You could post a bad act by sex offender and say this is why the world hates sex offenders? Does that kind of logic make sense? Find a whole a whole group of people guilty for what one person in the group did?

I think my point was missed. What I meant was: incidents like this do nothing to strengthen the public's trust in law enforcement's ability to keep us safe. Power corrupts....

Again you are taking the actions of one cop, as deplorable as they are, and saying this is why all cops do not have the respect of the pubic. This line of thinking is poisoning our world. People are scared to death of sex offenders and why wouldn't they be? With every time they turn around they hear/read/see another story about sex offenders. However when you look at the actual statistics, we know sex offenders do not reoffend at a high rate. This disconnect is ignorance and I do not support even against a class that has personally harmed me, the police.

Independent - there is a big huge difference between the 2 groups. Cops are supposed to be protectors of the public - they have enormous power over our lives. Sex offenders are despised because of media and political fear mongering and not necessarily because of their individual actions. One (the RSO) is a product of a life event and the over criminalization of America. The other (the cop) is a product of corrupted power.

Independent, I like how you condemn me for judging the group for the action of one, and yet you have no idea what my personal situation is. I have a spouse in federal prison doing time for something that he did not seek out doing, he just clicked on the wrong thing one day and now our future is looking pretty bleak. This cop was exposing himself to people in person and all he gets is a slap on the wrist; and he's able to move on with his life without ever worrying about what may happen to him or his family once he's served his time. I have no doubt if this guy in NJ was not a cop he would be looking at a very different future. Also, if the media would focus more on the good things that cops do; rather than sensationalizing whatever it is that gets them ratings; the public's trust may be better than it currently is. I also know cops who are good people and would never use their position of power for personal gain. Also if you have been paying attention to the news at all, there are more than just his one cop in NJ doing deplorable things and yet the consequences are much lighter than they should be.

I'm not condemning you. I am just trying to get people to see that the same "logic" people use against us we then turn around and use it against another group. It's wrong for people to judge us by our worst members and it's wrong to judge others by their worst members. It's bad logic, I am not attacking you personally, as we are all in this mess together. I'm sorry if you felt his was a personal attack.

People who have not personally had a terrible experience with LE sometimes do not realize the full extent of how rotten LE can be; I think a person has to experience it in the form of a false conviction or an injustice to fully understand the depths LE will go to obtain a conviction-----even if the alleged offender was innocent. This is also true regarding situations in which LE engages a citizen.

I realize this story did not actually deal with false convictions, but the theme is the same-----LE has lost any form of moral authority they ever had.

People can read stories about police misconduct, but nothing makes it more real than when you actually see it and experience it.

Some in LE, intoxicated by their own power, are simply ruthless with the manner in which they handle citizens. Just a few days ago, there was a horrific example of LE being "who they are" when they raided a man and woman's house early one morning. The manner in which this raid was carried out was just not necessary.

Read it. Read it again. This is typical behavior of these guys who do these raids. They could just as easily have had some class, knocked on the door, shown the warrant, and then start searching. But that is not what usually happens. The typical raid is a scene of mass confusion with the purpose of instilling fear into the occupants, even if those occupants are no threat and not dangerous. They seem to get a thrill out of battering innocent citizens.

Independent is my friend and an excellent poster and support person---plus an asset to the board----- but sometimes I don't think he truly realizes what LE is capable of. It is not his fault, as he has never experienced it to the degree as an innocent person would. He and I have had discussions on this and we understand each other's position.

You can call it what you want when an innocent person is convicted and how he or she reacts----bitterness, anger, or whatever-----but their feelings are still based on fact, not fiction. Their reaction is based on facts.

As Advocate said, the police are here to protect us, which makes them much different than a sex offender. They are paid to uphold the United States Constitution and keep the citizens from harm's way. They should be held to a higher standard than the normal John or Jane Doe on the street.

I have to tell you that most men or women in the upper echelon of LE look at the very Constitution that protects the American citizen as just a nuisance and they wish parts of it were abolished. I know as I have talked to many people in LE over the years.

The biggest problem is that police misconduct is an epidemic. The shooting unarmed citizens, the perjury----oh the perjury,----the roughing up citizens are all part of a disturbing trend in America and is certainly no isolated incident. If this misconduct was a one time thing, it would be understandable, but we all see the evening news and we are not stupid. The incident of police conduct is a pattern of lawlessness on the part of LE.

If you have ever read an affidavit for a warrant or trial testimony of a member of LE, you would be shocked at the degree and the lengths they will go to avoid telling the truth.

My defense attorney was a federal prosecutor out of Oklahoma City. He even told me that police will lie anytime it benefits the prosecution IF they know they can never get caught. And this was coming from a former prosecutor.

So everyone's experience with LE is different. And no, not all those in LE are corrupt, but many can be dishonest-----and are often.

As far as police shootings, many of these could be avoided, but they aren't.
Why? Many do not really care about the citizens they are sworn to protect.

A recent police group even admitted that in a new released report.

http://tinyurl.com/q27g9vm

These are just facts. LE is out of control and have almost declared war on those they were meant to protect, especially minorities. It does not take a brain surgeon to figure that out.

LE are despised because they have worked very hard to get that label. They have earned it.

rewdiazepam

I am not trying to give the police a break, if you think that is what I am trying to do that is not what I am saying at all.

For those that are religious, Jesus taught a parable about a servant who could not repay his debts. The master who had loaned the money threw the servant and his wife and children in prison and was going to have them sold so the debt could be paid. But the debtor begged for an extension and patience the master had pity on him and then cancelled the debt. The now freed servant goes up to another servant who owed him money and demanded he pay and the other servant begged for mercy and the servant whose debt had been forgiven did not show mercy and had him thrown in prison.

I'm noticing a pattern in human behavior that is ugly, and apparently it is ingrained in us. When people are on the ground and being kicked they instinctually do the same to others. You would think we would learn. You see this in prison with sex offenders. Even people that murdered others look down on sex offenders in prison because it makes them feel better about themselves and the crime they committed. You see it in the victims rights movement with wanting to punish and punish and punish with no regard for what is actually better for society. I like to think we are more civilized than junior high school kids, but we (adults) are just as mean as they are, we just justify it better.

I just think it is wrong to judge a whole group of people by their worst person. I don't like it when people do it to me! I personally hate being thrown in the same group as other sex offenders. I made the worst choice in my life as a young teenager, but I do not feel I am a danger to others. I completed therapy, I completed probation, I have had stable employment for over 10 years, I am married, I haven't had even as much as a traffic ticket on my record since, my static 99 is a 0 for risk, and yet here I am being compared to worst of the worst.

I just do not think it is right, and we as a group, of all people should realize that.

but don't you see that you just did it yourself? People see all sex offenders the same - they see the label - we know the label and the people with it are as varied as the rainbow - but you just laid out all the reasons you are not like those "other sex offenders"

Independant,

I know that you are not trying to give the police or anyone else a break. We have talked about this issue many times.

You said, " I'm noticing a pattern in human behavior that is ugly, and apparently it is ingrained in us. When people are on the ground and being kicked they instinctually do the same to others."

Most of the people on this board, and especially the ones that were not guilty, have certainly been kicked and many are still on the ground. But I don't see anyone here trying to kick anyone else that is down. On the contrary, I see even the people here who suffered a terrible injustice trying to help others here. Many rise to the occasion and go to great lengths to comfort the newbies here or the others who are struggling. I don't see anyone here trying to kick anyone else while they are down.

I personally don't judge people by their crimes in the past. Even in prison, I never cared if a guy was a sex offender because I never knew the facts of the case and I, better than anyone else, knew how easy it is to get convicted. If a person treated me OK, then I was OK with him.

If someone in LE has made a past mistake, I can forgive them as long as they don't continue in their pattern of dishonesty. It is difficult to forgive them, but I do try. I won't lie. I have really struggled with this at times, but I am trying. Just because I try to forgive them does not mean I think they are a bunch of nice people.

Here is the difference, at least how I feel------My attitude toward LE is not a good one. I have seen too many do some really terrible things to make me ever think that they are just a "bunch of good guys." They are not. BUT THAT IS MY ATTITUDE. I DO NOT MISTREAT THEM or even try to.

LE and society, like my attitude toward the police, do not normally like sex offenders. The difference here is that unlike myself and others, they DO attempt to engage in a pattern of harm toward offenders.

You don't usually see sex offenders abusing citizens, but cops do. You don't see sex offenders being vigilantes toward others, but citizens do hurt and kill sex offender for just being sex offenders.

I have never seen a sex offender push an elderly lady down, put a gun to her head, or shoot the family dog during a raid. True, sex offenders are not involved in raids, but the truth is that LE does bully people.

Can you not say that many in LE are bullies by nature? Can you say the same thing about sex offenders? I don't think the mindset of most sex offenders is one of being on a power trip and abusing others, while I DO think that is an attitude all too prevalent in LE.

We are getting confused between ATTITUDE and ACTIONS. LE and some citizens actively and purposely attack the downtrodden, which includes registrants and their families. Their attitude is that they don't like them, so they have no problem harassing them.

Our group may have an attitude of not liking a group, but you don't see us attacking and abusing them.

I don't like LE, but I would never think about harassing them. But LE would think nothing of harassing me if they got the chance. The difference is that one is capable of carrying out their actions and the other group does not.

You just cannot expect people who have been through a terrible experience with LE----as many sex offenders have----to be completely unbiased. We may not like them, but we have no intention of taking those feelings to the point of acting on them.

SOME members of LE have NO problem acting on their disgust against registered citizens. I have seen it and many here have experienced it.

Maybe if sex offenders were LE for a day, they might start whipping up on citizens. Maybe that is just a part of the human condition. Who knows? But the fact is that registrants will never be LE so we will never know.

You said, " I personally hate being thrown in the same group as other sex offenders."

I don't. It does not bother me at all. In fact, I WANT other offenders to know that I am just like they are. I want them to be reassured that I don't judge them or think that my crime was not as bad as their crime. In fact, and many of the ladies can attest, I don't even care what another person's crime is or was.

No matter what crime we committed, when we committed it, or even if we were innocent, we are still ALL sex offenders. The crime does not even matter.

Independent, I know what you are trying to say when you say your are married, you completed therapy, your crime was not a terrible crime, etc. I know you are a good person who just made a mistake.

But is that what we should be concentrating on? Should it matter for the purposes of support? Should it even come into play?

I don't think it should as we are all in the same boat regardless of how we got there

I am more than willing to defend sex offender scoundrels. I have to feel that way. I cannot start picking and choosing who I want to help and who I don't. These issues are human rights issues and civil liberty issues being violated and I have to support all of them, even the ones I may not care for. Any other kind of support is not really support at all.

The relationship with LE and how we perceive each other is a very complex issue. I don't have all the answers and never will. I just try to do my best as we all do.

.rewdiazepam

I'm not sure what I said would make you think I am judging a whole group of people by their worst member. I am saying I am tired of being judged by that standard, and I don't condone that "logic" even against a group that would be easy to hate. And even if you think I am doing the same thing I am not kicking people while they are down or using a groups worst members and extrapolating hat to the rest of the group. Because that is what the one who shall be be named does, she takes the worst of the worst offenders and says we are all like whatever person she posts about. It's bad logic!

I know I am not like the worst of the worst sex offenders and objectively I think anyone can see that as well. I have taken steps to better myself, I did the work in therapy and worked my tail off with my employer and I did not let this ruin my life. I am also not trying to judge others, I realize how fortunate I was, my family my parents, my closest friends, my wife, I am one of the luckiest people in the world.

Rew, you knew I would get involved here, you've known me too long.

"Some in LE are intoxicated by their own power".
Key word, 'SOME', as in not all, or not most, just some.
SOME SO's have used their power to actually abuse children.(Priests, Teachers Scout Masters etc.. and yes, cops). Again, the keyword is SOME. By your posts I would have to believe that because of terrorism, 9/11 etc that all Middle Eastern people want to die in the name of Allah just so the can kill a non believer, this is your reasoning, not mine, but I've been there and met many wonderful Muslims that are appalled by those perverting their religion. Before that I met a family from Palestine and 30 yrs I still talk to them on occasion, absolutley wonderful people. Tell me, should I hate them because of SOME?
By you saying all LE are power hungry, you are saying I was "intoxicated by my power"? Remember what I used to do for a living? True, I wasn't a COP exactly, I was a "Coastie", a Federal Officer(All CG members E4 and up are Federal officers) and i went on drug raids... I fucking HATE drugs(I smoked a lot of giggle bush back in the day and the shit makes you stupid, but that's another discussion)..
My Dad is retired Highway Patrol and I grew up around cops and have cop friends who know i was an RSO. I've seen the biggest, most bad ass cops CRY because of shit they saw or had to do.
Rew, Have you ever had to screw a shotgun into someones ear because he has a .45 inches from his fingers? It was my first time. We were there, along with a Sacramento Sheriff Deputy because the guy was drunk and shooting at people. Had his fingers even 'twitched', I would have killed him. Up until that night, I hadn't even thought about that possibility.
I understand you had a bad experience, I didn't have it even close, BUT, you haven't been on the other side of the "gun"..Most cops are good people, just like most SO' are, you can't judge the many by the few.

One thing I can't let go without saying anything.
"LE has declared war on minorities".
It's a fact that violent crime is higher in minority communities. Why? I can't answer that, if i knew, I'd fix it, but the facts are the facts.
let's start with this latest incident in St Louis...White cop shoots and kills Black 18 yo, people riot, Sharpton, Jackson and Obozo scream RACISM, some go to jail, turns out the kid pulled a gun on the cops....
Same area, Michael"The Gentle Giant" Brown is killed by a white cop, rioters burn and loot their own community never mind that Brown had just committed 'Strong Arm Robbery" ON VIDEO and the evidence PROVES that Brown attacked the cop..
Wheres the out rage on the douche that killed the NOLO cop? The Perp is Black, So was the cop...
How about the two NYC cops that were murdered while sitting in their Patrol car, one Chinese American, The other African American, as was the killer.
I can go on and on but what's the point?
All SO's are gonna go out and rape kids and all cops are gonna go out shoot minorities....Sounds kind of stupid, huh?

Coastie,

You said, ""Some in LE are intoxicated by their own power". Key word, 'SOME', as in not all, or not most, just some."

Exactly. I said some. My posts are usually long so I can cover ALL areas and not be misunderstood what I am trying to convey. Yes, I did. I said "some." That is true and an important observation. I am glad that we have the cleared up.

I have mentioned several times on this forum that not all people in LE are bad people. I would refer you to a post made on 8/16 on this thread where I acknowledged that I have seen some in LE do heroic deeds. In this case it was to try to save an inmate's life. Read my post.

http://tinyurl.com/pg7wyxx

On that thread, I was quite complimentary to LE. Please read the thread and don't put words in my mouth.

I don't understand your reference to Muslims and 9/11 or the mention of Allah. I don't think I have ever said that I dislike Muslims, so ........???

You said, " Before that I met a family from Palestine and 30 yrs I still talk to them on occasion, absolutley wonderful people. Tell me, should I hate them because of SOME?"

Who ever said you should hate people from Palestine because of some? I don't hate all LE because of some. In fact, I have said many times that the cop on the beat is usually a pretty nice guy as he has to interact with the people. It is the detectives and federal agents that I have a problem with. I have said that many times, so, no I don't hate an entire group of people for what a few have done.

You might read my post on this thread. The post is dated 7/16 and I explained my stance. That explanation is clear that I don't put all LE in the same boat.

http://tinyurl.com/qx8qusr

If you can actually read my post on that thread and still say that I hate all cops, then I don't know what to say.

You said, " By you saying all LE are power hungry, you are saying I was "intoxicated by my power"?"

I have no idea if you were intoxicated by your own power, and as I stated earlier with threads to back it up, I do not promote the idea that all in LE are power hungry. Read my previous threads.

You are putting words in my mouth. Read the posts I have given. I never said ALL LE are corrupt.

You said, ". I've seen the biggest, most bad ass cops CRY because of shit they saw or had to do."

I agree. Read my post about the CO who tried to save the inmate's life with CPR. You are attributing things to me that I have never said.

You said, " I understand you had a bad experience, I didn't have it even close, BUT, you haven't been on the other side of the "gun"..Most cops are good people, just like most SO' are, you can't judge the many by the few."

No, if you will read my posts that I have presented, I have explicitly said that not all cops are bad people. I even called one a hero in my own mind for coming the aid of an inmate.

You say that most cops are good people. If you are including detectives and the federal people willing to abuse citizens and commit perjury, then no, they are not good people. I have read too many transcripts where LE has lied to get a conviction to believe that most are "good people."

Perjury, giving false information on an affidavit to get a warrant, and their habit of "parallel investigations" is not the mark of a good or an honest person. And many federal agents and detectives employ that kind of behavior.

You may think perjury, hiding evidence, and misleading the court is the mark of a good person, but I do not.

You said, " Same area, Michael"The Gentle Giant" Brown is killed by a white cop, rioters burn and loot their own community never mind that Brown had just committed 'Strong Arm Robbery" ON VIDEO and the evidence PROVES that Brown attacked the cop."

I have never, ever, ever even hinted that Michael Brown was killed unjustly as I have no idea. If you can find ONE instance anywhere on any forum on the internet where I blamed the cop for Mr. Brown's death, please tell us.

In fact, on numerous occasions I have stated that Michael Brown is dead because he was an idiot and a hoodlum who tried to take the policeman's gun away. Whether Michael Brown's death could have been prevented, he put himself in the position in which the cop may not have had a choice. He wanted to play gangsta, and like Trayvon Martin, he paid for it with his life.

I have never blamed the policeman for Michael Brown's death.

You said, " All SO's are gonna go out and rape kids and all cops are gonna go out shoot minorities...."

Cops are paid to protect the public; it is their job to protect the public and uphold the U S Constitution. SOs are not. We should expect better from the police as more should be expected of them. We have entrusted cops with enormous power, which is not the case with sex offenders.

If you will take the time and go back to read all my prior statements, you will find that I do NOT put all LE in the same category.

Read my posts and what they say instead of what you think they say. My post are pretty clear on my position with LE, so just read them before you question my beliefs in this area.

As far as your and my personal views on LE, we will never completely agrees, so we will just leave it at that. I will never have a warm feeling toward LE that you seem to have, but that is fine. As I said, I respect your opinion, just as I respect you as a person, but I have a harsher view toward the police than you ever will.

rewdiazepam

Coastie,

Also, the reason I have a hard line toward LE on this forum is this-----I don't want some naive soul to think "many cops are good guys," and then agree to talk to the cops in an interrogative type situation. Then what happens is that the "good guys" take everything out of context and leave the family unable to get a fair investigation.

Are you saying that police conduct themselves in an honorable way in these interrogations or when they tell the family "just tell us everything and it will all be OK?" Do you actually think the cops really think that if the suspect tells them everything that it will be OK? You shouldn't and I hope you have more sense than that, as the cops who say this know they are lying. When the police tell any suspect something like that, they know damn well they are lying.

And this lying greatly diminishes the suspect at any chance of a fair investigation and possible fair trial.

Is tricking a possibly innocent person so a conviction can be made and a possible prison sentence the mark of a "good guy.?" No.

You say that not all cops are bad people, and I agree, but I do know one thing------ALL the cops that do interrogations use these dishonest tactics to rob someone of a fair investigation. Is that what "good people" do?

I don't want it on my conscience that I misguided someone in that situation.

You know how cops lie and twist a defendant's statement in an interrogation. Surely you do not think such action is the mark of "good people."

And, BTW, almost ALL the people that do the interrogations make an concerted effort to lie to the defendant, twist his words, and play on his fear and ignorance of the system to gain a conviction.

Surely you don't approve of this.

If your son was accused of a crime, would you instruct him to talk to the police or would you tell him to exercise his Fifth Amendment protection against incrimination? And if you wouldn't, why not, if the cops are "good guys?"

rewdiazepam

I would never, EVER talk to the police under any circumstances. I would always advise to use your 5th amendment right. My reasoning as you and I have talked a lot about this Rew is that the cops have no control over what happens with the information. They are the gatekeepers into the criminal justice system, but they have very little power to make changes to it. Even if a cop actually believed what you were saying and wasn't lying to get you to talk, the police officer is not the one who decides if the case moves forward, that would be the DA. The DAs have more power and inflict much greater harm to people. They play judge, jury, and executioner because 95% of convictions are plea bargained.