I wouldn't call a cop for anything. First of all, if you do they really don't want to take a report or do paperwork. And if you make them they don't do anything about the crime that just happened to you.

west: According to Nak i have been trained to think i know the bad guy by just looking at him. Really?

Not according to me. According to the training manual. It's all there. When I have time I have to dig it out and post it on a blog. Because it's all there in the training manual. You can be offended by it if you want. I'm not going to tell you what you want just to make you happy. It's there in the manual.

You decided on your profession and now you're here. I can't change what you've decided to do for a living. I didn't make the laws or the rules and I didn't write the manual.

If you are the 1 good cop out of 1000 then how lucky you are to be that. and thank you for your service in protecting people you help on a daily basis.

Don't feel bad for me because I see the reality of a police state.

My son sat in prison for 30 months, 15 years probation and he's innocent. So how do you expect me to react to cops?

Criminal Interrogation And Confessions - You can get it from Amazon
You can read a few pages there on Amazon

Nak

http://tinyurl.com/pqjlmez

Westdenali, I can understand your defense of a profession that you dedicated your life to. But Rew asked some pretty pointed questions about a law enforcement officer's advise to a loved one if they were arrested by one of your former colleagues.

" If your son could call and was being detained by LE, would you tell him to talk to them and tell him his story and everything that happened or would you advise him to invoke his constitutional rights to be silent and ask for an attorney? Would you tell him to answer all the policeman's questions?"

Which is actually what this thread seems to mostly be about. Bias is like an opinion which is just like an asshole, EVERYONE HAS ONE. So bias aside, if you had it all to live over again, and your pseudo-son(-inlaw) had a chance to consult you prior to being questioned by police, what would you tell them?

I have an uncle that was a cop in Chicago, he is a good guy from my perspective. He told me straight up when I was bartending in college and was witness to a cop being beat up in the college town I was in, and I was asked down to the station to 'give my statement'. When I got there, I was interrogated, intimidated and was made to feel guilty that I didn't jump out from behind the bar and help him. When I told my uncle of my treatment by the police he told me that their whole purpose was to intimidate me, bully me and make me feel badly. That they weren't actually asking for a statement they were FISHING. He then promptly sent me some pepper spray and said the sooner I could get out of that place the better. (I was already planning on moving a few months later.) I didn't do anything wrong, but was interrogated like some common criminal. So much for good first impressions of the police. And he told me too, don't talk to them without representation. Of course I didn't know that then but was educated after the fact.

I don't believe anyone was judging you personally, even if it made you feel that way.

I do have one more question for you though... When you went home every night with the knowledge that you treated everyone with respect and dignity, did you ever find out after the fact that you were wrong about someone's guilt or innocence? That your first impressions or assumptions were not exactly on track? It is the fallibility that every human has to be wrong at any given time, yet it would appear to the layman that the police, especially those that have worked their way up the ranks to detective and investigator, that their objectivity has been somewhat compromised due to their experiences.

Now let me tell you my philosophy about people and their ability to do certain jobs objectively and how that correlates to years of service in that industry. I don't believe that anyone in law enforcement, probation/parole, convenience stores, retail, computer tech support, and a plethora of other types of public service jobs. None of those folks should remain in that profession for more than 5-7 years. The reason that I say this is that for the first couple of years you are learning 'the business', the 3-5 years after that you are perfecting your position and streamlining your workflow. After that 7 year mark, you have preconceived notions about things, even when someone can prove you otherwise your tendency is to stick to what you already have experienced and know. What also happens is that you get ingrained biases against folks you have never met.

For instance, I am in Information Technology. I started out in the helpdesk setting, being a customer service guru for the prior 15-20 years helped with that position since I dealt well with people over the phone. But after a while this is what I thought, All users are stupid, they don't listen and they click on things even when they are told not to. Now of course this is not true, I know this, you know this, shit we all know this.... But when you do only the one thing, you get a perspective that is like that.

I knew a C-store district manager that had worked his way up through the ranks for like 30 years, so he started as a clerk, then became a store manager and then a district manager. He thought EVERYONE was a thief, he would treat everyone like a thief (including me a manager that he hired), and would follow people around the store (within 3-4 feet of them) watching them like some nazi. He truly believed that everyone was a thief and that he would assume that first before any other impression was gathered. Because over the years that his how his biased formed. It made him a terrible district manager, I did not stay long at that place much of the reason was because of how I was treated by the upper management when I had done nothing wrong.

The next example are the probation and parole officers. I had the privilege to get to know the person that did the PSI for my husband. He was a retired probation and parole officer, I'd like to think that he was one of the good ones that just got burnt out, but I have no reference for that. But what he taught me about how they operate here in WI was invaluable when I first had to deal with the officer that would be in charge of my husband. What I discovered was that many got in to the supervisory profession to help people, but when faced with the job itself found out that there are some really nasty kinds of folks out there, and those bad apples caused them to lose faith in all people coming out of prison and started treating them all like they were the worst of the worst of their crimes. Not really a rehabilitative atmosphere. Again their bias from their experiences clouding their ability to deal with people on and individual basis, intelligently and fairly.

This also reminds me of the scenario that the teacher of a "Responsible Beverage Service" class told us about not judging a book by its cover. There was a woman that was a regular at a bar he worked at, she had some other physical condition that caused her to stumble, slur her words and essentially appear intoxicated when she hadn't a drop to drink. If you saw her walking in the door you would think that she shouldn't be served another drink at all. When in reality, the bartender knew her, knew of her condition and recognized when she was impaired and when she was not. (apparently she would look less drunk as she drank more if I recall the story correctly.) This scenario, to me, is the perfect example of what first impressions and leaps to judgement can do based on what someone looks like.

I think brainwashed is too strong a word for the training that anyone in Law enforcement receives. But from my understanding they do receive training in interrogation, which is all about misdirection, intimidation and repetition (to catch someone in a fictional story). I know they told my husband that if he would just sign "this" it would "all go away". This was a waiver of his miranda rights and all go away meant that they would be able to start their end of the paperwork so they could make it go away from their desk and put him 'away'. Again, misdirection, misleading and to me, undignified and disrespectful was the name of the game.

I'm sorry if you felt that you were being attacked because of the topic here, but no matter what side of the fence we end up on in the end, one has to look at the facts of how law enforcement operates in our society. I can't imagine that you didn't know any officer in your 23 years that fit the description of the kinds of officers that many on his board have met...

Years ago when my youngest son, a minor, was suspected of theft, the police wanted to question him, I said No, if they thought they actually had something on him, then get a warrant and I'd get an attorney to be present when he was questioned, Otherwise, forget about it. They were fishing and when I said No they had to forget about it. Whether or not he and his friends were actually involved in whatever the police suspected...I still don't know but I do know that being run through the "justice system" would have done nothing to help him grow up and become the good husband and father he is now.

Ok my turn....Nak... i would love to see the so called training manual. Please post it. If it says what you say i will personally contact them.
I am not offended. It is more like disgusted. You dont need to make me "happy". If you want to live your "oh woe is me" life....go for it. And if I want to feel bad for you do not tell me I can't. It is more like feeling sorry for you.
So you think the cops put your son away? Try again. It is the district attorneys office. Don't you know the system by now? Maybe it is time you learn.
As for Wisconsinrsol....I have taught my children to respect and obey the police. Do what they say. Say yes Mam or Sir. With that said does not mean to talk to them. Know your rights. Understand once you ask for an attorney they have to stop their questions.
When is society going to teach their children? I guess it is easier to teach your children to hate the cops. Run if you see them. Go ahead and fight them. Don't trust them. Is this what it comes down to? Maybe if more people cooperated they would be alive.
And yes...when my daughters boyfriend was arrested for rape, the 1st thing i told him is to not talk to the police. In fact...i used my credentials to get him a message to call me. It is all about protecting your rights. There is a huge differance between talking to the police and obeying their orders.
And no...i dont feel judged. It is all about seeing both sides. A pancake has two sides as thin as it is. You see one way and i am able to see both.
As for finding out one's guilt or innocense? Dont really care. It is not my job to be the judge. I am the fact finder. I write reports. I ask questions. In my book everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
I do like your philosophy about people and their jobs. So you have "been there". Totally agree.
No...i do not feel like i am detached here. Just giving my view.
I wish i had a wand. I wish i could make a difference. I could wish in one hand and shit in the other. See which one fills up quicker.
We can all sit on our ass and bitch and moan. Or we can go out and make a difference. I plan on it. So the ball is in your court. Do you want to be a "victim" and complain how you and your loved ones been victimized by the system? Wow. Just dont invite me to your pity party.

Cops intimidate, twist words, repeat questions over and over, wording them different each time, fishing and trying 'catch out' the suspect......And suspects NEVER lie?????

west:So you think the cops put your son away? Try again

I have the 'confession' and after they took in him handcuffs paraded in front of the neighbors to their squad car.. and questioned him. ,.. they told him that he had over 2000 cp that he downloaded. He said no that it was 2 or 3 they went silent. I have the audio. . they went silent and realized that he didn't do what they told him he did. . but they kept going and got their 'confession'. They could have stopped there, but they didn't want to because being wrong was not an option for them.

I posted the book link above in an earlier post in this thread.

re: victim and feeling sorry

No, my son is not the victim and we pro active with his life. But he was totally fucked over by the cops and the system. To not say it and be silent is ignorant. I'm here to be a voice for my son. I'm here to support others. Getting out the truth is not having a pity party, it's getting out the truth. And that's why I'm here. They want you to be silent and I refuse. They've silenced my son by not allowing him to use the internet but they can't silence me.

I'm not mad, I'm not angry, I'm not feeling like a victim. I just want my son to live a normal life and I won't be silent because someone thinks my words are all about pity.

westL
When is society going to teach their children? I guess it is easier to teach your children to hate the cops. Run if you see them.
__

My son learned from the cops that gave him a hard time his whole life. At the age of 16 he'd go out with his friends skateboarding at 6am and the cops would stop and question him. At the age of 18 he'd be sitting in his car in front of a friends house and the cop would park in back of him, get out of their car and go to his window telling him he better not be messing with any underaged girls. We lived in a middle class neighbor and the cops had nothing else to do but give my son and his teenage friends a hard time. My son learned to 'say whatever they wanted to hear' just so they would go away and leave him alone. Unfortunately he tried that when they raided his home and they twisted those words at sentencing. I didn't teach him to fear and run away from the cops, they taught him that. FYI

It speaks volumes when those who claim LE is mostly made up of honest officers would not trust them to interrogate their own son if he was a suspect in a crime.

I think the cops on the beat are decent people, but the ones who raid houses and interrogate suspects----the detectives---- are usually bullies and liars. They abuse citizens, especially those who are naïve regarding the criminal justice system.

The story of Nak's son----a naïve young man who was easy to confuse and threaten----- where the detectives took him in for questioning and played with his mind to help garner a conviction is not an isolated event. I have heard this same story from many mothers and wives I have spoken to over the years.

They took Nak's son and even though they had no idea if he was guilty, pushed him into a confession. They knew exactly what they were doing, as most interrogations are pre-planned to take advantage of a suspect.

They even have their special technique called the "Reid Technique" which is taught to most detectives. This technique is designed to extract confessions from suspects, but the problem is that research shows the rate of false confessions is rather high when using this method.

http://tinyurl.com/qbkgxbt

""" There has been open criticism of the Reid Method, because of it’s ability to produce false confessions, particularly if misused by police agencies. People who are young, developmentally disabled, or mentally ill are particularly subject to falsely confessing as a result of this method. Regardless, it is widely used within law enforcement."""

This is a pattern of misconduct by the police to extract confessions by any means possible----lying, threatening, playing good cop, etc.----and it is disgusting. Many times this leads to false confessions which leads to false convictions, which is not acceptable.

If anyone still believes that society is well served by officers lying to suspects in an interrogation setting in an attempt to obtain a confession and a subsequent conviction at any cost, here is a statistic that should trouble anyone-----

According to the Innocence Project, 27% of all DNA exonerations were from convictions, many caused by false confessions by a suspect to LE after the officers had used these interrogation techniques.

http://tinyurl.com/omfcogx

http://tinyurl.com/o3ealva

Twenty-seven percent.

This 27% is much too high to be a coincidence. It is a pattern of conduct which imprisons innocent people, yet the police still use it.

If this statistic does not bother people and cause them to question the truthfulness of LE, then nothing will.

Shameful.

rewdaizepam

PS I also do not think Nak is a bitter woman or on a pity pot. I think she is doing all she can as a mother to see her son is treated fairly after being wrongly convicted by a criminal justice system that is totally broken. Are there any mothers here who would not do the same????

Hi West - glad to see you back. You know I have a healthy mistrust for LE. I think one issue is that when you and I went through the police academy (or at least when I did) - although we were taught officer safety we were also taught that it was our duty to make split second decisions and the goal was to NOT shoot if at all possible. Today it seems they are being taught that all citizens are potential enemies. That is certainly a problem. I have to tell you that my experience with a search warrant being executed was somewhat mild compared to others (I think it is worse when the feds are involved) but it was brutal enough to give me a healthy dose of anxiety and PTSD that remains. Just the thought of an LE officer approaching me is enough to set my heart racing - a knock on the front door is just as bad. I have nightmares where I wake up in a sweat because I swear someone is banging on the door.

Here is what I see and this is for Coastie also. Yes suspects will and probably do lie. In my sons case he was fully honest - and do you know why? For one reason becasue all his life I told him to be! I told him the LE were his friends and protectors - I told him that honesty was the best policy and so when the LE officers told him (which they would not have done - they knew exactly who they were for) that is he did not show them where the files where on his computer they would arrest me and his 85 yr old grandmother also he did it. I wish that instead of teaching him LE was good and his friends that I had told him to shut up! Yes he had CP of teenage girls (he was 19 go figure) and he told them right away - there was no need for them to tell me son that they would arrest me too.

They were "nice" enough to let my son say goodbye to me at the front door - when they did I looked at the cop that was taking him away and said does this mean he will go to prison if he is convicted? That cop said "Oh he WILL be convicted" - that shows you the mindset - that cop was certain of it (fooled him becasue the judge did adjudication with held)

The reason the comparison between suspects lying and LE lying is that LE has the power in the situation. It is no comparison at all actually.

When suspects lie in an interrogation, the worst that can happen is they will get arrested and convicted.

When the police use their questionable methods to get confessions---or out and out lies----sometimes people will give a false confession and wind up in prison. Then the Innocence Project has another statistic to add to the 27% that have already been subjected to this unwarranted treatment by LE.

The possible outcomes in both situations are quite different.

rewdiazepam

There is a good point here... something that I know is taught in the SO treatment programs.

POWER.

Offenders are told/taught to recognize the power they have over their victims, it is why no matter how consensual the sex is in situations of adults and minors or guards and inmates, the one in perceived power is the offender.

In an interrogation, the reality is the person being interrogated feels as though they have no POWER, even if they have the power not to talk at all, ask for an attorney or get up and walk out if they are not under arrest. But will most act on their power? Most won't because the perception in the room is that they have NO POWER. Those of you that have been in Law Enforcement tell me it isn't true that the perception of power in an inquiry or interrogation isn't used to help garner information whether you are doing it intentionally or not. You have to admit that when you put on that uniform, garnished that badge, that you didn't feel its "perceived power". Even if your intentions were purely fact finding only. People treated you differently when you were in uniform vs when you were not in that uniform.

It is that power that is the problem when it comes to the way that people are treated by law enforcement. It also proves the point that you cover with 'knowing your rights' vs 'blind trust for your LE comrades. If all cops were on fact finding missions only, willing to vet the information given to them by those that they 'interview' and not repeat their questions, change the way a question is asked, always looking for the slip up, then there would be no reason not to trust them and talk to them without an attorney, cause they are only looking for truth, not just a set of facts that fit a scenario that will result in a conviction. Saying that you believe all people to be innocent until proven guilty and practicing that are two different things.

ksl.com/?sid=36210030&nid=148&fm=home_page&s_cid=toppic1k

Wonder why cops come off as if everyone is a threat? Doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar..

Advocate, did you actually work in LE or just go through the Academy? You can't 'presume' that I percieved power, I absolutely had power, you bet, If I decided you were going to jail, you went to jail, end of story, BUT, I had to have probable cause that an FELONY(we never arrested for a misd.) was committed, regardless of my personal feelings... Your son also had power. He was read his Miranda rights, "You have the RIGHT to remain silent" and"Anything you say WILL be used against you"....When that right is demanded the cop CAN NOT legally ask you one more thing....
If you did not ACTUALLY do the job you can't criticize me, westdanali or any other person who has or guess our motivations for doing our jobs. Remember, we've been on both sides.

Again, the Police only conduct the investigation. It's the prosecutor who charges.

Now I think I've said enough on this, that is the great thing about this Country, you are free to hate anyone you want...

Police in general are not despised! Most people respect the uniform, myself included. People are despised for their actions, whether they are an officer, a teacher, a preacher, etc. My son is a deputy sheriff and I am very proud of that fact! I agree with Independent.... Let's not group everyone together to despise them. That is part of this problem with my other son who is a sex offender. People try to group them. Not judge them on how or why.....