves at.
I will address the last sentence in your very long post.
Woman that become enablers do so not from lack of respect, but from learning early on, if I do this, maybe this will make everything okay. They are trying to fix someone who can't be fixed. Woman like this really are hurting need some counseling in order to see they have a problem.
I do agree with our culture changing so fast since the 60's. Woman can say what they want and do what they want. They no longer are held back by men's rules of the past....thank goodness. Although having respect for oneself or being enablers has nothing to do with today's culture.
.When you as a parent or a spouse point out their flaws you are creating a woman or a son who will have low self esteem and this child will grow up and marry the same type person and so they cycle continue's. None of which has anything to do with respect.
Any man who respects his wife would not feel he needs not point out her faults for thousands of people to read. Respect is a mutual thing, if given it will be given back.
I think you are missing my point. I have been on the boards for 7 months but more consistently for about 4. The 3 times have been in the past 3 or 4 months. I don't feel you are describing my body. I think you are disrespectfully describing your wife's body. That in and of itself is offensive To me as a woman.
I have never compared my face or body to models. You are the one comparing your wife to a models. I am pretty and confident with my looks but have my own issues with my weight gain. They have nothing todo with your words or models bodies.
I get that your wife is fine with your descriptions and that is great.
I guess I was just pointing it out as we're others that your words are offensive and you could probably make your point better with less negative descriptives. That's all.
How did you find out about how ur daughter lost her V?
I guess the difference is I nor my W see these things as "faults" that we are displaying to everyone, and you folk do. And are offended by it. I guess it is what it is even if I don't understand it.
And to note, I'm not trying to defend myself, only explain my pov and try to wrap my mind around yours. For me at least, this is a discussion, not a debate. No one is trying to win points or otherwise. Just trying to understand things and hopefully be understood.
Thanks, Kat, for your input. Some good points.
TMI? I've described in detail multiple times various things about my porn habits in the past and sex life, and only blind has complained TMI on it. This is much milder than that.
@lisette,
Well, no, I probably don't totally get it. But that is what it is. I highly respect my W and don't see it as disrespectful. I get it that some of you would. So I'll try to keep that in mind. (Saying it for I guess the fourth or fifth time now.) So you all don't need to keep telling me when I've acknowledge I've heard you and will attempt to quit.
On my daughter, I discovered her loss of virginity using a key logger. She happened to use my computer to communicate with her friends. Unfortunately, she didn't learn from that that Internet communications are never private. Even these will probably some day come back to bite me. I don't ever expect to run for President, though. ;)
you cant wrap you head around how those of us who are commenting feel about your descriptions and may take offense to them
we can't wrap our heads around your descriptions and how it is offensive and that both you and your wife dont get our feelings on the matter.
you aknowledge our offense and will respect it in the future.
all is good. : )
Agree with your first post, whole-heartedly.
And I agree with your second post!
Actually, Cole, I must say, I find it refreshing (albeit old-fashioned), how you viewed that early college girlfriend. You mentioned you were naive, and inexperienced, so with that being said, you didn't know that she was tempting you, and trying that behavior on for size. She probably felt very comfortable with you, and felt you were kind of safe. So that's a huge compliment to you, and it's kinda sweet how you backed down, and why you backed down.
Now, for the other section:
I think self-esteem does enter the formula, but also as Natty described, that one's family of origin has a lot to do with it. I think a few others may have touched the topic. But, I don't think we can make huge generalizations, because it can vary. Although a woman may not be "easy" and promiscuous, for the most part....I think that certain situations may arise, and she may feel that she wants to engage sexually with a few individuals in her life. It could be based on her, and where she's at in her life. Her age could affect situations. I know of a lot of divorcees, who seemed to add a few knotches to their belts, after divorce. Why, I'm not sure! I'm guessing because they have the choice, and it may remind them of when they were younger, and dating. Some may do it for validation, because perhaps they lost a bit of self-estem as a result of the divorce. What's vogue and culturally acceptable could enter. Their falling away from the church, or praying, or the Bible, and some never were religious and relate to it, as a moral thing like one of the males here suggested. Certain seasons have been known to bring out the wilder side of people, like the first few spring winds, and in Germany there is a whole holiday centering around this concept, of "Fasching", where people dress up in costumes, and get a bit wilder, drinking their beer, lol. Okay, then drinking, and drugging will probably affect that.
So many factors. And if a woman has been promiscuous, or had say many lovers, she can also change, and say, well, that's enough, and draw the conclusions that her partners were more the same than different. People who come to know the Lord later in their lives, may completely revise this aspect, and then treat their bodies differently. So many different reasons could effect an individual's choice to have sex or not, and how frequent, and with how many lovers. I have known a few beautiful women, who seemed to be totally tied to their appearance, and they felt better about themselves being wanted by so many men, and looked at it as a good thing. A few of those women also received nice gifts, dinners, and had some of their dates buy things. So, different strokes for different folks.
But I will say, that I think a person has to be very together, and probably has a very good self-esteem when she can comfortably, turn down offers from other men, and can either joke about it, or be direct, or can say she's flattered, but "no thanks". If more married women, and men for that matter, had a better self-esteem, (even if there were marital problems), I think we'd have much less infidelity.
Wouldn't it be awesome, for one day, just one day, everyone agreed to not sleep with anyone except their spouses???? Lol, we'd have some angry cheaters, but the world would be a better place. Okay, need to get some sleep, not even sure if this makes sense anymore! lol
As I've been mulling over this issue, and I tend to work through things as I write. Sort of why I end up rambling sometimes. I think maybe I've come upon something.
I'm sure in various ways, whether through childhood or culture or other behaviors which lead to one not putting the value on sex that they should, and even if they do, they don't hold onto that, maybe it isn't necessarily that lack of self-respect and self-esteem are the *causes* of promiscuity, but that they are a result of the conditions that lead to it and the result of submitting to sex so that it creates the "death spiral" as it regards to sex with whoever.
IOW, if someone was abused or molested at an early age, they may not respect themselves very much as they grow up. Father or mother tell them they are "trash" or whatever. So they get out and when a guy takes interest in them, its like a "different opinion" to what they've always perceived. Then depending on their moral upbringing and such, they may feel what they are doing is wrong, and so feel less respect for themselves after it is over, and the cycle continues.
Does that make sense?