I want to thank you for your comments regarding the isolating nature of codependency. I found it very healing and helpful to think of the boundary issue as lying within me, as well as releasing the idea of controlling someone else. I don't want to live in isolation and finding ways to deal with the people I know is very healing for me.

Hi Booky,

You cannot assume that a person wanting to renew a relationship has anything to do with making amends. It is a large leap and not necessarily true, whether they are in recovery or not.

Shar

Even the bible....tells us to ignore or shun someone
2 Timothy 2:16
But shun profane and vain babbling's: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
I wished I could do this with some posters on here....That would be self control. . .

"#9 Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others"

He once again is trying to use 12 step literature as his argument He's DEMENTING this text PURPOSELY.
Once again he's INANE! These words are directly to help people who need it, the person in recovery has been hurt, they are not the person who has hurt them.

"Surely the ex-friends are people that were harmed - and therefore the 12 steps tell us all to make amends."
NOT SURLEY AT ALL YOU MADE THAT UP! YOU MAKE IT ALL UP IT's INANE CONJECTURE ON YOUR PART.

Why would I care if anyone thinks I'm hiding, I'm fierce. I know I made a conscience decision and I have no need to justify my behavior of whom I think is worthy of me to talk to.


"I see the other advise here as telling her to keep on hurting her friends (and to keep hurt the ex's) and nothing about making amends."
GET OFF IT...YOUR TELLING HER TO GO BACK TO A ABUSIVE SITUATION. PUT HER LIFE AT THE MERCY OF THOSE WHO ABUSED HER...It's her choice and YOUR ADVICE SUCKS ONCE AGAIN AND IS PURE CONJECTURE ON YOUR PART.


"Surely if you guys do act mean to your ex's then each one of you will get a reputation as being a stuck-up nasty person, and that reputation will be accurate too - so are you going to be rude and snotty to people on the street just because you view them as an ex?"

Yes, I would. The person who abused me, lied, deceived me. DEHUMANIZE ME....I don't care what they think of me. I couldn't care what anyone thinks of me. I know what I think of ME. It's more important than what others think of me. Most CODA's have a problem with assertiveness and asserting their own HUMANITY. It will always be MY CHOICE, as to wether I want to forgive someone or not. It has nothing to do with worrying about what other people think of me or my reputation as SNOTTY or RUDE..I GET TO CHOSE.
That's how I control MY LIFE...the person who perpetrated my life is of no concern unless I CHOSE...NOBODY ELSE GETS TO CHOSE FOR ME....INCLUDING BOOKY AND HIS NONSENSE.
There are lots of people I shun, and I do not isolate or hide from them. If they approached me I would hear them out. Realizing the ball was then in my court, I AGAIN...GET TO CHOSE....OR NOT TO ACCEPT
THEIR APOLOGY, if they even offer one. I usually don't. As the history would be of no concern to me any longer, I know that person as the ABUSER THEY ARE....TIGERS RARELY CHANGE THEIR STRIPES...AND BOOKY STILL DOESN'T HAVE A FRIGGIN CLUE. I CONTROL MY WELL BEING AND LIFE. I get to chose who I let in it.

There's an old expression I use often....

I would forgive a mule for kicking me in the teeth, but I wouldn't go stand behind it again!

I told that to someone who screwed me over once. When It came time for them to apologize, I reminded them of my statement.

I had a preist counsel me once. It was a telephone conversation. I was trying to make amends with a person who had wronged me. I was in a foreign city, I had nobody else to talk to. I called a church of my demonination. The priest asked me, "Are you a Christian." I said yes, then he said to me...and I want BOOKY TO HEAR THIS..
A Christian never has to jusify their works.....Their works are justifyed in THE BLOOD OF CHRIST!

I think the thing that I resent the most about Booky's opinion is that he is a hypocrite. When he had a so called "Stalker" on here. HE RAN. He didn't confront or care to confront his abuser. He didn't want to make friends, he closed off his profile and removed his friends list. He ISOLATED..... So you see, in the end his own actions tell you that he wouldn't put himself at risk for abuse, but will advise others too. Again he proves he's a hypocrite.

Just because I myself made such mistakes myself does not make me into a hypocrite - no - it means that I have experience, and I do have rotten experience.

I have run away in the past, and now I know that hiding or running is not a healthy thing to do.

I learned most things the hard way, as I also had an ex-wife and the mother of my son where I had an awful time with her, and years later she died of cancer and so I never was able to make the healthy boundaries with her, and I will never know if I could have held my own boundaries with her, as I am weak in that way too.

Putting the boundaries on our self is not easy, and yet we need to do the boundaries if we want to live and prosper in this world.

I like what Cynthia said above about not being isolated, because isolation is the true effects of untreated codependency.

Avoiding people feels powerful and it feels like we are isolating those other people but that is not accurate, as the feelings are wrong and misleading, so that when you can not be friendly with an ex-spouse or ex-lover or old friends and various neighbors - then you are isolating your self, and no one else is being isolated.

Separating from and ignoring people is creating a wall around your self until your own walls lock your self inside - isolated from life.

It seems to me that the concept of personal boundaries in such cases has not been discussed here, and I say they need some explanation for anyone interested.

To deal with some negative person especially an ex then we have to control our self and that self control is our personal boundary.

When we meet an ex-lover / ex-spouse / ex-friend / ex-anything, then we must control our own emotions as that is our own boundary.

As in example = The ex will provoke me but I will not get angry, I will not lose control over myself, I will not melt like putty, I will not be drawn into anything that I do not want - as all of those are boundaries on our self regardless of whatever the ex might do.

But those are all defensive boundaries for self protection and we must have positive action boundaries too.

As in example = I will speak to them politely and truthfully but not too much, and I will only remain in their presence until I decide to walk away, I will not talk mean or insulting to the ex no matter how much they deserve it, and I will not tell them off no matter how much I really want to do that - those are the kind of personal boundaries which work.

Telling them to go away does not work, and ignoring them does not work, and we can only control our self and not them.

The personal boundary line means controlling one self and no one else, but we have to be able to effectively deal with anyone and with everyone.

That is how I understand the healing process goes for the dreadful ex's, and it is important to recognize that we our self are their ex too.

Hi Booky,

Thanks for sharing some of your story in #37. I think it explains that your intention is to try to share with other people from some of the grief that you have gone through. We will not always agree on best methods or boundaries, but you obviously have gone through some very tough times, as well.

Shar

War stories....who doesn't have them on here. Oh please....
That doesn't give anyone the right to tell someone they should use the BOUNDRY ISSUE...(WHICH BOOKY DISTORTS because he openly looks to negate 12 step recovery with his nonsence on here.

I'll take my recovery and move on here. If anyone on here is foolish enough to go back to their abusers and be abused again taking BOOKY'S ADVICE...in my opinion your deserve the abuse you get!

I remember going back to abusers. Without couseling and 12 step program. I would think it was MY FAULT. I would go back capitulate, even apologize. My Ex would get drunk and continue the abuse. Without the ablility to fix my life, by just going back NOTHING CHANGED! I WAS STILL ABUSED .....THE ABUSER DIDN'T CHANGE.....I NEEDED TO...and to get TFA from them entirely.
THEY DIDN'T CHANGE...THEY WERE STILL ABUSERS!

Oh so now we are using WAR STORIES to justify our position?

OK...Lets go....
I was raised an alcoholic situation. My mother gave me away in a bar. Illegally. So, she marries 2 times. Widowed once by a man who abused her and me. She married a second time. To a man who abused her. The worst night was when he beat her in the stomach and she aborted a baby while I sat next to her. Now, this woman went back over and over. The broken ribs, the broken jaws, the miscarriages (and there were more.) Never changed. One night we left the apartment to flee from him. He had already beaten her half to death, we fled into the streets. So you see going back to the abuser was not a good idea at all. At one point as we were walking around the streets at 3:00 AM in the morning and slept in an unlocked car that night, I asked her "Mommy, why do we stay."
She replied "We have nowhere else to go." Eventually, and I won't even get into that part of this war story, I ran away enough and had enough of her abuse (which she transferred to me many, many times.) I emancipated myself by going to THE FAMILY COURT SYSTEM.

Years later, I was in a therapist office. He told me I needed to go back to these people and complete the abuse process. I needed to tell them exactly what they did to me and how it made me feel.
I drove over to their dingy apartment, I went in. She sat there with a cast on her leg (remember this was 7 years later. I mentioned her leg. She said "yeah he did it. The judge said next time he's going to throw away the key." I realized at that moment that no matter what the therapist had suggested I do, that nothing had changed in this dynamic. The ABUSE and ABUSERS were still present and had no change in their lives and were still active in ABUSE and ALCOHOLISM. I left. They never knew why I went there. I never went back to the Therapist. I told my Social Worker of the incident at the time. She agreed with me. I had overcome their abuse on my own. I didn't need a therapist to let me know the ABUSER HADN'T CHANGED....THE ABUSER WAS STILL ABUSING.

Did I ever feel the need to go back and be abused or listen to their bullshit again. NO, Did I need a relationship with them....NO I made the right decision. I had a relationship with ME. To this day I know NOTHING HAD CHANGED BUT ME. I didn't need to learn anything further from these people. I had learned exactly what I needed to. I didn't need to have any further contact with them as THEY WOULD NEVER CHANGE BUT I DID! No mater how much I wished or wanted or prayed...THEY COULDN'T CHANGE.
They didn't have to tools.

Hapster - this is not a competition, even if it does feel like we are competing.

I surely do not ever say to return to any abuser to be abused again or to put up with more abuse - certainly not.

What I say is to make boundaries so that the abusers will not have the power to abuse us any more.

If you know an abuser and you just leave then the abuser will simply abuse the other people around them, and you left that abuser in a position where they can keep abusing other people.

It would be like being on the Titanic as it was sinking and you jumped into a life boat and then said to hell with everyone else who are still sinking with the boat.

Saving your own skin is not enough, and that is morally bankrupt.

In some cases going back to confront the abuser might mean by getting them put into jail and then testifying against them at the Court trial - go back to take a stand against the abuser.

When you leave them or just ignore them then the abuser and their abuse goes onward.

Making amends does not simply mean making nice amends, as it also can mean making amends by seeking justice and truth and making wrong things into healthy things.

As such making amends with an old friend would seem fairly easy in comparison.

"If you know an abuser and you just leave then the abuser will simply abuse the other people around them, and you left that abuser in a position where they can keep abusing other people. "

EXCIUSE Me. that's what makes me a survivor. You see, I can leave. and not care what the Abuser does to ANYONE ELSE. Co-Depency recovery is about ME ME ME ME ...NOT OTHERS. It's not my job to save the world. That's where you're continuously WRONG. It's not my job to save the world. To caretake for anyone but myself.

You can say this Titanic Analogy over and over and over...IT DOESN"T MAKE IT TRUTH.

The Co-Dependent must take care of their SELF If they don't NOBODY ELSE WILL.
You know what Booky over and over through this thread alone, you have been inconsistent, made up
dangerous situations and hyperbole. ABUSE IS REAL. It's not what you pretend to be a expert on.
You are FAR FROM AN EXPERT. Most Co-dependants looking for help and through 12 step programs begin to heal their lives, not by going back to their abusers it's by becoming an INDIVIDUAL and becoming whole rather then these inconsistent statements of yours. The Titanic example is PURE BULLSHIT. That augment doesn't hold water with CODA at all....

The Co-dependant must resolve their own issues not THE ABUSERS. It's not their job to make life easier for the ABUSER nor is it their job to fix the ABUSER so they don't abuse anyone else. The Co-dependant's
job in recovery is to take care of themselves. Which no one else probably ever did for them. As children or adults. We become our own Parents learning to re-parent ourselves. By going to meetings, Reading the literature and turning their unresolved issues over to Their Higher Power. Not by this dangerous bullshit you tell them that they are less if they don't confront their abusers. Nowhere in ANY 12 step program does it tell you to go back FIX YOUR ABUSER SO THEY WON'T HURT ANYONE ELSE....THAT'S NOT ANYONES JOB BUT THE ABUSER.



"when you leave them or just ignore them then the abuser and their abuse goes onward.
Making amends does not simply mean making nice amends, as it also can mean making amends by seeking justice and truth and making wrong things into healthy things.
As such making amends with an old friend would seem fairly easy in comparison."

That's pure BULLSHIT TOO...who are you to discern what anyone other than your SELF has to do with their to make their RECOVERY RIGHT..You are so full of judgement and bad advice it's PATHETIC AND YOU'RE ABUSING PEOPLE BY TELLING THEM TO CONFRONT ANYONE.

We have another saying in 12 STEP PROGRAMS...WORK YOUR OWN PROGRAM. Stick to your own story and RECOVERY. Let other people WORK THEIR OWN PROGRAM.
We especially wouldn't tell anyone these horrible disgusting things you're telling them. Putting another CODA's LIFE AND WELL BEING AT RISK FROM A PAST ABUSER IS PURE IGNORANCE ON YOUR PART.