With very few exceptions (and there always are exceptions)the people on this site who are cheaters cannot regard themselves as victims. Nit-wits, yes; Victims? Sadly, No.

yorik, i think emerald and kristi already have pretty good replies to the whole "pain is pain" thing

Frank, let me rephrase: I didn't go out and cheat on my husband and I never ever would have. A desire to explore my bisexuality was not a big enough reason to cheat had he said no. Also, I'll say to you as well, see what emerald and kristi said. I agree with them.

quince, maybe i'll eventually work up the stomach to go back, but all the remorse in the world still won't make it easy to forgive people who treat others badly. Forgiving maliciousness is hard for me. Also, cheating is not part of the core personality, but the selfishness that causes people to cheat, is. Like I said, behaviors can be altered, thought patterns can be altered, but a selfish person is a selfish person and, usually, nothing short of a traumatic event (such as a near death experience, for example) can change something so set and hardwired. A good example would be that my husband is abusive.. do I think that the core part of himself that causes him to be abusive will change? absolutely not.. and because of that there's always the danger of relapse. But I believe he can learn to alter his behavior and thoughts so that he can stop acting on his urges.

So let me get this strait. Your husband was ok with you persuing you bisexualality> He let you go outside the marriage for sex?

Okay, here's MY moment of truth. If Emeraldeyes can do it, so can I. About 10 years ago I did something similar to hlks. Decided that I need to go "explore." Had a couple of flings with women. I was married at the time. I felt really guilty even though my stbx encouraged me to have those flings. I told myself it wasn't cheating per se, as he said he was fine with it and even told me to go.

But even then I knew it wasn't right. After 2 flings I stopped. I couldn't continue with what I felt was being unfaithful to my (then) husband. We went to counselling, I went to counselling and I thought we had worked through it. I swore to never go outside the marriage again. And I didn't.

Fast forward 10 years, we're getting divorced because of infidelity on his side this time. And this past of mine is being thrown in my face. I can now fully appreciate the pain that I caused him all those years ago. He never got over it. Does he have a right to throw this in my face at every opportunity? Maybe, maybe not. It was 10 years ago and my feeling is that he should be past it, but we all heal at different rates. Maybe he just never really dealt with the issues in the first place.

So, in my opinion (and this is just my opinion) going outside the marriage (sanctioned by the spouse or not) is cheating. PERIOD. Do I regret what I did? Absolutely. Do I believe people who once strayed can change and remain faithful? Yes. Had infidelity been the only reason for our split, I would have attempted to work through it. Sadly, there are many other issues that, to me, are even bigger than infidelity within our old dysfunctional marriage. It is those things, more than the cheating that angers me.

Emerald, I agree. So often people here who have cheated claim that those of us who are hurting about being betrayed are condescending, look down on those who have cheated, or try to claim that we have never done anything wrong before ever. NOT TRUE!!!

I will admit to many horrible things I have done in my life. Just because cheating isn't one of them doesn't mean I think I am better than those who made that choice. I have stolen money from family members. Once I attacked someone verbally- I mean really genuinely cut into her and showed absolutely no mercy. I found out later that she killed herself shortly after. I was a BRAT in high school. I walked around and treated those who weren't as popular as though they were untouchables and not even human. I will admit to getting even with people who have hurt me in the past- and most of which I feel justified in. Am I free from bad choices? No.

I guess it sounds harsh, but I think that any OW/OM that knew the person they were involved with was with someone else, cannot be a victim. To me, it doesn't matter if they were lied to as well, told that the marriage was bad or that they were leaving. It doesn't take much common sense to understand that if someone is lying to their spouse, they are probably lying to you as well. If they didn't have that common sense, tough sh*t. Then they are a moron, not a victim.

At least in my mistakes, I know I was in the wrong. I didn't walk around with a "woe is me" attitude like I was some kind of a victim of the rest of the world when I decided to yell at the girl who killed herself. That falls on MY shoulders. I have to live with that. Is that kind of responsibility too much to ask from others? I just don't get it.

Kristi, you are wise beyond your years. My daughter is dealing with peer issues. Girls are brutal towards each other. Three days back to school and she is in tears. Dreading school every morning. Is is an attractive 14yr old girl and the other aare relentless on their picking at her??? What do you think?

The hardest thing I had to realize was that as much as infidelity hurts the person who has been cheated on, to some degree it also hurts the person who did the cheating.

In both cases, I would think that was natural; the person who was cheated on feels betrayed by their spouse/SO. And the person doing the cheating has a long laundry list of things to examine.

As it was said earlier, the cheaters who come here are not your spouse. They are not your SO.

I am guilty of lumping them altogether. I remember almost a year ago when I first came on these boards, I had no sympathy for cheaters. I would gleefully tear them up one side and down another because for me it was impossible to separate what my ex did from what people who came on here did.

Before I go any further, I am not condoning cheating. I don't believe there are any good reasons for it. Great excuses, yes Reasons, no.

I believe that any attempt to talk to someone who has cheated takes some amount of willingness to be open, to be vulnerable, and to actually listen and not just react. I believe that this is a luxury that not too many people who have been cheated on can afford.

Affairs are born out of lust, out of selfishness and with no thought as to the other person it affects.

So the people who have been cheated on sit around, anxiously trying to apply logic to it all. To figure it all out. To try to make sense of it all.

There is no logic to it. You can sit down and plot out every e-mail, every text message and every phone record, and you still won't know why it happened. Every situation is different and unique to the individuals involved.

It's tempting to unleash the pain and anger on the people on here because they are faceless and nameless. I saw too many times where I didn't feel like a cheater had "paid" enough for what they had done.

To me? No. But I felt sympathy for their spouse. But that was not my place. I should not have done that.

I should have saved that up for the people who do come on here and brazenly advertise that they cheated, they're proud of it, and they'll keep doing it.

One woman in particular was extremely happy that she was sleeping with the father of one of the children she was looking after at a daycare. Even though he was married, and she knew this, she did not see anything wrong with this set up. Those were the posts where I felt like I didn't have to hold back.

But for the most part, whether you want to believe it or not, people from both sides do some here looking for answers.

Sometimes the answers are in the stories that are told here; "I didn't know it would hurt you so much."

Sometimes it's the conversations we wish we could have with our spouses/SOs that we may never have because we feel like they don't ever really listen, and everything is our fault.

I am not apologizing for cheaters. And for the few of them that come here sincerely looking for answers and to make amends, I truly wish you well.

Cheaters may be victims of their own stupidity but that is about it. I think my H was the victim of a very cunning and manipulative woman in the form of the OW, but was he the victim of the affair? Absolutely not. He was a victim of her control once he hooked up with her, but he made the choices and could have chosen to behave otherwise. He could have chosen not to engage with her in the first place thereby avoiding her control and manipulation altogether.

No one can really make you do something that you absolutely do not want to do. Even if they have a gun to your head you can still choose to take the bullet rather than do what they are ordering you to do.

As for OPs who know the person they are hooking up with is married. I have said this before and I will say it again. They deserve what they get. Even if the person claims they are separated unless the OP can confirm that that person is living separate from their spouse and things are moving toward divorce they should steer clear. If they don't they have no one to blame but themselves when they get their heart broken.

There are plenty of people out there who are pursued by married people and they may even be extremely attracted to that married person, but they resist and to coin a phrase "just say no". If you truly value your sanity and really are afraid of getting your heart broken DO NOT GIVE SOMEONE WHO IS MARRIED a chance to break your heart. The odds are stacked against you right from the start.

On another point - if a spouse gives their spouse permission to have sex with other people IMHO that isn't cheating. It may be adultery, but it is not cheating. Cheating implies secrecy and betrayal thus the name cheating. If you give your spouse permission to have sex with other people don't cry foul when they do and do not use it against them later. That's just not fair.

quince, yes, he encouraged it actually even when I was hesitant. And not just for sex, no, but for a relationship. It was never cheating since infidelity is defined as doing something outside of the agreed upon boundaries in a relationship and it never caused him negative feelings. He was quite upset that it didn't work out and tried to keep me and her together till the very end. he's bisexual too, so I think he realizes how it feels.

to momsren, if it was causing him pain he should have told you so! Had my husband ever told me he has any negative feelings about me having a woman I would have stopped in a heartbeat. And if he told you to do it, then he can't throw it in your face as cheating because it wasn't.

My mind is easy because I've never hurt someone through my selfishness the way cheaters do. It's not the action, it's the consequences of that action that make it right or wrong. Causing pain to another person is not okay. Some people think porn is cheating (I have a friend who told me she caught her husband cheating on her by watching porn while she was sleeping). Whether you think it's really cheating or not (and most people would say no) it's the fact that it caused my friend pain and her husband knew this. That made it wrong. That did make it cheating.

kristi, that's why i'm homeschooling. yikes!

i CANT HAVE FEMALE FRIENDS ,HE PUTS THE MOVE ON THEM .SOB

Just wanted to add that I went back to the group to see what I could learn... I still couldn't read the posts... Even if the topics were okay, the responses still angered me too much. Not everyone's response was infuriating, but the ones that were, were too much for me to handle.

A few more people who are Cheaters and/or OM/OW who have been helpful and I am friends with. Pixie and Yorick, happy to know both of you!

OK, Barb is about to make fun of herself! Leftover hippy, who can't carry a tune, gets her imaginary gutair and starts a sing-along. What else but "Blown' In The Wind" followed by "If You're Going To SanFrancisco You'd Better Wear Some Flowers In Your Hair."

Since I am bi, but have never really had the chance to explore it, when I was pretty sure that the hubs and I would end up parting, I had real hope for a career as a LESBIAN FOLK SINGER!

Is anyone else familiar with the World Of Lesbian Folk Singers Who Cannot Sing! I absolutely love the lyrics of the Goddess Worshipping, Sisterhood Of All Womyn they sing, but they cannot carry a tune!

And oddly enough, I had assumed that the lack of ability to, say, sing on key, would mean that one could not reasonably be a singer! Apparently not! Names of groups that come to mind, Triple Crescent, Justina and Joyce, singers Betsy Lippitt.

Really, ladies, you should know better than that! LOL!

You know.. I'm curious.. for the people who are the "live and let live" kind of people here. The ones who say "they have nothing to do with you" or "you should mind your own business" or things like that... in school when you saw a someone bullying one of your classmates did you just walk by? Did you ignore it and say "oh well, it has nothing to do with me"? Because I didn't. I stood up for those people. It's not that I have an inability to separate myself from the other victims.. I know that those cheaters aren't my husband... I would have been angry before I was cheated on.. because I can't stand bullies.I can't stand people who hurt others knowingly and willingly. Should I have compassion for them? Should I be understanding or empathetic? They are the bullies. If they had compassion, understanding, or empathy to begin with then they wouldn't have done what they did. So I'm going to stand my ground and I will not offer them any part of the pain or sympathy I feel for their victims. They do not deserve it.

Hlks and Kristi,

Hlks, I also have empathic abilities and I wish I did not! Feeling other people's pain is ZERO FUN! And I absolutely despise bullies because I was one of those kids that were the victim of the "popular girls" aka bullies.

I have always been "different." It used to bother me, now it is a source of great strength and comfort to me!

Kristi,

One of the worst parts of what my H did me was to hold me up to public ridicule and contempt by telling lies about me on this website. Aren't you glad that you had the courage to come clean about what you did? It feels really good to have a clear conscience, doesn't it?

And my H has definitely bullied me quite a lot in the past!

Oh, and by the way, I am about ready to tear that Dorian Grey dude a new butthole for the way he responded to your post on "the other group."

For everybody, one of the main things I did to make it through school was to tell myself that the people who were being so cruel to me were doing it for absolutely no reason, I had never done anything to them and why did I care what people like that thought about me.

I really don't care what my H's former OW thinks about me, so I doubt she has the power to hurt me anymore. I have been trying to use that same technique on my H, unfortunately, I do care what he thinks about me, so that technique does not work!

I honestly hate to validate your venomous little rant with a response. Tell me something, which is worse: someone who commits adultery or someone who has been hurt and then out of some displaced sense of perverted moral judgment wants the world to burn for it?

Personally, I do not recall having voted you the moral conscience of society. I'm sure whatever happened to you was terrible, but this holier-than-thou, righteous anger, woman scorned schtick is tiresome at best. I've read about 4 of your posts and have observed that you are just as flawed, just as mortal as the rest of us: even the cheaters.

If the other boards offend you, don't go there. Lighten up. Take few deep breaths and give peace a chance.