I respect the fact, Frank, that you can discipline your son effectively without spanking. I can probably count on one hand the times I spanked my kids because, as I said before, they feared the mention of a spanking, which incidently was with a wooden spoon and not my hand. And this was when they were so young I couldn't reason with them.

Frank...I am not talking about spanking for every little thing. That is too much. It is a tool amoung many that should be used when the situation dictates it.

Some kids don't care about going to jail or repeating a class. They are stubborne and they need other deterants.

I see merits in both points of views and I realize that no one will change their mind in this discussion, but it is interesting to see the different points of views. Just from my experiences growing up and my experiences now of deailing with the kids that I deal with all of the time some of them could just use a good ol' spanking.

Well as a mom of seven I have spanked some of my children and then learned it was more about my frustration and wanting to control than actually teaching them something. I was spanked as a child so thought that was what you did. But I learned it was not the kind of parent I wanted to be. I do have one son that I literally could have beaten. He probably got most of the spanks. But what I learned was that talking with my child seemed to have the same affect if they really felt bad about it. I have seen people abuse the whole time out thing too. It has to correspond with the childs age and understanding. Being a parent is the hardest job there is, you are raising a person to be a responsible, empathetic adult. I made my share of mistakes, but I did learn from them. I have learned to say I am sorry when I as an adult make a mistake. I have held my children and cried with them after I spanked them. I had a good friend tell me when my four oldest were all little, he said you make have some techniques that I don't agree with, but one thing your children know is that you love them. I have had that reaffirmed time and time again by my grown children. Each child responds differently to life. But they each respond the same to knowing that you love them. Sorry so long

Two quick personal anecdotes to illustrate what I'm talking about (although these aren't perfect examples):

When I was in high school, my sister and I started going out the night clubs and drinking beer. I was a freshman or sophomore or something, and she was a year older. When my parents found out, my dad beat the holy hell out of my sister. He didn't draw blood or leave any bruises, but he still kicked her ass. He would have done the same to me, but I was already bigger than him at that point. He punched me, but I didn't feel anything and I just stared him down.

A few years later, I was on my way to college. My parents dropped me off at my sister's dorm room one night (we made a pit stop at her school) and left for their hotel. I was with a buddy, and we started smoking cigars, drinking beer, and reading comic books. My parents forgot something and walked back in the room just as I was smoking up and taking a swig from my beer.

I had never seen my dad so sullen in my entire life. He wouldn't even look at me. He wouldn't talk to me. He looked down at the ground and I thought he was going to cry. I'll never forget that moment as long as I live. I apologized over and over and asked if he was okay. He still wouldn't look at me, but he mumbled, "I'm just really disappointed in you." And he left.

That latter episode had a much greater impact on me than his beating ever did. It's incomparable.

You know, my kid's 8 right now and the greatest threat to him is saying Santa Claus isn't going to be bringing him any presents this year if he keeps up his behavior. :P

I wasn't spanked as a child by my primary parent (my Mom) and I don't think I could bring myself to do it to my own children (if I ever have any). My mom was very good at communicating and if my sister or I did anything wrong, it turned into a discussion (age appropriate, of course). When my mom would tell me that whatever it was that I did made her sad, disappointed, hurt, etc. - that was a much more effective tool to make me consider my actions and how they affected me and others. Of course there were consequences as well - whether it was having to spend time in my room or having things of value taken from me. I think THAT kind of lesson makes a more lasting impression. JMHO

Heave, in response to your post #30, I think those kids you describe have many more serious problems than being spanked or not. My best guess would be that the kids you're describing never had much discipline or structure in any way at all. They never learned consequences or right from wrong. There are larger issues at play there.

I'm so sorry about what happened to your sister, Frank, but that was definitely a beating and not what I've been talking about. And thankfully you were old enough when your dad said he was disappointed to understand what he meant.

I understand, Veeach. I guess I'm just saying that if you raise them to value your opinion of them, a stinging sense of disappointment by the parent will always have more impact on a child than anything else ever could.

Frank, you maybe right. There is no quick fix to dicipline problems. I know from the justice side of things it is impossible to teach consequences when the justice system drags everything out.

Sure, once you guys get involved, Heave, it's almost impossible to teach kids discipline. The justice system is set up to deter and punish adults, it's not set up to teach children proper behavior. I'm sure it's frustrating for you to have to pick up the pieces behind shitty parents all the time.

I agree with you on that, Frank, but again, they need to be old enough to understand. My teenage son said JC once out of frustration with his sister and I got tears in my eyes and told him how much that hurt me. He's never said it since.

Oh, you should have seen my dad's face when I said "fuck" at dinner table.

Let's see, for big boys we skip the spoon and use soap instead :)

I know that I have helped in the schools since all my children have been in school. I have seen such a difference from when my oldest who is 30 was in school and to when my youngest who is 11 is in school. Divorce is so much more prevelant. There are so many more one parent homes. The way children react to adults has definetly changed. We are living in a world where the responsiblity for raising a child is being put on society.