phoenix, sometimes it's not brain chemistry, addiction or fog. Some people are just assholes.

Fiber - sorry when I speak/write - I speak in "general" terms - I am not attacking anyone here - because thats basically not nice.

If you got the impression - that was not how I operate.

The "losers" are the folks that do this kind of thing (abuse, cheat, hurt others on purpose) I don't know you personally so I wouldnt think you fall into that category.

Your here sharing your experience which is helpful for everyone.

Fiber-- There is another choice you could have made that I didn't see you mention: you could have split up with your husband instead of cheating on him.

Why didn't (don't) you leave?

savage, I didn't leave for the same reasons many abused women do not. He had drained all my strength, told me that our problems were all in my head, made me doubt my own perceptions. When I did stand up he'd make it clear that if he had to leave he'd make us all leave and sell to pay out his share of the house. If he would be punished fpr being abusive so would the rest of us. He would turn it around and make himself the victim, saying I was abusing him, harming his ego by telling him what he was doing that hurt me. He would get the kids on his side, crying to me not to make Daddy go. He had my family on his side insisting that he's a good guy....but they never saw what I saw. He was careful with his audience and his image, all part of the crazy making.


I have stated, maybe not in this thread, that I should have left. Ibwish I'd had the strength. Instead I was incredibly weak but that weakness was not of my own making. I was a very strong woman when we married. It took years of covert abuse to tear me down.

Onyx, your blanket statement is here in black and white, clear as day. You make such a statement about 'they' as if we are not in the room. I am here as proof that you can't accurately paint every person who has made a particular choice with the same 'personality brush'.

It's not always as cut and dried as some might need it to be in order to support their perspective.

You are projecting the "loser" spotlight on to yourself. Onyx never directed it to you.

You know Fiber...they have forum for people like you. It is called Cheaters Anonymous. Here's the link:
http://www.dailystrength.org/groups/cheatersanonymous

And to address your marriage situation, Fiber, it just doesnt sound like theres any hope (outside of a miracle). Know this: Not all marriages can be saved or should be saved.

Whatever you end up doing, do it HONOR, DIGNITY & INTEGRITY.

Good Luck!

I understand that onyx was speaking of cheaters in general and not specifically me. He did, however, describe the group of people who "get caught up in affairs", a group in which I am included, as losers.

I expect that if I made a negative comment about BS in general, many here would take it personally. No projection involved.

fiber-Why do you want to be with your H now?

Built, fiber has been a productive addition to the infidelity board. She is fully aware and utilizes the ca board.

I for one and appreciative of her input.

Hey blind,

I've got a lot of 'better the devil you know than the devil you don't' kind of thinking going on lately. I know I want to have a truly intimate relationship, I know I am capable of participating in that. I'm not confident that seeking a new partner would put me anywhere closer to achieving intimacy. In fact, I see that as returning to square one, having to open a whole new account and make deposits toward achieving trust. With my husband I've already invested so much that it's hard to write it off and just walk away.

And what if I do and the next person is ends up being another emotional 'money pit'? Then what? I really don't have it in me to start all over again at almost 50. With menopause and the accompanying decline in interest in sex, if I give another 15 years to the next person I will end up with....a retirement companion? That may be where H and I settle after all is said and done. Sleeping in separate rooms and sharing vacations.

I don't trust my own judgement in choosing a partner who is going to be any more capable of healthy intimacy--my past choices haven't turned out to be great.

So in part I stay because I'm scared. It's my own metaphor at play, clinging to a rock in the middle of a raging river, dying, but afraid to let go. I know I'm chicken shit about the whole mess. I keep hoping that he will throw me a rope I can hang onto before I give up and surrender to the river.

Mostly I feel like if I can't find a solution with my H then I will just be alone. And, if that's the case, then I have nothing to lose by letting this play out and see if Built's miracle happens. As long as I don't hold on so long that I die on a rock in a river.

wow fiber... i get that, I feel that.....and sometimes it is more than that, I feel love, and then the betrayal and the sadness rush in...and the why stay, It seems that I am rewarding him for his "choice" to come back to me...as apposed to HER, or any other her in the future....I hate this road I am on....I just wanted to be loved and cherished, to be that special one for my H, now I am just one of the women who got to have sex with the "great and powerful M*****l" and like so many before me and now those after me....we are left with little to hold onto because we don't know what was truth and what was the "game"

I'm sorry, shegave. On that rock is a lousy place to be. You and I arrived by different routes, but the rock is the same and it's hard to see the good options.

There is much to be said for positive reinforcement, rewarding correct behavior. I can hear that it really rubs you the wrong way though, to have to play that kind of game. It can feel a lot like parenting and when dealing with an adult that can be infuriating.

I think that we all want to be loved and cherished. That is Universal, isn't it? I hear you being overwhelmed by the negatives, but I wonder if your H does anything at all that makes you feel loved? We were just talking about the 5 Languages of Love on another thread. Maybe the ways he's trying to show you love are not the ways in which you need to receive it right now? People have a tendency to give what they need to receive without recognizing that their partner may need that love expressed in a different form in order for it to be received. It's like trying to communicate love through walkie talkies tuned to different frequencies--the messages go out but are never received.

There's a quiz here
If you're familiar with the 5 languages of love and you feel loved by 'acts of service' or 'words of affirmation', then what onyx laid out might feel very loving for you. And it might have felt that way for you in the past but it doesn't anymore. Our languages are not carved in stone, they flex with our needs over time. A year ago I needed acts of service more than anything. Now, after having had my H unemployed and at home for almost a year, I couldn't care less if he never did the dishes again. What I need now is touch and quality time. I want him be held, and for him to hold my hands and look me in the eye when I talk, to know that he's really listening and that I am more important than the f*&#ing dishes! Apparently, he and I need a little language review.

It might be that your husband is doing everything he believes is right and it seems like it's never enough. And if he's not receiving love in the way that is meaningful for him, he will feel even less like he's on track with you. It can start to seem hopeless to both of you. Before you give up, make sure you're each 'speaking' in a way that the other can 'hear'. Taking my own advice as soon as I get home :)

If you've never taken the quiz or it's been a long time, here's a link: http://www.5lovelanguages.com/profile/ to help identify your language. It may not restore trust but could at least help with identifying your needs. A good first step in getting them met,

Oops! That paste was supposed to be just a link, not my entire response to the other thread.

Maybe I should get some sleep :/

I'm really thinking about that book. I need to get it on cd for H. We just had a bottomless discussion/.rant tonight.

That book is in our home, we have read it several times, BEFORE the affair, that is part of what makes the affair and betrayal so intense, WE HAD DONE THE WORK,WE HAD INVESTED AND PUT PROTECTION IN PLACE, we counciled other couples about the pit falls of greener grass, love languages, all of it and he CHOSE TO IGNORE IT ALLLLLL TO FUCK HER and continue the affair until he got caught...and then had the nerve to tell me he was "emotionally attatched to HER"..........and now he wants me to "believe" what he is saying now,he says he knew what he was doing was WRONG but it felt so good....and now he "will do better", sure he will,, until the next time....and for now every song, every sign, even the weather channel....throws what he did, what he is really capable of doing is thrown in my face and IT HURTS BEYOND REPROACH......so until the "last goodbye..." this is where I am....he is over "her" and the affair that gave him so much pleasure, and I am destroyed, he wants it to just go away and it will never go away for me, never....he replaced me with her and now changed HIS mind but that does not restore me to the place I should never have been removed from, it does not restore my peace and security....it restores nothing and in fact makes it even more painful that he destroyed me for NOTHING but a fuck, a girlfriend to fuck in our marriage....