Once again, Missy and SJA have said a lot of what I was thinking reading your updates, so I want to second their advice.

Also, I just feel in reading your descriptions, that she is very used to being in charge. In charge of her other ex. In charge of you. She calls the shots. She needs you?-- you're supposed to be there. She doesn't have to reciprocate and implies that it is ludicrous for you to expect that. She is a classic manipulator. A lot probably started as coping mechanisms for her childhood, but still no excuse for her behavior as an adult. I am not judging her for her childhood, it just provides insight. Often damage as a child will lead you into unhealthy coping mechanisms as an adult, and that sounds like the case with her. So again, no judgement, but this really illuminates that she has her own emotional and psychological baggage that is very heavy and until she deals with it, she will not be able to have a healthy relationship. Which unfortunately is where you have to be on the receiving end of it, UNTIL you say enough is enough and stop letting her draw you in. I'm sorry if that sounds mean, b/c that is not my intent at all. But she has unhealthy coping mechanisms, and it will affect you until you remove yourself from it.

She doesn't have the right to set the tone for your "normal" holiday schedule or day to day schedule for that matter. Who cares what arrangements her other ex agreed to, that does NOT mean you have to follow suit. She might think that it does, but it does NOT. You have the right to assert what you want for your self and your son. My take on Fathers Day would be this: he's your son, you get him. If you want him to see his Gpa that day, then set aside a few hours to drop him off, and go get yourself a swedish massage or a hot fudge sundae or any other pleasure to pamper and spoil yourself for 1-2 hours. You do NOT have to give into what you feel she expects of you.

I honestly feel that her corralling her exes into all of the family events is the exact opposite of a healthy environment. It sounds like the other ex and his spouse are a little scared of her, so they too just give her what she wants and then get the heck out of Dodge. You have to look out for your needs and your son's needs. Kids understand clear boundaries such as "mommy and daddy aren't in married love. We both love you and will both always be in your life." Kids pick up on people playing fake nice, long before your son's age, so doing these things thinking it's for his benefit probably will actually have the opposite effect. And, as Missy said, you don't want to emulate that for you son. He needs to see you displaying healthy self esteem, not being her door mat. Again, not trying to be mean at all. It's just hard to see her treat you this way, you clearly don't deserve it.
(((((HUGS)))))

Your situation resonates with me. I too struggled with boundaries. Especially in the beginning, because I would have done anything to put my family back together again. I was so afraid that, by standing up for myself, I would ruin any chances of changing his mind. That I would only reinforce his "bitch" image of me and make the OW look even more appealing. What I learned over time is my doormat attitude, didn't make me attractive to him. I imagine my weepy, desperation was an ego boost, but in the end repellent. I still wake up everyday with the wounds, but I'm making progress. The number one thing that has helped me? Boundaries. I drew some definitive lines in the sand to protect ME. I know we are told over and over that you must be "friends" for the kids sake. You must find ways to "hang out" for the good of the kids. I'm here to tell you... in the beginning, you must be SELFISH. Protect yourself first. Heal now, so you can be better for the kids later. Much later you can work on the "friends" & "hanging out", but in the beginning that lets-be-friends mentality will only cause you unfathomable pain. Some of the rules I implemented that helped me
1) when you pick up/drop off the kids, there is no reason to come into the house. Unless you are dealing with an infant. Kids can walk themselves to and from a car on their own. No need to see the ex.
3) No more "family time". No joint dinners, movies, or activities. Holidays are split &, if a activity must be together (like a birthday party), then it happens on neutral territory & no "dates" allowed.
2) I am not your babysitter & your not mine. If it's your scheduled time with the kids & you make plans with "friends", then it's up to you to make babysitter arrangements. I don't need to know what you are doing, when or with whom. Ignorance is bliss.
3) We will mainly communicate by email or text and ONLY about the children. If my ex writes/texts random messages that do not pertain to my children, he will be ignored or receive a one word response (at most). Do not take the bait!
4) I am no longer your person to lean on. You chose to walk away from me and our family. Don't turn to me when your life starts to crumble. You don't get to have me waiting in the wings. You let me go, I'm going.

Hope that helps you a little.

Well ty for sharing. I now personally have a glimpse as to why you continue to deal with the mess. Sometimes when you have already been through it....you also tend to be conditioned to it and can put up with a lot more than others would allow themselves:-) hugs to you.

Ty for sharing.

Thank you all for your experience and advice. Your sincerity comes through and means a lot to me.

It is obvious I am stuck and need help to do what needs to be done. Excellent examples of boundaries, emotional. I tried to set one and cancel the family dinner at my place, and you saw the thread of how that worked out. Looking back at it, she reacted strongly and I fell apart and ended up apologetic and back-tracking fast and far.

I am seeing a therapist tomorrow, and hopefully I'll get the help to do what I can't seem to do on my own, and maybe even some insight into what is motivating me to crave and need her love, approval, friendship, etc. Am I so dependent upon her approval that my own self-image, sense of worth, is driven by it? I know that can't be healthy. I don't know what it is that is keeping me at her beck and call anytime she dangles the bait, or keeps me starving for scraps that are given scarcely, and apparently from what you all see, manipulatively. I seem to be blind and broken.
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Its simple to me. All I see is someone who wants love and affection. You feel If you do everything just right she will give you love and affection. I think someone posted a link regarding trauma bonding and maybe it applies and maybe It does not but I believe that when you do not get the love an affection in childhood then you cling to any hopes of love and affection. This is what I see happening and I wish you the very best. Hugs to you.

Thank you CharlieGirl. I'm doing better around breaking away today, and I hope I can someday find love and affection with someone who appreciates me, enjoys receiving love, affection and support from me and who will be a true partner to me.

The most difficult thing now is facing tomorrow. I agreed to take my son, allowing them to have the night together alone in our old house, our old bed. I'm doing my best not to think about it, but it does keep breaking through. I think it is the right decision to take my son, rather than whatever "other arrangements" she was going to make. I don't know if that entailed a stranger watching him since all the kids will be in Wisconsin, or if it entailed introducing him to my son, giving him earplugs and telling him he is not to come in the bedroom. Okay, so my mind is running again... Ugh.

I'm really sorry you're having to deal with this. This is my biggest fear, and I'm sure I'll be confronted with it by year end. People can be so heartless. I can only suggest take it one day at a time, and don't do anything irrational that jeopardizes your ability to see your son. Then she wins, and you'll feel even worse. I know it eats at you. Stay strong brother.

My divorce was final a long time ago (feb 2011) and I am basically healed and over all the crap my ex put me through, but your sitch sounds so much like mine back in 2010 and 2011.

I'll tell you what I did that helped me heal and made the ex start to feel the pain. See, as long as she is allowed to continue picking at the wound, you will not heal. As long as she is allowed to hurt you and feed off that pain, she will feel rewarded and continue on this cruel path.

First, I bought my children their own cell phone. Then I got an account at one of those websites that allow for co-parenting communication in a more controlled and monitored (for future court evidence) environment. Then, I sent the ex an email saying that he is blocked from my phone and all his emails are filtered to go directly to the trash. Any communication with me would be only through this website (gave the link) and restricted to the subjects of co-parenting and visitation. I gave him the kids' new phone number and invited him to call his kids and be a real father as much as he would like, reminding him that using them as messengers to me is abusive and would be brought up in court if it occurs. I set up a deal with a friend of mine to be there for drop offs and pickups of the kids during visitation so I would not have any contact at all with him. I left all emotion out of the communication...these people literally feed off your pain, so don't show it, ever.

For me, this was very hard to do. We had been together 15 years and married for 10. My happiness was my family and marriage. My identity was his wife. I so badly wanted to do anything and everything to get him to come back home. But my heart did not have my best interest in mind, only my logic did. I could not emotionally detach until I let go of him and I could not let go of him as long as there was contact, even painful contact. When he was cruel, that only made me want to make things right even more.

I think you are stuck in that same cycle. Honestly, you have to disengage and end all communication with her (as much as is possible while co-parenting). And you have to get a life that is your own. There is no more happiness coming from her and there will not be. She has made that abundantly clear. Any hopes and dreams you have of rebuilding need to be put away in a dark place until you are able to be happy and whole without her. Harsh, I know and I am sorry, but it is the truth.

Oh, in case you are curious about how my tactics worked out over time...

His girlfriend started emailing and calling me since he could not. I made the mistake of engaging that and suffered for it quite a bit. Then I blocked her emails and phone number.

I moved on with my life, started a business, moved to a new place, made new friends, volunteered with some non-profits, and kept myself busy.

When I would get nostalgic about our past and our family, I programmed myself to immediately turn that longing into memories of the most painful things he had done...In the beginning there is no use in remembering the good times.

After 2 years, he started behaving like a decent human, he even tearfully apologized for what he had done to me and the kids. From there we slowly built a friendship on my terms. Anytime I felt he was out of line, I cut off contact. It only took a few weeks of this for him to learn my boundaries and comply with them.

Now, a little over 4 years out we are friends. I am still a bit bitter about the kids loosing their intact family, but my emotions are dull over what I lost. Karma got him good and he suffers daily with what he did. He now sees how valuable I am and how awesome the kids and I are as a family. It is now his loss, not mine.

The kids suffered less because I put a stop to the drama. Yes, it is better for the kids if their parents are friends, but it is most harmful to them when parents are enemies. Much better to be nothing than to be hurtful. As long as someone is feeding off of your pain, friendship is not going to happen. Once they understand and comply with your boundaries, you can reconnect, but not a moment before.

As for the other guy, I really do understand. My ex was engaged to another woman before the divorce was final. She let me know that she loved them like they were her own (even though she had never met them) and that she planned to be a family with them. They did meet her once and she was very nice to them, they liked her...which hurt me more than anything. Unfortunately, there is nothing that can be done about it, it is an severe injustice that you just have to accept or else it will tear you apart.

Just know that no matter what, your son is yours...he sees you as his father and no matter what relationship he has with another guy, the bond and love he has with you will always be much greater than anyone else. You cannot be replaced in your son's heart no matter how nice or loving another man is to him. Your son can even love and bond with a stepdad, but that will pale in the depth of the love and connection he has with you.

realitymaker, I see your point and how contact continues to hurt. I did my last activity with her this morning. On Tuesday, I had asked to walk or ride with her this morning. She had said she needed to decide as the previously posted email exchange had been "so draining" and she didn't want to be subjected to more of that, etc., and I assured her I wanted back to normal, etc.

Anyway, she finally made a decision and texted me last night around six that she had to walk or ride early, and she preferred to ride at 7:00 this morning. She also said she had an appointment at noon and had to be at the hospital, so I said I would take my son with me right after the ride. She said she could drop him later as he isn't afraid to be alone during the day and she wasn't going out until later. I said that made no sense to leave him home alone, and that I would take him unless she planned to spend time with him.

So, I met her at the river and we rode. However, this allowed her to twist the knife a little more. She "let drop" that the trail we usually ride was closed at the railroad trestle due to an eagle nest on the trestle. She said she knew this because her ride buddy had shared it with her when they went for a ride.

Of course I took the bait. Ride buddy?? It seems she had put a note on her bulletin board at work looking for someone to ride with her as a way to get out and meet guys. Right after she made love with me, or possible before looking back on her not being available right after we made love as she was going out to ride and think,

We drove back to the house so I could get my son, and I went to take her bike off her car, and she quickly said no - leave it. So I left it, but then thought if she has an appointment and has to be at the hospital at noon, someone might well steal the bike. It is a nice one. So I texted her to ask if she had a way to lock the bike since it might be stolen at the hospital. She texted back that she's not taking it to the hospital.

So, I thought that was odd since it was already almost 9:30. Then it hit me. Oh, she has an "appointment" and has to go to the hospital. That was carefully worded. She must have an appointment with her ride buddy or date to ride at noon, and then she is going to the hospital for one of her patients. The two were not related.

Anyway, at this point I'm so tired of it all that I almost, very close to almost, don't give a sh*t. Whatever. The only part that stings a little is the timing of making love with me and telling me she loved me, to looking for a ride buddy as a way to meet guys no later than the next day or two.

Anyway, I have my son now and we'll have a good day together. I won't be asking her to walk/ride again, and I see what you mean, realitymaker, contact just gives her an opportunity to hurt me so she can feed off that pain. Why else would she even have mentioned that? There was no reason to tell me. I'm so done with her games.

You're setting yourself up to drive yourself crazy. I get why you do it. But you're doing it to yourself.

I agree with some of the others with structuring the conversations.

What I did was this. 99% of our conversations went to email. I would read emails only once a day. Around noon for me. Then I would wait 24 hours to reply to anything. This meant that I had to think about it. It didn't totally keep me from going off, but it greatly limited it. We had maybe three or four slow arguments, but that was it.

Opening them at noon, meant that my first thought on waking up wasn't about him, nor was my last thought at night. It helped me sleep better.

My ex got used to not having instantaneous contact with me, and I emotionally weaned off of him.


I'm 7 years past the separation, 6 past the divorce. Our kids are doing well.

Remember this: you can hate the guy as much as you want, but your kids are going to have to live with them. In the end, it was most important to me that my kids learned the general lessons of being respectful to all adults (even ones they hated); and when, where and how it was appropriate to express feelings. (They could love or hate 'house rules', but they had to follow them whether it was at school, my house, their dad's, a friend's house, grandparents', wherever.)

These many years later, my kids get how some of their dad's actions hurt me, and my ex actually feels embarrassed over some of his actions.

'Taking the high road' is being the person that you want your kids to grow up to be.

I wasn't perfect, and it often hurt to do it, but it was worth it.

Patti

Patti, I don't hate the guy. I don't even know the guy as we weren't actually introduced - just left standing there awkwardly looking at each other for a minute until I decided to take my son's stuff in the house.

I like the idea of email once a day, or in her case text once a day as she texts. I like not responding right away. That sounds wise.

I should be very angry with her, but I have never been one to hold onto anger. I quickly fade to sad, instead.

The main part of the pain right now is how she could reconnect with me and progress to making love with me, then decide to post for a bike buddy the next day and start dating the new guy the next week. I'm having a hard time with that.

Then when she asked me to watch my son tonight so they could be alone together, it hit me even harder. I could have been bitter or spiteful and refused, solely to make it difficult for them to be alone, but what's the point in that? That is not how I'm made. Add to that her vague threat to make "other arrangements" if I didn't take him. That wasn't necessary. Anyway, I went to a show with my brother last night and got home late, then got up a 6am to install the bike rack and meet her for a ride by the river. Then she dropped the whole "bike buddy to get out and meet guys" thing on me.

I have my son with me now, and I'm just numb. I'm not crying anymore and I'm not angry, just profoundly, deeply sad in my core, and numb all over. I just want to sleep. Part of me wants to never wake up, because for a second I think she is next to me in bed, then reality rushes in and the pain returns.

I know it will pass with time, but unfortunately there is no fast forward button. I'm also trying to resist the urge to try and find someone to date right away, as I need to heal first, but the pain of utter rejection coupled with the loneliness of the void has me wanting someone to love who will love me back. Yet, I know that would be a poor decision, and may be reactionary to her dating so fast, or just me trying to fill an emptiness that I really first need to fill from inside.

I am so lost, and that's a poor place to be dating from as I have little to offer right now, and I wouldn't want to end up with another like my Ex. Looking back objectively, I see a pattern of emotional abuse and manipulation, and as someone pointed out, whether from lack of childhood love, from childhood trauma or some other reason, the more abuse she dished out, the more I just tried to be more perfect to cling to the scraps of affection she dangled when it suited her. That wasn't healthy.

I know everyone on here is hurting too. I wish you all peace and comfort.

Oh, and my original post and main point is that I wish my Ex would be more sure of her new guy before he enters my son's life. Under two weeks of dating him seems too fast to me. That doesn't mean I hate the guy, and I know it will inevitably happen, just not yet please.

So today she says she had been thinking about dating for some time, and that she had posted a note on her bulletin board at work looking for bike buddies as a great way to meet guys. This was as she told me she loved me and we finally had sex (I won't say made love because while that was true for me, clearly it was just sex to her). She posted the note either right before or the day after and decided to date her new man, with whom she says she has an open and honest relationship already, that same week. God it hurts. Too bad there isn't a way to erase memories. I need to put her behind me and move forward, but the memories keep popping up and rekindling the pain.

By the way, I changed my ID on this site to ensure privacy.