When I first read this, and realized her rape resulted in a child, my heart broke for her. Talk about having to grow up fast... She's a teenager, and obviously has the support of her mom to help her with her son. As long as the little one doesn't interfere with our activities, I think it's vital that this young lady joins us. I'd also like to meet her little guy, show him some love, and let her feel the acceptance that honestly guys, can only come from this retreat. I don't have it in my heart to vote no! Especially since this is a special circumstance case. It's not like it's a single mom who doesn't have daycare. We'd have tons of kids running around if that was the case, but this child is very much weaved into the quilt of survivorhood.

Judy brought up a good point. When River and Cedars babysitter brought her little girl, no one hardly noticed. This wouldn't be any different, I don't think.

I was concerned that she may be too young for this, but she seems to have done a wonderful job thus far keeping herself together. Again, she was lurched into making some pretty adult decisions awfully early.

I look forward to the retreat to get away from my mom responsibilities. They can be so overwhelming!!! But I really think that as minor as an impact this kiddo would have on our overall agenda, it would be HUGE to show this girl that we take her as a person, a survivor, and a mother. All in one, at the same time. I've never felt the mom responsibility at the grounds even with 3 kids there at one time in the past. Obviously, some good planning has already happened before. I think we should trust it again.

Btw, COMPLETELY agree that this little guy and grandmom need to join us for meals. Debbie, Rachele, and Jennifer did such an amazing job last year feeding us all, how can we let them miss that??? They need to be at our communal table and share with us, cause that's what family does.

The question that hasn't been addressed so far is the fact that this young woman is a minor. If her mother is taking care of the grandson, then one assumes the mother will not be at all activities. So essentially this minor will be alone in a community of adult women.

My recollection from both my own teen years and the youth work I did in my late teens and early 20's is that there are some major emotional growth points between 16 and 18/19. I know rape in some ways forces kids and teens to grow up fast, as do teen mothers. I also tend to think that teens are capable of a lot more maturity that society allows them to express. That being said, my sense from both teens that have had to grow up fast and from the rape survivors group I participated in right after the rape was that teens are still teens and not adult in significant emotional ways.

With adults, one can say "its not therapy" and rightly distance oneself from liability if something goes wrong. With teens, I'm not sure one can so easily. Adults chose to take their risks. With minors, there is an implicit responsibility of care and supervision, for anyone that works with them in an organizing role. Regardless of insurance, I think it needs to be considered whether this is something that you (Matt) and the group as a whole want to take on.

There are plenty of instances where minors are left into the care of other adults; school, church, camp, etc. I'm sure the insurance doesn't have a clause that states the parent has to be by the minors side at all times. They will always be on the property with them, so that would be okay. I'm also sure Matt has taken that into consideration in his talks with the family. I'm just assuming that if his correspondence with them had sent up any red flags, he would have nixed it right away. Yes, teenagers can only grow up so much, but you are right in that they can handle so much more than what is allotted to them. And to be honest, this girl may be in a way more emotionally sound place than any of us are at any given time, lol.

I was 14, almost 15 when I was raped. I didn't tell a soul. Not ONE person until I got engaged. And then one person knew. Until then I went to a counselor and told him for one session and never went back. Then 2 knew. Until I met you guys. Then a bunch knew ;) This age is SO IMPORTANT to receive open arms. The benefits far out weigh the risks I think. Bless her heart for having been through this. I don't think anyone expects for us to take her on as a project either. If you feel drawn to her, offer support. If not, that's okay. That's the beauty of us all. We all have someone we click with :)

I have mixed thoughts and feelings. Mostly I agree with what Butterfly, Matt and Judy have said. I think my concerns are:

1. The mother/grandmother. I trust the impression Matt has of her, but I also hope she won't be overly protective of her daughter. The last thing I'd want is for all of us to be hanging out late at night and for her to go into mom mode and ask her daughter, "Don't you think you should be going to bed?" I don't want her presence to be inhibiting in any way.

2. The survivor. Will she feel torn between experiencing the retreat fully and attending to her child? Yes, the grandmother will be there, but the whole situation might make it difficult for the survivor to connect with us and participate in a way that would be most healing to her.

3. The child. Youngsters can be unpredictable. What if this one doesn't take well to different surroundings and people and spends a great deal of time crying and clamoring to be comforted by her mother?

4. The other survivors. I'm glad Judy was as open as she was in her post. But some survivors who have had abortions carry that as a shamefully painful secret. Depending on where they are in their healing, the presence of a child conceived by rape could be horribly triggering.

Having said all the negative stuff, I have to say that I think -- on the positive side -- that having this particular survivor and her child part of our retreat has the potential of being powerfully healing for all of us. The privilege of loving on and accepting this child, rather than viewing him/her as carrying some awful stigma...that won't just be healing for the mother of the child. Whenever we welcome one more person into our tribe, when we accept them and their unique story, I believe we all grow and benefit.

The last thing is hard for me to articulate. Plus, I'm in a public place and I don't want to start bawling. But I've written here, and talked at the retreats, about how I believe in a redemptive God...yet I struggle with how He can bring anything redemptive out of something so evil as rape. I think of what Joseph in the Old Testament said to the brothers who had sold him into slavery: "What you meant for evil, God used for good." I am constantly searching for glimpses of redemption.

I can think of few things more redemptive, few things more poignantly beautiful and good coming out of unspeakable evil, than an innocent child born out of rape. When that child is loved and cherished without shame...that is one of the most powerful pictures of redemption and healing that I can imagine.

*like*

If she does come and there are survivors who cannot be around young children...I'm concerned she may read that as a rejection of the child because of the circumstance in which he was born. I am not always comfortable with people full stop and I would be concerned of my distance providing a damage that I wasn't concerned about this year.

With the boys, they are aware that some women may keep a distance. There is no worry of traumatising or offending Matt and Tonya... I'm just really voicing some thoughts. If this girl is in a place in her healing to see that; that it isn't about her life being shameful or wrong but just where another survivor may be, that day or at all, then I can see her getting so much from the experience.

I don't mean to poopy the idea at all. I think there are a lot of components to this that rely on where she is as much as where the rest if us are.

Steht, do you think it would be 'triggering' in the very sense of the word or would it be uncomfortable. It certainly won't be comfortable for me, but not having her there won't make me more comfortable about this. Eventually there are times we have to confront uncomfortable similarities in our trauma, this could be a healing experience for more than just her.

So far, the whole issue of any triggering transference has only been hypothetical. I haven't received any input at all that this is an actual issue.

On a personal note, I am so immensely proud of the unanimous compassion by this entire group. This is someone we don't even know, and yet the group's entire shared agenda has been, "what would be the best way for us to support her?" Even though there may be diverse answers to that question, there's not even the slightest bit of selfishness or exclusivity anywhere, and I'm honored by that. This entire group seems to be characterized by its willingness to consider other peoples' feelings. Bravo.

I had not realized her age until I spoke to Matt. Here is the thing. My son is 15 1/2 years old. He is not too different than this girl.

I took the mom perspective. I would do anything to help him if I had something that he needed to work through.

The fact of the matter is that he is still just a kid as she is. Although, I imagine that she has grown up so much more.

As a mom, I would not put my child in a retreat where I did not know the people. It is the right thing to do and the responsible thing to do.

I had really only thought about this as a survivor. Maybe, there is a good balance that will meet everyone's needs. As a mom, you want to do anything that you can to help your kids.

I think that she can work through this young. What a blessing.

I think her age might be more of a trigger for me than anything else but if I manage to pull the money together to attend I have 5 months to work on that trigger..5 months is a long time and i see it as being a non issue by then. Besides, I would never ask a survivor not to attend on my behalf. The thing is, if it were an issue for me there's 30 odd women and Matt I could use as a support platform. Having been to a retreat I know the quality and freedom of such support so I might have reservations, just like I had reservations about attending at all this year but I know it's a safe place.

It rare that people look after their children 100%. I doubt this person would be looking after the kid all the time because she would want to socialize too. Kids need attention. I didn't find out about River and Cedar until after I signed up for the retreat. Had I known beforehand I wouldn't have attended. I hate being a babysitter and no matter how much someone says they are going to look after their kids, they don't.

Should say.....River and Cedar were very unobtrusive, thanks.

I mentioned it Matt. I mentioned the issue of being triggered, but, I would rather come to a different retreat, or skip one than to be a vote of negativity.

It is a personal issue of mine and up to me to deal with. I would never want to stand in the way of another persons accessibility to such an experience. Just because I asked for those dates at work does not mean I cannot adjust them to a different time. Don't consider my issues. I can make adjustments as needed. I really mean that.

I am a little late to the conversation but I vote yes to have the kid and grandmother there.

I think with rape being such a traumatic and isolating experience in itself, and then adding on the pressure and stress of becoming a mother as a teenager this girl needs to be accepted as a whole, and with her child being a product of the rape he is essential to that acceptance. The first retreat I went to River, Cedar, and the baby sitters kid was there and it was no problem at all. She took care of them all very well.

I love having River and Cedar at the retreat, they bring so much life and joy to the atmosphere. Especially Cedar his little laugh is contagious! I think that this girl being able to have her child in this caring and healing atmosphere can be very therapeutic for her and the child. Matt you are good at setting out boundaries and the mother seems to really want to give her daughter the best possible experience. As long as the grandmother understands that we need our time for healing, and joking, and camaraderie I don't see any problem with this.