I'm not sure if it would be actually triggering for anyone there, but I could see the possibility of it. You're right that there is a difference between being uncomfortable and being triggered. When I lost a baby during the 2nd tremester, it was painful and upsetting to see babies; I understood those desperate wacky women who kidnap newborns out of hospitals when a woman from church had to practically pry her baby out of my arms. But when my aunt, years before, lost her baby at birth, she was genuinely triggered at the sight of babies for at least a year. Several times she collapsed on the street, screaming in anguish.

Not to be callous, but I think we (as in all survivors everywhere) need to be cautious that we don't go overboard in saying this, that, and every other painful thing is triggering. It belittles what people with PTSD really go through when they are triggered.

OK, climbing off my soapbox now...sorry...

As for the age thing...I'm concerned that SHE feel comfortable with all us old fogeys. Truthfully, though, the age differences between a number of us has not been the issue I'd feared it would be for me. Age just doesn't seem to divide our tribe the way it does the rest of the world.

My life would have turned out hugely dramatically different if I'd met some wonderful incest survivors when I was 15...people who would have known my deep dark secret and loved me anyway...people who would have given me hope...

Matt, one of the things you are so good at is describing the retreat in vivid detail and answering questions even before they are asked. If these two women feel comfortable coming to our retreat, if they think it would be healing, I think I can trust them enough -- and I certainly know I can trust you enough -- to make the right decision.

It's NOT appropriate to bring children to a retreat of this type. It has nothing to do with who might be triggered by it or that we all want to be nice and welcoming to this person. I'm having a hard time understanding why this is even being discussed. Children do not belong at Rape Retreats.

Well that's what is so nice about the retreat Matt and Tonya run. There is nothing not discussed and nothing off the table. I know of a few 'rape retreats' where you 'get what you get and you don't throw a fit'. Meaning, they offer what they offer and don't stray from an assigned protocol.

If the Stillwater retreat was anything like that it wouldn't be the experience it has been. Assigning a general what's right and what's wrong for a retreat of this type is as inappropriate as saying...this retreat is only for rape survivors and incest/child abuse survivors or domestic abuse survivors need not apply. Exclusion has never been a part of this retreat before and to start now, because a fello survivor's healing needs require a bit of balancing from us......well that simply had never been what this group was ever about.

If we truly want to honor what we have all felt we as a group is, a tribe. excluding this young woman is not something I want to be a part of. Child or no child, excluding anyone because their healing needs are different than what I am comfortable is not ok.

There have been several different healing tools that had to be utilized at the various retreats, several of which I was not comfortable being around. That in no way overshadowed the need for those tools. If the ones working the retreat are capable (and they are) and they are willing (which they seem to be) , I have faith that they will work this young woman's needs in to the retreat with the least amount of disruption to the rest of us.

It's being discussed because I respect the group and think that any significant decision ought to made collectively, rather than simply imposed by myself. I'm surprised to observe that the majority view so far is for the inclusion option, because I actually expected more resistance. There's one detail that I've tried to make clear that seems to be getting lost, which is that the child would be cared for on the premises, but not part of our group activities.

The gathering isn't something I do for my profession or income, it's purely something I do as a friend to all of you. It's because I believe in it (and you), not because I was hired to do it, that Tonya and I began it. Thus, the retreat is not anyone's business property or agency activity, it "belongs" to the group by design. That's why I hope it's self-evident that every detail of it, from the dates to the food to the room arrangements to the schedule to the tough calls on unique issues are ALL settled by consensus.

Sandra, it's very close minded of you to decide who belongs there and who doesn't. It very well might be healing for a lot of women to find the joy of a child's presence there. I for one enjoy that River and Cedar are there. I love that they are educated and informed on real life situations and it's impact and how humanity isn't a secret, survivor issue. I am happy to share this with the boys. Life doesn't stop for us to heal. If you wait for that, you'll never heal. You have to incorporate life, and that's what this little boy represents. I'm sorry you feel so strongly about it, but I'm asking you to possibly take a gentler tone because it's rather abrasive.

The great thing about the retreat is that you are not forced or pressured into partaking in anything you are not comfortable with. I thank you Matt for discussing this with us because it will obviously affect our retreat experience in one way or another. But something to take into consideration is how you respond to a situation, if you are not comfortable around the child then don't get close to the child. We are all granted the ability at the retreat to practice good self care and just like if you were uncomfortable with doing the sweat or participating in a plate smashing activity, you have the ability to step away and not get involved. Providing this girl with a therapeutic environment and a sense of community at such a young age would be awesome.

As for the age difference, I was only 18 when I came to the first retreat and I did not feel weird or awkward what so ever. It was amazing being able to see other women that have gone through what I have gone through and have functional lives with kids and jobs and social lives. It gave me so much hope and inspiration that surviving was possible.

I am not as much concerned about the girl's child being there as I am about the girl's mother... I worry that my inner teenager (who has A LOT of mother issues) might react badly.
My knee-jerk reaction to this is an obvious sign that I've still got a lot of work to do in that area. (sigh... )

It's not appropriate for children to hear the discussions of sodomy, rape, violent abuse that we have been through. It has nothing to do with excluding people. Bringing a child to a retreat like this is like taking a child to an R-rated movie.

Its NOT Sandra!!! My experiences are not an R rated movie, and I dont like the negative comparison! No one in any open forum gives detailed accounts. This is MY experience, and MY choice in how I relate to the other attendants. Its about companionship and friends, not about rehashing traumas! There are other retreats for that.

Why is the fact that the kid will be no where around us really being ignored? This is NOT the first time kids have been there!

The child will be 8 months old in May. He would not have any clue what we're discussing.
And again, the child would be cared for by his grandmother, apart from us. The question isn't, "should we let a baby come to our activities with us," the question is "can we let a grandmother care for a child elsewhere at the campgrounds while the daughter participates with us." I'd be the last one to expose young ears to the kinds of things we talk about with ease. Even my own sons only have an age-appropriate understanding of what we do.

At none of the retreats has anyone ever had public discussion about sodomy, rape, violent abuse . From the very first retreat the point of retreat itself has been the coming together of survivors in a safe environment, not a trauma resolution retreat. IF specific details of abuse have been discussed it has never been in the large group setting but rather in private or in small groups.

Angela Shelton wrote a letter that was distributed at the last retreat, about survivor hood and living our lives in spite of our respective trauma, not because of them. She talks about viewing abuse as a sword that once removed from our bodies can be used BY us, to benefit ourselves and one another.

This woman/girl is a fellow abuse survivor that is in the process of removing her sword and her child is not the sword, the abuse is. She's beginning to learn 'sword play' like the rest of us and it sounds as if this can be an opportunity for us to embrace her wholly and welcome her into our tribe or ostracize her because her healing needs include this child.

Else, I totally understand where you are coming from, and given the fact that I am a mother of a two teenagers this girls age I hope that doesn't affect our interaction. I know that I have a hard time losing the 'mom' in me when I come to the retreat and I tend to 'mother' as I do at home. Thankfully everyone that has been on the receiving end of my 'mothering' have been gracious about it and we've been able to joke about it.

I too had a knee-jerk reaction to this post ...a young woman might be coming with her child conceived during her rape...I too had a pregnancy resulting from my rape...my knee-jerk initial reaction was to think 'Oh no!". After some thought, I realized, I"m entitled to my reaction and my feelings..they are mine. I can decide to remain paralyzed by how seeing this child and his mother together will make me feel or I can trust that I have the self care tools to manage those feelings and/or rely on the you all, Matt, Tonya, or Jennifer for the support I need to so that this girl can have the same opportunity I had/have at the retreat and that was to come and feel loved, supported and cared for....in spite of what I needed to bring to the retreat.

Specifically, I need fun and humor at the retreat. Others may not need fun and humor (or even felt comfortable with it) but never have I felt like I had to leave my needs at the door, everyone embraced me and allowed me into the fold, as I fully intend to do with this mother and child. We've all been on the receiving end of the support and sense of family the retreat offers and this woman deserves the best that we can offer.

Sorry Scubs I know how you don't like people disagreeing with you. I'm not attending the retreat anyway so my opinion (and it is an opinion) doesn't weigh anything. I just felt strongly about it so I felt a need to speak up for the protection of the child. I'm opting out of this discussion. Sorry if I got you ruffled.

Did any of us discuss details of our sexual trauma around River and Cedar? I'd like to think we are wiser than that. I didn't find their presence stifling because, frankly, I find it inappropriate to discuss sodomy, incest, etc. at mealtimes. But that's just me.

Now if there was a passel of kidlets running wild over the retreat center and I had no idea where they would pop up next, that would be different, just like I'd be very uncomfortable if River and Cedar were a constant presence. I'm very sensitive to what kids are exposed to. In fact, I went way overboard in protecting and sheltering my own kids, to their detriment. It's been good for me to watch Matt and Tonya model what I now believe is a much more healthy approach, one that is sensitive and protective, yet not shrouded in shame, fear, and secrecy.

I'm also protective and mom-like enough that I worried we might corrupt sweet little Megan. Then I realized she has a lot of sense on her shoulders...way more than I do when I'm stuck at age 13.

If I hadn't been to the retreat before, I'd agree that children don't belong there. But my own experiences there gave me an entirely different perspective.

Based on what happened to the teenage mother, and the fact that the child is a product of a rape, I think it would be more healing for her to have Grandma bring the child. The Grandma and child do not need to be on-site the whole time, plus as long as there are activities for the child, created by the mom and Grandma, there shouldn't be a huge problem. The only problem I forsee is the affect on other retreat members as far as triggering and anxiety goes. With 2 dates available for 2012, maybe an arrangement could be made to have a retreat which would be comfortable with the child being there, and the other one for those who aren't comfortable. I realize that it may not be possible, but it's an idea that would allow the mom and child to come.

I think if I had a child born from a rape I would have some negative feelings toward that child, and may not be able to bond as well as I have with my children that I had with my husband. The retreat might be the key to allowing the mother to not only heal, or begin to heal, but to begin a more meaningful relationship with the child. I also think if I were in that position, I would want to spend time with the child away from the group, while reflecting on what was talked about, but that's just how I am. I don't know what this mom will do. I suggest a little more correspondence with her, Matt, and get more information from her and her mom about how she and the child are bonding, what issues she's having as far as trying to heal from the rape, and what she is looking to get from the retreat. I think those things will make a big difference, along with how we would introduce the subject of having a child as a product of rape, and what the issues are. We need to have people who are willing and able to honestly talk with her in the group, and it would be kind of nice if there was another mother with a child born of rape at the retreat. That kind of experience would be pretty important to have at the retreat she attends.

I don't know if this makes sense to anyone, it's just my $0.02 on the issue. Also, I won't be attending the first retreat this year, though I may get lucky enough to be able to attend the second. However, this reply is written in the context of attending.

There are two sides, and I hope there is a way that will work for both.