I'm someone who was cheated on, and I find it easier to talk to people on the Cheaters Anonymous and Out of the Fog groups than it is to talk to people in the Infidelity forum. This thread is an example of the reason why. There's a lot of raw anger and emotion in the Infidelity forum. Understandably so, but it's misdirected. Whatever is or isn't actually taking place in the CA or OotF groups, these people aren't YOUR spouses. Any anger you feel toward them is misplaced. They're complete strangers to you.

There are people who were the OP and need to understand what they did and the ramifications of what happened to them. They deserve a place to talk without being attacked as much as anyone.

And there are others who, yes, don't express remorse, claim that everything is over (I think they're kidding themselves), and will never tell their spouses. But you know, opinions and people change. Someone who is remorseful for having been the OP wasn't always so filled with regret. Once upon a time, they were as unremorseful at the cheating spouse who will never tell his/her spouse about his/her affair. Maybe by talking about their experiences and seeing the experiences of others in similar positions they might change their minds.

But perhaps most importantly to me, I've seen time and again someone come here who was the OP and reach out for help. And they get their asses handed to them. You know what? These aren't the people who fucked our wives and husbands. These are complete strangers. What does it say about us when we can't be compassionate to a fellow human being?

If you can't stop from projecting (and it's hard to do), then at least just let them have their own corner of the site in peace.

Akalost, while I agree with most of what you said, there was one thing that I found very wrong and untrue:

"It pain and emotional rollercoaster is very similiar to what the betrayed go through."

No offence, but the pain that a cheater goes through is NOTHING compared to the pain their partner goes through. It compare it is almost as insulting as a slap in the face.

i agree with kristi... the pain the cheaters go through is nothing like what they put other people through..mainly for the reason that it was a choice they made rather than something that was forced upon them. as for being god's children. i'm not christian and i believe you should pay for your actions. they deserve every bit of pain they get because it was their choice.

if you are n the abuse support group at all you'll see something similar... do abusers feel pain? yes. do they genuinely get upset about what they did? yes.. usually.. but the pain that they are going through in, say, a divorce, was brought about by their own actions.

cheating is a form of abuse and I just can't bring myself to feel bad for what they're going through. And I don't think you need a support group because you were selfish and hurt other people with your narcissism.

and to Frank. people do not change... certain things about them can change.. behaviors and thought patterns.. but a person's core self doesn't change. You know, they say your base personality is set by the time you're three.

and it's not like i joined the group just to bitch at them. I let them all be.. let them all bitch and moan about poor them... but i reserve the right to do the same.

I appreciate the cheaters anonymous group. I have not seen any "bragging" or what you seem to have felt there. I must have missed the thread you are referring too. I have to say most of the people om there have been very nice and informative to me and have helped me to understand the other side of the issue. Im sorry you didnt get that from the sight. I have some great friend on there both that were the cheaters and the OPs. It a support group just like this one for healing and repair. They do not advocate cheating at all and most know the pain they have caused and are themselves going through the pains of it all too.

hlks,

I understand what you're saying. I started the support group after a year of coming to DS and reading through the Infidelity group. I continually came back to read over and over again the pain that was being felt from the betrayed. I still continue to read the Infidelity threads to understand more. Then one day I realized DS had created a way to start your own group. I needed someone to talk to. After reading the threads for so long, I felt like I had learned a lot but yet I couldn't speak to anyone about what I had done and the emotions I was feeling. I do believe you're right that your core personality is developed at a very early age. Mind you, most two or three year olds aren't lying and cheating.......that doesn't come till much much later. Having been in many long term committed relationships where there was no infidelity, I can tell you that this was new to me. I did not prey on anyone, nor did I wait for the right circumstance. My situation was both unique and ordinary, just as the betrayed have unique and ordinary situations. If you read the basis of the group, you would learn is states specifically that it's not a brag group and would hopefully help people find answers. I have not posted on the Infidelity boards because I didn't feel comfortable. And I am only posting now because I want you to know from me, the group was not started to hurt other people. If it helps cheaters understand themselves better and know why they did it, don't you think that's a good thing? I know I do. I have always felt remorseful and compassionate towards the betrayed. You have to understand that the discussions are about figuring ourselves out, not about confessing our sins. I am not a strict monitor and sort of let the group "be" and change as it will. But I do at times delete posts if they are offending. If I do however, think it will help someone gain insight, even if it's only themselves, then I let it stay there which is 99.9% of the posts. I hope you will eventually come to understand that the group is not there to hurt the betrayed, but in a sense to learn how to not cheat again........ If there was somewhere else we could have gone, we would have I'm sure, but I did not know about it....so I started the group. I hope you can eventually understand my intentions.

Well said atacrossroads! It IS tough to take both sides....sometimes I read some of the the stuff and mind goes..."BLAH! I don't want to read this anymore!" (More times than not, for me at least...it's because I felt like the OW in my own goddamn marriage though, just picking up the scraps that were thrown my way....and I think that's whats hurt the most.)

you have to learn how to not cheat? that is an entirely foreign concept to me. You just think of how much you'd hurt the other person and that should be enough to stop you. You think I haven't had the urge to find someone else? I've been in an abusive marriage for six years and after that many years I've certainly felt the need to feel loved again. But I didn't go sleep with other men or women.

You know, I do work really hard to see everyone's side, but something that bugs me about most of the OM/OW is their belief that they are victims of the Cheater.

Now, I in no way, shape, or form believe that the OM/OW have been well-treated by the Cheaters. And I can understand why the OM/OW are angry at the Cheaters, but there is something that I really with the OM/OW would really think about and be honest about it!

Do they think it is OK to cheat on their spouse, to break their wedding vows? Do they intend to cheat if they get married, pre-supposing they are single? Is is OK with them if their partner cheats on them? And if it is not OK, why was it OK for you to help someone else to cheat?

You had/made a choice. We did not!

That is why you are in no way victims!

Emerald, I agree completely.

A whole lot of people seem to think that just because someone is hurt, then they are a victim. I disagree with those people.

Being hurt alone doesn't make someone a victim in my mind. It's being hurt BY NO FAULT OF YOUR OWN that makes you a victim. Big differece.

You take a walk in the park and someone holds a gun to your head and rapes you- you are a victim. You take a walk in the park and see someone, bend over and spread your legs- you're not a victim. At best, you are an idiot who made a poor choice.

The most painful thing about my wifes affair(s) was the lying/sneaking. Often, the OM/OW has been lied to as well.

hlks --
I really don't think you understand the purpose of the CA or the OOF site. Alcohalics Anonymus (for instance) is not a place for bragging about great parties.

Pain is pain whether self-inflicted or inflicted by another.

Respectfully -- Yorick.

I recived a message from hlks recently,and I replied to her. Im hoping she might go back and look at the same thread as it devloped, and as members discussed the topic. I hope you can see some of if not the majority of us are remorsful for our actions, and that we are trying to work together with peolple in all different stage of this mess we ceated. You dont see our side of it and I understand. I cant fully appeciate your side. How could I? We dont have the same life experiencees. You went thru something totally different than me. Again I do hope you go back and look, there are some good people that have some good ideas for those of us who want to do the right thing. Sometimes I gotta hollar and say some things that are biasd just as you have done.

hlks:

You say you've felt the need to be loved, and in spite of that, you didn't sleep with other men or women, but the fact is, you did, didn't you? You had a third party to your relationship, consensual or not. Let's not split hairs.

I won't pretend to understand where you're coming from, because that's not my lifestyle. But I'm very much a "live and let live" kind of guy. I don't deny that your pain in real. I might not be able to understand it and I may have trouble empathizing, but it's real to you, and for that reason, I respect the hurt you feel as a fellow human being who was hurt in my relationship.

And that's all I'm saying you should do in this instance. Respect the fact that these are individuals who have feelings. Rightly or wrongly, some of them feel hurt. You don't have to pretend to understand. Just don't condemn them for feeling that way.

There are things in your reply #22 that I think are probably best directed to your partner, not toward anyone in the CA or OotF forums.

I read back through your thread. Im confused. First you said " A person's core self doent change" you also said "A persons base personality is set at age three" Then later you say "cheating is learned". Hmm wich is it? Or are you sayin because base personality cant be changed after three years of age, and cheating is learned, that we learn to cheat before the age of three? Intresting concept.

Thanks, Kristi. I am truly not interested in being "right." Being fair, being logical, being honest about all the ins and outs of any situation, including my own actions are what is important to me.

You are also a logical thinker. Those of us who have been betrayed DID NOT HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE A CHOICE! THE CHOICE WAS MAE FOR US BY OUR PARTNERS AND THOSE THEY CHEATED WITH!

Now, that being said do I believe that I have done nothing wrong ever? Why that is patently absurd.

OK, public confession of the worst thing I ever did. I had a job where I was helping Womyn who had no health insurance and couldn't afford to pay for these services themselves get free mammograms and/or pap smears. I got bored with what I was doing and just kind of did the minimal. I live with the knowledge that perhaps because of my negligence someone may have lost their life because their cancer went undetected. I pray that nothing happened to anyone else due to my abuse of trust. I hope that I am the only one suffering because of this.

Now does that sound like I believe myself to be above reproach!

But about my H's affair I am and so are all of us who have been cheated on!

I also became violent due to his affair and posted about it in my journal entries. Read my entries for June 16, 17 and 18. Again, I am perfectly willing to admit to the wrong things I do. And because I am willing to do that, on those rare occasions when I am absolutely 100% right, I refuse to back down even an inch!