I believe you would benefit from some one-on-one counselling to help you with this, because I don't think you see the big picture. You're trying to fix something you believe you had a hand in creating, but the more you try to fix it, the less it will help either one of you.

He's a man now, and a father, he's not a boy, or even your boy, he's now a man, who happens to be your son. There is nothing you can do to make him change or act differently. If he wants to change he will have to do it of his own volition. But I don't think he has any intention of taking advice from you because the problem for him is you. This is very common amongst children who don't like how they were raised, and anything to do with mom or dad's advice, is the wrong advice.

You're focusing the blame on "drugs & alcohol", but pot and booze are not the problem for him; it's you and his mother. It doesn't sound like either one of you were great examples for him growing up, and now that he's a grown man, he's doing things his way, and he's trying to prove to himself, and the world around him, that he is a responsible person, because perhaps he feels that you and your ex were irresponsible people and parents.

The harder you try to fix this, the further away he will go. You think you're being helpful, loving and caring, but I don't think he sees it this way. It's not about being there for him, or giving him tough love, it's about letting him, as an adult, decide how he wants to live his life, and you just have to live with the consequences. You don't have an opportunity to go back in time. It is what it is, and there's nothing you can do about it.

I wish you well.

I'm not blaming you or his mom for his behavior. I felt like you were at a loss about why he is who he is and does what he does and that's why I mention what broken families can do to kids.

I don't think at 18 he suddenly became an a-hole. That has been building over time. The reality is a family breaking up, even a dysfunctional family, can screw kids up. Now, some kids weather through it better than others, based on their personality and on how well their parents behave and nurture during and after the divorce. Some kids don't do as well.

So I think your bewilderment by saying you were close and I don't know what happened is not dealing with reality as much as he's not dealing with reality.

Again NOT blaming you for his choices and his behavior once he became an adult. Just saying there's a whole history in each of our lives that can explain why we do what we do.

As for feeling guilty, that's a wasted emotion and doesn't change anything in the present.

Be happy, have fun with your son.

His life is messed up right now, be the bright point in his life. Be the one that believes in him when no one else, including himself, does. Be the soft place where he lands. Tell him that you love him and that you're proud of him everyday. Mean it when you say it. Mean it.

Eat meals together and talk about things the two of you share.

BE the person that you want him to grow up to be. Don't talk about it...Be it.

Refurb:
I understand you are trying your best to be helpful, so thank you for your input and observations.
I didn't really want this to turn into a topic about human sexuality, but wanted to concentrate on communicating with my son more effectively. However I know and understand that from a certain point of view, a child having to deal with matters of their own parent's sexual identity could be (and probably is) confusing if not traumatic depending on the circumstances.

It certainly is a unique situation. One that requires sensitivity and professional psychological assistance depending on the age, maturity and social culture of the child.

I attempted in every way possible to get my son into therapy to speak privately or as a family about the issue. Both he and his mother resisted all attempts to get that to happen.
I remained close and communicative with them both throughout.
I was open and honest with my son, answered his questions sincerely and simply concentrated on him rather than making my identity the issue. From our own perspective there isn't anything wrong with being gay... not coming to terms with it and deceiving others does the damage... to everyone. I concentrated on him and his wellbeing.

I may have failed and regardless of my best efforts, may have scarred him so profoundly he will never fully recover. There is indeed a chance of that and I have to accept it. I honestly don't believe that is the case since my ex-wife's family, as well as my ex to a degree, remained loving and supportive. If my son had an issue with my sexuality he's had a multitude of opportunities to discuss it. He's complained about nearly EVERYTHING else about me, but not about my being gay.

I understand there are those who do not "understand" being gay. It was misunderstood and a taboo subject. Fortunately that's changing... fast... too fast for some, too slowly for others.
My own culture it simply wasn't an option to cone out. Not because of religious beliefs, but because it assumed it was mental illness, sad and pathetic. Later my parents were disappointed I felt I couldn't tell them the truth.

Sexuality is a broad spectrum. Most gay men I know have children from previous straight marriages. Some gay men could never have sex with women just as most straight people couldn't have sex with someone of the same sex. Sexual attraction is not black and white. We weren't taught the facts because there were few studies to examine it.
Some could have sex with the same sex under the right conditions, they simply prefer one sex over the other.
I was always gay, and looking back it was obvious. I kept hoping one day I'd wake up feeling differently.

I was deeply and passionately in love with my ex wife and I consider the first seven years of our marriage some of the best days of my life. My feelings for men never went away, but I would have never cheated on her. She knew my feelings about men in the past, but ignored it as I did.
Our marriage began to weaken over time and after having our son, the ddisintegration accelerated. I'm not sure what happened. I stopped trusting her. She became cruel to me and our son. Maybe my sexuality had something to do with it... maybe not.

No one "becomes" gay. No one becomes straight. You might be able to change your behavior, but not your sexual orientation.

"Why not consider pedophilia a legitimate sexual orientation?"
Children are a protected entity who need to be protected from those who would take advantage of their immaturity, their innocence.

If you'd like to ask more questions about my sexuality, or if you can offer legitimate reasons why it might contribute to my son's poor decisions, I welcome your opinions.

Thank you all for your input and care.

I don't think it has any thing to do with you being gay.
There are lot and lots of straight people who have the same exact issues with their children that you are having.

I agree to be there for him but you can't save him. Only he can do that.

dude simply put
coming out on your own kid is "heavy"

I feel for both of you in that

gay aint a crime, doesn't make for a bad person .... look at the amount of jerk off hetros

back to topic
the boy has no principles, therefore no backbone

how does a counselor help with that
principles require judgment and judgment is a noPC word

Yes, this is kind of what I was trying to say as well.. It is not the gay issue but the unhealthy dynamic that a relationship takes on when a person is not with who she/he is meant to be.
Chuck, I think you described my marriage as well, except I didn't get mean, I just withdrew and suffered quietly for 7 years because I felt
The kids needed a " stable" home, but it was nothing BUT stable under the circumstances.

Reading that reminds me of a relative who had similar personality traits regarding their problems and how they treated/responded to others. The family tried everything we could for many years to help them but it slowly got worse and worse because this relative was not willing to admit they had a problem (or that it was as bad as it had gotten).

Ultimately the family just gave them an ultimatum to go to in-patient treatment. This relative put up a fight and was finally forced into treatment. They spent about a week or so there in in-patient treatment for their problems and it was really hard on the family as a whole due to all the emotionsl drama.


But you know what? It helped.

When they finally got released (it was an involuntary stay) from treatment they had a MUCH healthier perspective on things and were doing exponentially better at handling their problems.


Perhaps your son just needs some extra strength tough love in the form of forcing him to enter in-patient treatment for his drug and alcohol dependency issues?

Don't lose hope if he refuses to do it though. In some places the family of someobe with a drug problem can petition a judge to sign a court order forcing the family member with a drug problem to go to in-patient treatment.

I know it's hard to imagine doing that to a family member, but it's better to fix this kind of problem while they're still relatively young.

Can I just say that you are patient and respectful in how you respond to the "advice" on this thread. Most people would become defensive if they were given some of the "advice" (using that term loosely) you've been given. If you are this gracious and accepting of this kind of talk, maybe it's a similar pattern at home?

Ok so it's going to seem rude of me but maybe you're too "nice"? Sometimes our loved ones need to know that we are fed up with their bs. Not just calling them out but following through. Is it possible that your son sees that you're a softie and knows he can pretty much do and day what he wants and at some level, get away with it?

I understand what others are saying in as, far as he's an adult. I have 2 adult sons who basically live life on their terms. However I believe that there is a need to also please their father and I just as I continue to feel that way with my dad (and my mom when she was still alive)

No you can't control him or his actions but you can control how you respond to them. Your response may have an effect on him. It may give him time and reason to ponder his own choices. 20 is not quite a full fledged adult but not a kid. It's a confusing age where their brains ate not fully in adult mode. Science says that (males more so) our brains function at a higher impulse rate and less logical until about the age of 23. I watched a 20/20 episode where they did these tests.

A young man of about 20 and John Stossil where hooked up to writes that measured which areas of the brain were firing up during some video game task type thing. The test proved that the young man's "impulsive" brain was stronger during the task and the adults "logical" brain was fired up.

Think about how impulsive and fearless kids and young adults are. They often don't look past the moment. Yes they can be taught to predict outcomes and some are naturally me cautious but in general most risky behavior comes in the younger years.

My point is don't lose hope. He's still developing. But don't tolerate his bullshit either. If you feel a need, as a grandfather, to help your grandchildren, go ahead but not in place of him. Meaning if you give any gifts or money, they should not be in place of what he owes. He should be fully accountable for that.

Anyway I have rambled on again. Best of luck. Your a great dad and your son will come back around eventually.

I didn't read all the responses. Just popping back on because you responded back to my suggestion of al-anon. I totally get that. The program is not set up to tell you what to do and it looks like that's what you are searching for...someone to tell you what to do so you can get positive results.

I'm afraid I don't have any advice. Like I said I didn't read all the responses, but it seems like you have tried and done everything to set this right. It's heart breaking to watch someone walk down a road you know isn't good for them. My kids have made some of the same bad choices I have made, but I have to step back and let them figure it out on their own now that they are older. All I can do is love them now.

I'm glad to read he is in school. He can make pretty good money as a chef in some places. Perhaps once he starts working he will be too busy to do some of those things that are not good. I know many people who smoked weed and other drugs that stopped when their employer started doing random drug checks. They wised up and realized it wasn't worth losing their job over. There are a handful of addicts that don't quit, but a majority do. (((HUGS))) I'm rooting for you

It's true on the development front. Our brains aren't fully formed until our early to mid 20s, and the areas that aren't formed are related to impulse control, predicting consequences, etc. Unfortunately two children by the time your 20 with two different women affects not just him. These are decisions that last a lifetime, his lifetime and his children's lifetime. Hopefully he does come around and it's not a pattern that continues his entire life. Bringing children into this world raises the stakes.

I don't agree with everything everyone posted here either but that's kind of the way it goes when you have a collective of diverse people with their own experiences and ideas.

Thanks again all for all your support. I've read and reread all of your comments, suggestions and words of encouragement. I appreciate them all very much.

Because I'm doing my replies from my phone it makes it hard to switch back and forth to address each comment directly.

Someone said I was being too nice. I'm pretty guilty of being too lenient, too understanding, overly sensitive to what his feelings might be. That's something that came out in the drug dependency sessions.
I'm simply not "tough enough" when I should be.

My son and my partner (now husband) of nine years get along very well, but my husband is oldest of five. The age spread is wide and he has good experience with family interaction with teenagers. I was the last in my family, so I lack those life experiences.
My husband is far less likely to put up with bad behavior, disrespect, laziness and excuses as I am. I overthink.

I've had some time to reflect on what what has been said here and from others and something else dawned on me. Maybe it's obvious to some of you already just by what I've written.

My son is one of those kids who when given a task only completes part of it... hardly ever finishing the entire chore with care.
He was one of those who after asking him to stop doing something (like throwing a ball or making noises) almost always had to get in just one more.
If you called out his bad behavior he became angry and tried to point out something you did wrong rather than accepting his own actions.
He would flat out refuse to do some things at the time you asked him, promising to do it later.
These cover a time spread and wasn't always this way, but I'd say this was more typical of him.

His girlfriends have either been "damaged" or weak emotionally to varying degrees. He's always remarked HE would do the breaking up, but not them. Teenagers say dumb things, and while the remarks gave us pause, they would usually illicit eye rolls and more discussion.

Teenagers like to control their environment, but he's got a very controlling personality. Now that I think about it, he tries to control everyone and everything.

Sounds like a control thing. He wants to be his own boss. He wants to show you and the world, "You're not the boss of me." Who knows if that attitude will make or break him. Too many variables.

I am the mother to two step daughters, one who will be 20 in a couple of months and the other will be 18 this week. A step parent has the luxury of being a bit removed. I love my step children because they're my husband's kids, not because they came from me and I fell in love with them the minute they came into the world. So I would rely on your husband to help you see the angles you may not be seeing, to fortify you so you stay firm in your deal breakers with your son, to be the BS detector when you're too emotionally invested. He can be a great source of affirmation and strength for you when you feel like you're torn.

It's not going to kill your son if you take a hard line. I know it feels that way because you'll worry about him but it's ok to draw a line in the sand and say if he wants to play by his own rules and be the man he thinks he is, then he can do that independent of you. That doesn't mean you have to cut him out of your life, but it may mean limiting your time with him if you feel he's working you or if it's simply too painful to be around him.

Given this revelation of you possibly being too soft on your son, it seems like maybe it would help him if you began to CONSISTENTLY be more firm with him and stop being overly sensitive with him.

The high level of sensitivity only seems to have pushed him away.

You've explained that in addition to your softness, his mother is a narcissist with abusive tendencies. Looking at this more complete picture it is understandable to me that he would have a much closer and happier relationship with you when he was younger and then start to break away and lash out at you more as he grew up.

My own mother has been abusive and exhibited narcissistic tendencies as long as I can remember. Meanwhile, my dad (although he generally gives in to her in order to keep the peace) was firm but caring. I could count on him for some degree of protection from my mother because of this.


In your case it sounds like your son couldn't find that firm love and safety in you and over time may have grown to resent you for it. Even moreso after you divorced his mother and were even less likely to provide that security from her abusive/narcissistic behaviors. He quite possibly doesn't even realize this yet given how young he still is.


Perhaps you could convince him to attend joint therapy sessions with you to work on fixing things between you. If you can repair that lost sense of firm love and security between you then he quite likely would be more willing to listen to you since he may also feel you are doing a better job of listening to him than you have in all your previous attempts.