The boys are always well behaved so, for me, if they are comfortable bringing the child i guess there is no real issue.

Though, personally, I think she would benefit more from coming alone and seeing we accept her for her first. A lot of the experience of the retreat actually happens outside of "activities"

we should probably just ask writer since children flock to her ;)

Does this open the retreat to all women who have children they want to bring, or just this one child? I don't want to sound intolerant at all, but for me, I have a hard time relaxing when children are around. So many parenting styles and what-not. Children can also be quite triggering for me. But that is a personal issue, not likely shared by many, if any.

I quit using a particular hair-stylist because it was like having a "cut and color" in a Daycare.

Sorry. I sound like a cruel old be-yotch. :(

PS. I loved spending time with River and Cedar. I just should have kept the above to myself. Sorry. So, so sorry.

I think I might find it hard too to have a toddler around. I would understand if it was a little baby who needed nursing, but I think I would find it less relaxing with a toddler. I love children, they are fantastic, I work with them and have my own, but I think I might find it tricky in the retreat context. But, I really don't want to spoil someone else's opportunity for attending if this is the only way they could come to the retreat.
As for River and cedar - they are fantastic, and I feel so privileged to have met them and know them, but they are very aware of the situation, even without necessarily understanding all the details. Their age and understanding means that having them around is very different ot how I imagine it would be with a two year old.
PS mockingbird, you are totally entitled to your opinion, it is not bad, it is totally valid and important.

I won't be attending the retreat so my opinion doesn't really count, but I go to these things looking to get away from kids. I'd rather not have to be watching what I say because kids are around. If you do it once, then everyone will be wanting to bring their kids. Keep it an adult only retreat.

I had a hard time writing this at first because I felt bad like Mockingbird. I do not think it is a place for the kids. Your kids understand the work that you do. I am troubled that the mom would be there. That would problematic for me because I would feel like she was watching me. It is just a place to be.

I feel that is a holy place because in this instance it is for survivors not moms, not significant others, husbands, etc. I know that it is not very open of me, but this exact element allows me to be me whereas in everyday, I cannot do that.

I can see that her mom is worried about her and may want to make sure that it is ok.

I don't think it's you being closed. Being off mom duties and responsibilities is a large part of what helps so many of the women finally focuss on themselves. Tonya participates but she isn't able to chill at all times and neither would this woman.

I respect what this woman is trying to do for her daughter and granddaughter, as I am certain we all do. That being said, I have no issues with the child attending, particularly with the grandmother looking over the grandchild. My concern would be that I may upset this child unwittingly and this would be the very last thing that I would wish to do in this respect.

Also....heard talk of two retreat dates. What are the proposed dates this go? I am making one retreat "come Hell or High water" this year, but also have two marathons to plan.....so time is of the essence. I know one marathon is May 20 and one is early Oct, but I can work around it on the slow down week beforehand, etc. Just don't want jet lag the morning of the race if I can avoid it. : )

First, no this would not be open to other children. This would be a special case because of how it relates to the issue of rape itself. Second, the only reason I brought it up is because the child would be cared for away from our activities, or else I would not have considered it at all either. There may be an insurance prohibition anyway, but I did at least want to ask you all first, to consider other feelings.

My vote is... yes.

Her child is very much a part of her healing work and if the grandmother is willing to be in charge of the little guy then it would be ok. I wonder if Grandmom and grandson could stay off-site (hotel) to avoid any insurance issue.

I think this is important enough for us to consider thoroughly (an possibly make some sacrifice) as this child is as significant to this woman's healing as anything or anyone that we would need to bring along for our own healing.

Considering the child wouldn't be a part of any of the activities, the grandmother is willing to watch over the child, and the campsite is very spacious , I think it could work for everyone.

(I worried about River being there that first retreat, but Matt's mom did a wonderful job taking care of him, the second retreat when both the boys were there also worked out very well...we all tend to be very spread out while we are there.)

After some long thought and a chat with Tonya and Matt, this is what I have concluded.

I think that it is key to this person's healing that her child be there and be accepted by us. I, also, think that since she is a minor that she needs to be there with her mom.

Most of the healing comes from the uhstructured nature of the retreat as well as the activities.

This girl has her entire life in front of her and clearly could be living a very full to be moved along the healing path.

I am fine with it with the following:

1) Matt explains to this mom and daughter exactly what happens at the retreat upfront. It is to her benefit to be with us in the down time. A lot of healing occurs then.

2) I will be honest that we have boundary issues. I recommend that the rest of the family join us for all meals. It is just right that we should all break bread together. I guess that jf Matt can set up some boundaries for all that can be flexible when we get there. Then, it is a win for all of us.

I must say she needs us to be accepting of the whole family.

Here are my thoughts (just so people will know I'm contemplating this as carefully as possible, and not being lackadaisical about everyone's feelings). I've noticed the comparisons to River's and Cedar's presence, and want to say how much I appreciate such positive comments about them! I'm glad it's been such a good experience for all, because frankly, if we couldn't accommodate them it would preclude the whole event anyway, because we'd have no other options for them for those 4 days. Yes, R&C do understand this work, and they do respect it.

Pro: the gathering is a place of healing, and each person who has felt that understands the importance of also imparting that healing to others. Every person here knows what it feels like when the trauma is that fresh, and how important it is to find a place of inclusion--a "tribe"--and that's what we offer. Also, I simply don't know of any group of women more capable, more likable, and more compassionate when it comes to being able to offer that inclusion. The "emotionally moral" part of me really hopes this can succeed. The conflicted feelings of a young woman whose trauma results in childbirth is a difficult issue that we haven't addressed often here, and I think the most important thing in the whole world for her to ever experience is total acceptance, respect, warmth, and a redefinition of her motherhood as something worthy and good and wholesome. I also see the wisdom in the grandmother's proposal, since accompanying a young woman is just a basic safety and parenting issue. It shows a commitment by the grandmother and mother both, and a keen understanding of the need to make sure all arrangements are done properly. So far, so good--I like the "feel" I get from my correspondence with the grandmother.

Con: I see the potential boundary issue. The most helpful part of the gathering is the unstructured time when women sit around and make friends with each other. It's a time of free speech, of easy comfortable humor, of late-night mischief, and of safe interaction. I wouldn't want that to be set aside. I'd welcome the "inclusion" option fully, as long as there's a boundary about the importance of this young woman still having those free times, and not being removed from them. Nobody has mentioned it, but perhaps there might be a trigger-issue in a young child being present, as well, either due to personal life-stage transference or to difficulties in issues around conception and childbirth. Then again, if there are such latent issues (unknown to me), this actually might be MORE beneficial to all involved. I'm also aware that some people just have different levels of comfort with young children, and want the gathering to be a time of adult-to-adult (and young adult, as in mature teens) camaraderie. Finally, this may all be moot if it turns out that insurance prohibits it. It was tough to get a policy that even allowed me to attend, being a male! If there's a policy issue, then that settles the matter anyway by fiat.

Thank you all for being so gracious in this discussion.

Agreed Butterfly. This child 'being accepted' by us would be a huge healing experience...not unlike the experience I had where everyone accepted me and helped me so much in my healing, after learning of my choice not to carry a pregnancy that resulted from a rape.

Boundaries are really important at the retreat and Matt, Tonya, and everyone else does a really good job of seeing to it that everyone is comfortable.

When River and Cedar's babysitter at the second retreat brought her toddler daughter, I didn't even know she was there except for the fact that the little girl was in some pictures.

As accepting of my choice that everyone was at the first retreat, our acceptance here matters a lot.

Oops didn't see Matt's post. Good points.