I had a similar experience, Daystar. A friend betrayed my trust and stomped all over me (in her toxic need to control and shame). I removed myself from this poisonous person as she hurt me deeply. And I woke up and saw her for who she is. Not who I wanted her to be. So I drew my boundary and said, "I will not endure this abuse any more. I've done this in the past and it does not serve me well at all."

Another friend has been trying to "reconcile" us, because of her Own needs.

Fact is, I did send an "olive branch" out in the form of apology, accepting responsibility for my own actions. I tried to reach this person twice -- my emails and voice message have gone unacknowledged.

So, as much as this "go between" friend will try to be peacemaker & try to mend the rift, truth is, I've already made the gesture and I should not be groveling to Anyone. And I won't.

My boundary is there. If that person chooses at some point to acknowledge her part (including passing false, nasty rumors about me to others, behind my back) -- then she's welcome to do so. But I do not have any interest in stepping back into that toxic wasteland. In other words, I will not re-engage on any level.

There's a simple slogan in my 12 step recovery world: "Avoid People, Places and Things."

Simple enough. It's about self-preservation. It's about nurturing ourselves. If we need to remove ourselves from drama (which is a codependent trait) to protect ourselves, then we are learning the art of healing. Avoidance is not the same as Isolation. Just like Detachment is not the same as Avoidance. Detachment is about responding, not reacting.

As I continue to recover, I can be around certain toxicity and triggers a little better than earlier on, but I can still choose to remove myself when it is not serving me well at all.

First and foremost is my recovery. When I lose sight of that, I give away my power and set myself up for relapse.

((Hugs))

You have a right to chose your Friends. What family you have or chose to have in your life. . You have a right as a Human Being to anything in your life or not. Anyone who tells you differently is certainly not your advocate or a friend to your humanity. In fact, I would regard anyone who told me differently as an emotional terrorist.

Notice the judgment. If advice has to come with this much judgement, I personally find it NUGATORY.

"To be selfish or cowardly or unloving, unfriendly, then those things create the low self esteem into your self, and such things creates a loss of respect from the other people around you. "

"Just sharing my understanding for anyone that wants it"

"I do seem to have a way of getting onto the negative side of people, but I figure that codependent people are just so sensitive that if I try tooooo hard to be nice then the message gets reduced down to worthless."


"Being cowardly feels good and feels right because why would one risk their life or risk their feelings or do anything uncomfortable when they do not have to do it? Being brave is a virtue because it is harder to do and it is much admired. "

To be selfish or cowardly or unloving, unfriendly, then those things create the low self esteem into your self, and such things creates a loss of respect from the other people around you.



"There are dysfunctional people everywhere, just as there are perverts and idiots and jerks all around all of us, so by running away from the toxic people then that is running away from life."

When one runs away from an abuser then that abuser wins, and if one stands their ground with proper and strong boundaries then it is the abuser who gets put down.

"To heal the codependency means to become a strong personality, instead of being the weak one that is run off by every obnoxious jerk that comes along.'

i do not think that we shoud strive to have a healthy relationship with everyone. some people make us uncomfortable and we should avoid them as much as possible. if it someone that you cant avoid completely (ex wthat we may have childern with or a family member) then contact should be as little as possible and boundaries repsected.booky you always provide food for thought but certanily do not agree with you. they are true reasons why a healthy relationship is not possible with some people. to me that is protecting yourself from those that are toxic to the self

Well I have now had another day to think about this, and of course I do like to think about codependency issues, so now I say that reason that certain people fail in the BOUNDARIES is because of not having the right principles which only come from an active faith in God.

My observation is that certain people here (as in the world) simply want to hate people, and especially to hate their ex's. I do realize that they will deny it being "hatred" as they see it as protecting them self, and being angry at those other people, and most particularly with their ex's. And it is not just ex-spouse or ex-BF but even ex-friends that they want to dispose of.

As there is nothing wrong to their boundaries by being mean and hateful to an ex since they view their ex's as disposable people.

My finding is that the higher ground and up-building principles come from God, as like "do unto others as wanted done unto thy self' and or "Love thy enemy" and or "turn the other cheek" and other such principles, because those are what we need to base our boundaries on.

That is the real problem here for my perspective because I keep talking about building healthy and up-building boundaries based on rightful principles, while others here are promoting mean and hateful ideas as their boundaries.

My understanding of codependency is that this negativity is based on the dysfunctional feeling of superiority, and thereby controlling and exercising undue power over top of the ex's.

I honestly believe that if any one works just to have their life as safe and comfortable and easy - then absolutely no one will ever respect you for it - and you will not even respect your selves.

You are not going to get healthy or find recovery or treat the codependency by being mean and hateful to anybody.

I, for one, am not mean to my STBX, nor do I hate him, nor do I treat him with disrespect. He disrespected me and our children, and put alcohol ahead of everyone, including himself. That was his choice. I left him to his choices. That was my boundary - you may do as you wish with your life, but I don't have to be a part of it. No, that did not heal my codependency. What is healing my codependency is first getting a very good code therapist, and then stepping away from this toxic person and his family. Therapy is healing my codependency. And according to my therapist, it is very much OK, and even encouraged, to distance yourself from toxic people. Toxic people bring nothing to your life, and in fact take away things from your life. What I have been encouraged to do is to distance myself from my STBX except where absolutely necessary, and then go about the business of figuring out who I am indendependent of this awful marriage. There is no hate going on, except perhaps on my STBX's part as he has tried to hurt me various ways since I left. No, you can't be codependent ON a person, but you can be IN a codependent relationship with someone, as I was with my STBX, and previously with my parents.

You have offered some insightful comments and some food for thought, but in the end I have to go with what my therapist says because he is helping me, and I feel that you are not really helping those on here who are begging for some validation of their feelings and actions in light of serious issues involving some significant people in their lives. I don't think we do anyone a true service by making them feel bad about themselves or their choices. As a "victim" (I hate to use that word as I don't see myself as a victim) of an alcoholic father and now an alcoholic husband, I have been through hell and back, and I can so relate with many of the people on here who are trying to preserve their sanity by distancing themselves from those who would hurt them. I see absolutely nothing wrong with distancing myself from toxic people, and neither does my therapist, so I defer to him.

I think this person makes it up as he goes. He doesn't really have the consistency. To tell people to go back to the people and situations that have hurt them. This in itself if ABUSIVE! He knows nothing of and if you notice says What he knows or thinks he understands. THIS DOES NOT MAKE HIS OPINION VALID.
(which I claim is INANE/USELESS to someone who is trying to get out of an abusive situation to tell them to go back is misogynist. Another words this person literally hates women and humanity in general. Yet all the while being passive aggressive by using metaphors and movie comparisons. None of these things are considered valid treatment for CODA issues. He's a misanthrope and is very dangerous to CODA ISSUES!
Notice other then Movie titles and articles he has also shares no LIFE EXPERIENCES OF ANY VICTORY or wins over any of his own destructive behaviors on here.

The healing begins when we risk moving out of isolation. Feelings and buried memories will return. By gradually releasing the burden of unexpressed grief, we slowly move out of the past. We learn to re-parent ourselves with gentleness, humor, love and respect.

This process allows us to see our biological parents as the instruments of our existence. Our actual parent is a Higher Power whom some of us choose to call God. Although we had alcoholic or dysfunctional parents, our Higher Power gave us the Twelve Steps of Recovery.

This is the action and work that heals us: we use the Steps; we use the meetings; we use the telephone. We share our experience, strength, and hope with each other. We learn to restructure our sick thinking one day at a time. When we release our parents from responsibility for our actions today, we become free to make healthful decisions as actors, not reactors. We progress from hurting, to healing, to helping. We awaken to a sense of wholeness we never knew was possible.

By attending these meetings on a regular basis, you will come to see parental alcoholism or family dysfunction for what it is: a disease that infected you as a child and continues to affect you as an adult. You will learn to keep the focus on yourself in the here and now. You will take responsibility for your own life and supply your own parenting.

You will not do this alone. Look around you and you will see others who know how you feel. We will love and encourage you no matter what. We ask you accept us just as we accept you.

This is a spiritual program based on action coming from love. We are sure that as the love grows inside you, you will see beautiful changes in all your relationships, especially with God, yourself, and your parents.

I still say that we need to seriously evaluate the info giving in the first comment by "daystar" at top.

And I am not trying to criticize as I simply want to analyze the given info concerning and based on the issue of codependency.

She has an old friend as she calls an ex-friend, and that ex-friend is seeking to renew their friendship, and even a third person friend is trying to be a mediator so that they all can be friends.

Now "daystar" is viewing this ex-friend as so repulsive or so unhealthy that she daystar can not allow herself to renew a friendship with her old friend.

Daystar does not understand why the old friend (and the mediator friend too) does not accept her refusal to be friends, and I do not understand that either - except that it is daystar's codependency which is building these walls of separation with the people in her life.

To be friends then all one really needs to do is to be friendly with the person, you do not have to invite her into your house, and you do not have to sleep with the friend, as you just need to be friendly, but that only works if daystar would make that as her boundary line.

Our friends can not hurt us unless we fail to have our own boundaries.

I myself certainly do have some low-level-friends (and friends in low places) who I see some times, and I have others who are very close friends who I like to be with, but daystar is saying that this old friend is now soooo something that daystar simply must get rid of the ex-friend and that is a reprehensible stand by daystar - or more correctly it is a codependent stand by daystar.

It would be different if daystar said that friend was bringing around drugs or acting violently as then the boundary would be to keep the drugs away and keep the violence away - hell yes, but that is not being said, as daystar simply wants to dispose of the person / the ex-friend, and that is a codependent dysfunction.

To treat the codependency then daystar needs to set the proper boundaries for simple friendships.

See link:
http://www.ehow.com/how_4516109_set-boundaries-friends.html

When daystar makes new friends then similar dysfunctions can be expected because daystar will be carrying the codependency onward, and daystar will still lack the proper boundaries, so now with an old friend is the time and the opportunity for daystar to start healing along with this old friend.

She asked for thoughts and I hope she accepts the recommendation here.

Peace.

or.........
it could be just a narcissistic fool, who likes to hear himself talk and must have the last word.

I do not believe that one MUST maintain some form of relationship with an ex-this or an ex-that. And some friends ARE unhealthy to be in communication with. Co-dependent people (from what I've learned) have a tendency to be attracted to people who will manipulate them and take advantage (most of the time unknowingly) of the co-depenendent person to gain something for themself. Once you realize a relationship is toxic and express your desire to sever the ties...you could easily be guilted back into staying for "this reason" or "that reason". Only YOU can decide what is healthy for YOU...well, you and your pscyiatrist/therapist if you have one. If I followed some of the advice that you've been given, I'd be beating myself up already for "abandoning" people who were emotional serial killers...and soul rapists. And it's true...sometimes co-dependent people are attracted to those types of villains because those people prey on CoDs. I am proud of you for standing up for yourself and setting your own boundaries and not listening to what other people are trying to influence you to do!

And how about the 12 steps as a basis for this?

#8 Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.
#9 Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

The friend of "daystar" wants to make amends, and she has a mediator too who wants to make amends, and yet people here are advising "daystar" to NOT make amends.

Surely the ex-friends are people that were harmed - and therefore the 12 steps tell us all to make amends.

I see the other advise here as telling her to keep on hurting her friends (and to keep hurt the ex's) and nothing about making amends.

It is not a matter of opinion, as it is a matter of principle.

And it is correct that codependent persons are attracted to people who will manipulate them and take advantage of them, and the codependent persons need to learn boundaries to protect against the attraction and against manipulation and against being taken advantage of because that is being healthy.

But to run away and hide from the people who manipulate and who attract and who take advantage - means running away and hiding from life.

Instead of running away we are to make boundaries.

http://sunflowerfaith.com/2011/10/setting-boundaries-with-difficult-people-six-steps-to-sanity-for-challenging-relationships-book-review/

When codependent people keep shutting out life - then in due time life will start shutting out them.

Hi Booky,

I think you are making quite a large assumption about the amends. I did not see anywhere that there was an attempt by an ex friend to make an amends. What I read was that a past friend who Daystar felt was unhealthy/toxic wanted to continue the relationship again.

Frankly, I have found that attitude to be typical with unhealthy relationships. There can be little to zero support for healthy changes that the Codependent person is trying to make, and an attempt to bring them back down to how things "used to be."

I did not read or assume that anyone was advising Daystar to not accept amends from an ex friend. I did read that she did not wish to continue an unhealthy relationship, which is her option.

Honestly, if someone wants to make amends for their recovery, that is great, and if someone approached me in that regard, I would not refuse amends. However, that does NOT mean that I need to maintain or start up a new relationship with that person unless I wanted to.

But the fact is, there is nothing to indicate what you are saying is the case. More often than not, the case is that an ex does not like the healthier behavior and wants things the old way. BTDT even with my own family some of whom do not want to see me recovering from my cheerleader/caretaker role. And it has nothing to do with amends.

Shar

Agree with u Shar.... Booky does make lot of assumptions abt me ...My exfriend did not make ammends nor intending to... this is the same person who verbally abused me to which Booky pointed that i asked for it... booky thanks for your passion here to respond and advice ....unfortunately its something that doesnt fit me ..

SHAR as always thanks for the support.

Lets say you do all that and you try to reject the ex-friends and ignore people and try to get rid of (or let go of) the ex husband and ex BF (or ex GF) and so how do you enforce that?

You might meet any of the ex's at the shopping mall or grocery store, at night clubs or anywhere, and if you just smile or wave at any of them then they might get the wrong idea - so how would you handle that?

And since they do want to renew their friendship with you - then all of them might come straight up to you as if nothing is wrong.

Surely if you guys do act mean to your ex's then each one of you will get a reputation as being a stuck-up nasty person, and that reputation will be accurate too - so are you going to be rude and snotty to people on the street just because you view them as an ex?

P.S.
Just for the record - the ex friend trying to renew their old friendship with you is an act of trying to make amends, and it does not matter if the ex friend is doing the amends poorly or inaccurately as they are reaching out and that is what counts - and having a third party as a mediator means that yes it is a real attempt at making amends. The next step (if one was considerate) would be for "daystar" to start making the friendly boundaries with the old friend as then the amends could happen. Just FYI.