Oh and one or two things in the sink...who cares? Pick your battles. I look for 95% of the job done. 95% can usually get done in about half or a quarter of the time as 100%. If I want 100%, I do it myself.

Think of it this way. Switch it and you clean his room. Only you have to keep going until you have it perfect...HIS way. So you have to go back, if you didn't put the pencil in the right spot. You have to take the shirt back out of the closet, and on and on. Point is that what you think is perfect, isn't what he thinks is perfect. And you'd hate having to go back and back and back and make it something that seems less perfect to you....

As far as loading the dishwasher in a way that the dishes don't get clean; I'd give him the chance to reload the dishwasher and not inconvenience people before I'd shut the electric off.

And that would be my point. That it's selfish to make other people wait and inconvenience them.

But again, keep in mind: if it's one or two things...who cares? Even consistently one or two things.

If you're controlling over how you want him to do things....would it be any surprise if he learns to be controlling?

Thank you Patti22:
One of the pitfalls of bringing up one or two instances of what your child does on this type of forum is that no pattern of typical problem behavior can clearly be demonstrated. I guess that's better done in therapy.

If it were only that he didn't follow through with my instructions the way I directed him to, it would be annoying and irritating.
(He's going to have to learn to follow instructions carefully as an employed adult though.)
My son doesn't like following rules. Such as moving his current girlfriend into our home one piece of clothing and personal article at a time when we've repeatedly told him not to.
When questioned on it he became angry we didn't believe his lies... until I found the girl hiding in his closet.

Oh he gets it.

Has he gotten thrown out of countless schools? If not, he knows how to follow rules.

He's just not following yours.

Pick your battles. Don't loose the battles you pick.


(If my son was 20, I'd be fine with it. BUT if I said no, and he did it anyway....My son wouldn't have a door on his room, nor closet doors... Like I said, just try pushing me...)

@ #58:

One trick I've heard of for handling kids like that when it comes to certain chores is to give them "fake choices". By that I mean you give them two options for how to do a chore/task. One way is the normal, easy way. The other option is to a more time consuming or difficult method of doing it. This way they feel as though they have more control over the situation and are a bit more inclined to actually do the chore.

With the dish washing for example: "You have two options here. You can either clean all the dishes by hand with soap, water and a sponge, followed by cleaning the sink out with the sponge. ...Or you can rinse the dishes off, load them into the dishwasher neatly and then clean the sink in your prefered manner."

Take a guess which option they would pick.

I'm losing track- Are we talking chores as an adult or chores he was assigned as a kid? If you're letting him live in your house as an adult and he's not contributing, you don't need to bargain. The choice seems simple, help or leave. If he's not paying rent to you, helping around the house is a substitute for his rent, so him not doing simple things around the house are essentially not paying rent. What happens when you don't pay rent in the real world? You get evicted.

But I don't think this is just about chores and which are a big deal and which are not. It's the accumulative effect of certain behaviors. He doesn't respect anyone and seems to shit all over what you value.

I think you need to let him fall down.

@rmb:

If it weren't for the fact he has two kids of his own now that he needs to support I would agree that he needs to be allowed to fall.

However, doing that now would likely have a negative impact on the development of his children. They are at an age where all of their experiences with their parents will play a SIGNIFICANT role in shaping how their brains develop. And sadly Chuck's son is currently a toxic influence on their development.

Every bad behavior they see him consistently engage in is rapidly being wired into their brains as being both acceptable behavior AND how they are expected to behave themselves as they grow older (I recently took college courses on childhood development and how minds develop).

Unfortunately, Chuck's son is unlikely to ever change UNTIL he hits rock bottom.

That is part of why I proposed arranging for that to happen in a safe, controlled environment by forcing him into in-patient treatment. That way he can see how serious the problem is and get the help he needs.

Umm, how are you going to force the son into inpatient treatment?

He's an adult.

He also has the right to forbid his father to see the children whenever he wants to, because he's the parent now.

California is one of the few states that will consider grandparents rights, but he'd have to take him to court.

SleepyWalrus:
#64 is a great idea. Too bad he's too old now to use that one.

RMB:
Sorry. I did jump around.
My son has never been good about following through with tasks.
When he was younger my ex and I would do something similar to Patti22 was suggesting. I'd call it "stripping his crib". Which meant removing in his room he enjoyed one by one. He could earn them back by doing what he was told.

The example of the dishes was current behavior at 20. He had very few chores and paid no rent. Following those few very simple tasks should have been no problem. It wasn't important to him.

#66:
Yes, I agree. He'll have to find his rock bottom before he changes.
He tried just recently to gain custody of his first child in order to claim welfare benefits. The mother of his first is also very young, pretty and wants to party with her friends. She actually considered giving up custody but her mother wouldn't have it (thank goodness).
Her mom said she'd fight that from happening, and as much as I love my son, I'd help her with that.
There's no way he's ready for it and I won't let him drag his son into the mess. He's got another on the way and I have no control at this point.
In fact, my husband and I have doubts his current girlfriend is actually pregnant. She's not stable and is very needy.
Maybe we're wrong. But we wouldn't be surprised at all if she had a "miscarriage".

This is terrible. My son and his girlfriend are invited to Thanksgiving, but we haven't spoken at all in over a week.

In the US family members (and sometimes close friends) can petition a judge to sign a court order that forces a loved one with drug/alcohol problems into in-patient treatment if they have refused treatment.

Given that the son has vulnerable children I would imagine itvis even more likely that a judge would side with Chuck if he tries petitioning for a court order.

Alternatively, reporting (or threatening to report) his son to Child Protective Services if he doesn't go into treatment and get better could work too. Plus, in this day and age it is likely that if this route were taken and CPS felt they needed to remove the kids until the son has been through treatment the kids would be placed in the care of relatives deemed safe and able to care for them during that time.

@ #68:

In an effort to lighten the mood I'll share this.

One of my friends in college has a mom who did that "stripping the crib" thing to hin when he was a teen.

He would stay up all night watching tv until he passed out in his chair. So one day he came home from school and his mom had gotten rid of his mattress and told him it was because he didn't want to use it. He had to earn it back as well as pay his mom back for the days wage she missed out on from taking a day off from work to get rid of the mattress.

He learned his lesson and has since then grown into a very mature, responsible adult.

Sleepy, it's extremely difficult to get someone involuntarily committed into a treatment facility, even by petitioning the court. Usually, it the burden of proof is for severe addiction, or the person's life is in danger,

There is one, possibly two children involved, and that is really disturbing to me, that a person's behavior now affects two innocent lives. But, this young man is already failing his child so letting him hit bottom may be the best thing that ultimately could happen to his children, in the long run.

Chuck every time I read over everything in your post, it just makes me sad for you, and for your son. I think when most people act out, it's from a place of pain and/or fear. Doesn't excuse them. My dad was an absent father and alcoholic and as his daughter, I found him repulsive and his behavior inexcusable. Of course, as I got older, intellectually, I recognized he was probably in pain or afraid, and for that I was sorry for him. However, emotionally, I didn't care what the underlying reasons were; I just had to physically and emotionally disconnect from him, so he didn't suck the life right out of me.

Dr Gabor Mate on Attachment and Parenting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbiWLLYSZhc

@rmb:

It's not always as hard as it may seem to get a family member involuntarily admitted to in-patient treatment.

As I told Chuck earlier, an adult relative of mine who had very similar personality/behavioral issues to Chuck's son's got to a point where they were causing problems for the rest of the family. The rest of the family gave them an ultimatum to go into treatment or else they would be out on their own. When they got to the treatment center the relative started putting up a stink about not wanting to be there and started getting angry. When they started lashing out they got themselves involuntarily admitted to the center/hospital since it was clear they were a possible threat to themselves and those around them.

When they finally got released they were doing significantly better at dealing with their problems in a responsible, healthy way. (Part of it may have been due to being scared strait by the experience.)

I really want to thank you all again for your support and understanding.

My husband surprised me when he sent a text to our son. I had previously invited our son and his girlfriend to Thanksgiving before the second round of conflict when he told me not to contact him, his ex or his girlfriend (about a week before the holiday).
My husband simply stated that they were both still invited to spend the day with us and my husband's family at our house and we'd love to see them there. My son responded that they'd be stopping by.

This actually caused a lot of anxiety for me. I wasn't sure what to expect and didn't want a scene.
It turned out to be a good visit. It was awkward at first, but my son was actually talkative. He asked some questions about credit and how to get into an apartment. He doesn't ask for advice... EVER, so it was a positive thing. There was something going on with his girlfriend that I couldn't put my finger to, but she does have clinically diagnosed psychological issues, so maybe she was anxious.
People were asking my husband and I how far along she was. We said it had to be three months or so, but I sincerely wouldn't be surprised if it turned out she had never been pregnant in the first place. She probably is, but I just wouldn't be surprised if we finally found out she wasn't.

His girlfriend had to get to work and since neither one of them drive they were trying to get Uber to pick her up. I was able to get one that didn't cancel so she could get there on time.
My son stayed long after everyone had left and we gave him a bunch of leftovers. It seemed like nothing had ever happened... a relief. I ended up driving him to my ex's house, which is about a mile away.
(The place I worked so hard on is now a total wreck and looks abandoned. My ex rents a room to a good friend of hers and she hardly ever stays there. My ex was never neat and a pack rat and now that once nice home is an eye sore.) My son talks about "fixing it up" but it's going to take much time and cash. My hope is she'll charge him rent and he'll actually straighten the place up at some point.
I see a glimmer of light for him.

A few days later he asked for help transporting his son so he could visit with him. My husband and I talked about it and agreed to help. On our way back he said he needed to do a couple of errands... hmm.

He became wishy-washy if we would be seeing our grandson over the weekend and was noncommittal. We did get to see him on Sunday when it was time to take him back. Neither my husband or I like the feeling of being used by him. A certain amount is acceptable under the circumstances, but we'll have to be wary of being blatantly used or providing assistance. We don't want to make this too easy for him.

I've decided not to criticize my son. I'm going to let him make his own mistakes and be an ear more that a mouth. I'm not going to make suggestions but rather wait for him to ask. No "I told you so". I going to try to stay positive but firm with him and just see what happens.

It has to be incredibly hard.
Good luck and I hope all goes well!