I agree with finalytime. For me, the actual word 'forgiveness' makes my skin crawl. There are just so many negative associations with that word. Matt pointed out that forgiveness is often associated with acceptance. Others have connected forgiveness to a 'letting go' or 'wiping the slate clean' process. These associations all make the act of forgiving difficult. Someone else made the distinction between minor infractions in healthy relationships and major infractions in the context of evil. 'Forgive and forget' may be appropriate when your friend has made an insensitive comment to you or your husband forgot to pick up some milk on the way home from work. However, the traditional understanding of forgiveness does not work when you have had to fight for your life in the most degrading of situations.

My biggest problem with forgiveness, as is commonly understood within my Christian faith, is that it is expected. This leaves me utterly perplexed. Any struggles with being able to forgive someone who has sinned against you is now your problem. You become the sinner. You become the faithless. You beome the ungrateful Christian who cannot forgive as God has forgiven you. The tables are turned and the focus is now on the stubborness of the victim to forgive. The acts of the offender are forgotten, or at the very least, no longer concerning. This is how the process of forgiveness has been presented to me and this is probably why I have such a problem with the word.

I love the idea of replacing the word 'forgive' with 'purge' and/or 'cleanse.' Actually, if I had it my way I would ban the word 'forgive' from any language spoken to victims of horrendous crimes becasue of the negative connotations that come with the word. To forgive is meaningless to me. However, to cleanse myself from the filthiness of my perpetrators in "a bold, empowered, and inspiring 'fuck you!' to trauma" kind of way brings tremendous meaning to my healing. This I can do. This I can accept. This moves me closer to finding my faith in humanity again.

If I can ask anyone of the Christian faith, or even one who may study said faith something, this is somewhat related.

Relating to the sacrament to what my particular religion calls "The Lords Supper", but I also know is called "Communion", etc., there is a scripture that states that if you have not forgiven others as God has forgiven you, that to continue on and take that particular sacrament is to literally take damnation upon yourself. This has always perplexed me. Depending upon how I am feeling at the time The Lords Supper comes around (once a month for my denomination ordinarily), I either do or do not take it...with almost a school girl's type fear that I shall be eating and drinking damnation upon myself. The odd looks I sometimes receive, although I don't worry about it too much, it is God who sees my heart, not the surrounding people at the service.

I just wondered how the rest of you see this portion of the Christian faith? I guess I personally see it as being 'all right' to take this sacrament, as God said to "Do this in rememberance of his Son", but there is just enough angst about it to prevent me from doing so from time to time.

Lucinda, you just earned a sneak peek at a section in my next book!

If forgiveness can take years or decades, and if it does not mean setting aside all feelings of anger, then what are we to do with religious texts that demand forgiveness of our betrayers? "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins" (Matthew 6:14). Yikes! This seems to clearly teach that if I cannot forgive my abuser, God cannot forgive me! For abused Christians, this verse has been a profound stumbling block, and many times I have counseled good, worthy Christian abuse victims who are dreadfully terrified that their inability to forgive their abusers makes them unacceptable to God.

But what is really happening in this passage? The context of the verse is a series of teachings about everyday moral behaviors, including giving to the needy, fasting, prayer, and non-materialism, in a book written about 30 years after the death of Jesus, and of which no original manuscript exists (the oldest versions of Matthew are Greek). There are scholarly questions that the passage has even been translated correctly at all, given the previous prayer to God to "lead us not into temptation" (does God tempt people into evil?). The text uses the Greek term " paraptomata" ("faults") rather than " hamartia" ("sins"), which may indicate that Jesus is speaking less about forgiving outright abuse, and more about recognizing the capacity of all humans to err, warning us against seeing ourselves as faultless while judging someone else's imperfections. But setting aside the possibility of faulty wording, this verse still may not mean that we are condemned for failing to forgive an abuser.

Our resistance to this passage usually comes from the flawed definition of forgiveness as exoneration, reconciliation, and releasing the offender from consequences. God certainly does not release us from the consequences of our conduct, so why would God ask us to release abusers from theirs? But if we replace this inferior definition of forgiveness with the "act of cleansing" definition insteadâforgiveness as purging the harmful effects of a betrayerâthen something changes in how we read the verse. Suddenly, God is not asking us to grant grace and comfort to a rapist, molester, batterer, or abuser; God is asking us to purge and cleanse the harmful effects of that trauma so that God's blessings to us will not be obstructed. God is not withholding the blessings as a penalty for not forgiving; God's blessings are drowned out by the agony we harbor until it is purged out of us. Further, keep in mind that there are types of unrepentant abuser that even God rejects, so a person who says "I just can't forgive them" may not be on the "wrong side of God" either. My friend Annie wrote,

"Recently I found myself, through no effort of my own, free of the desire for vengeance. What they did was horrible beyond words and almost destroyed me. But I have survived. I have experienced love and joy and the births of the cutest babies in the world. They didn't steal everything from me...And it feels good...surprisingly freeing. Getting rid of the hate, anger, and frustrated desire for revenge hasn't made the memories of my rape any less painful. It's just made me feel somewhat cleaner and lighter inside...and part of me is more free than I've been in 28 years."

Or as one of my friends humorously put it, "Matt can probably overlook any of you're mistakes, as long as your not mixing up 'your' & 'you're.'"

"Yikes! This seems to clearly teach that if I cannot forgive my abuser, God cannot forgive me! For abused Christians, this verse has been a profound stumbling block, and many times I have counseled good, worthy Christian abuse victims who are dreadfully terrified that their inability to forgive their abusers makes them unacceptable to God. "

EXACTLY! : ) Furthermore...if you are abused by your father, as I was....and you don't find yourself able to "honor him" in the way most would see fitting, as the scriptures command.....boy oh boy, would many see fit to condemn you immediately to the Hell fire. : ) (I don't really and truly believe that, I'm just having a little fun with myself.) I just knew that I couldn't be the only one to ponder such things. Thanks Matt....looking forward to the new book. Certainly you must make an announcement when it is ready. : )

I felt a similar wave of freedom that you describe of Annie, only under different sort of circumstance, when I was able to delineate for myself through my own study that God did not "do bad things to people to draw them closer to Him" and then be able to stand up to my Pastor in regards to his comments to that effect.

To back up a moment in that regard, I had walked into his office on the day of my daughter's dissappearance, March 1, 2010, after exhausting all possible options within my power in the city. His explanation was God sometimes causes bad things to happen to people to draw them near to Him. I was already quite in shock, but that comment shook me to my core. Once my daughter returned and we began to settle things down, I studied that out like a mad woman. I consulted dictionaries and concordances and my Bible. And then I approached him, apologizing for having been offended at him (he said he had no idea), as I wished to rid myself of that offense, but removing myself from further studying under him. We simply do not agree on some basic doctrine it seems. : ) It was very empowering to have 'broken free' of that belief, one which he was not the first to convey to me, but most certainly will be the last that will do so without my stating so in their presence. Not with disrespect mind you...but with my own power and authority over myself and my beliefs, that which God himself has granted me.

I agree with everyone else about the term "forgiveness."

When I first saw the term forgiveness in RaR, my first reaction was "FUCK THAT." I didn't even read the chapter! I skipped over it entirely. When I finally went back and read the chapter, I was still in the "FUCK THAT" attitude. Honestly, I'm still in the fuck that attitude towards the term forgiveness.

But as to the term purging or cleansing, that has an entirely different meaning to me. In my opinion, those words do not even belong together in remotely the same context! Purging and cleansing yourself of the anger, the hurt, the terror, all the feelings that I used to carry with me. I've done that to some degree. And believe me was it the best thing I have ever done in my entire life! Mine came by way of letters. I have not sent these letters yet but I wholeheartedly intend on sending them when I feel they are perfect. When I feel they completely purge and cleanse me. It will be a strong day. It will be a beautiful day. When I have accomplished this, I will wash my hands clean and move forward.

Does moving forward mean I will never trigger, never have a bad day, never be sad about my past, or unsure about my future because of my past? I don't think so. I think it's normal for everyone to have bad days. It's healthy for everyone to feel. Feeling is something so many of us didn't allow ourselves to do for so long. To feel is extremely important.

But even if you were to say that was forgiveness, I disagree. I think that is totally different than forgiveness. I feel that the word "forgiveness" is a word that has been twisted and molded to appease religious and societal norms that I do not want to have anything to do with. I don't want to be a part of that. I would much rather create my own social norm and faith based rules.

Matt, The first night of the retreat where a lot of the girls went to Walmart, I stayed back. But something that you said to me about religion has really stuck with me. I think that we were talking about how some religions viewed God as an omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipotent entity. This view has made me very angry at God because if he really was all these things this means that God knew I would be raped and had the power to stop it if he so chose. Your answer to me was simply maybe God is not all knowing or all powerful. I really appreciate your simple answer to me, I have not ever really thought of God in any other way than what the church had presented it to me. But you made me see that religion, and God is not really as black and white as a lot of religions make it out to be. For me this has really allowed me to become closer to my faith again. I am very interested to read your next book.

I wonder how many people saw the chapter on forgiveness and thought "@$^& that!" and refused to ever read what it actually said...

Megan, the idea that God is not all-powerful, in the sense that God cannot prevent all forms of harm, is called "process theology" by theologians. Rabbi Harold Kushner, in his book "When Bad Things Happen to Good People," endorses that view. I'm not yet settled on what I believe about it; I'm not sure if I lean toward the "process" view, where God cannot prevent all harm, or toward Tonya's view, where God uses power to create the universe and endows it with natural laws that generally function well, but also permit some unwanted consequences too (like plate tectonics, which are essential for the earth to support life, also resulting in occasional earthquakes).

I am settled on a couple of conclusions, though: first, God does NOT use pain and tragedy as ways to force people around. Second, God may permit occurrences of suffering, but God does not *promote* suffering. Trauma is not God's will, nor a tool that God uses to knock us back in line. And third, God is not designing our experiences of pain and loss, but God IS part of how we respond to it. That's why I can say that rape is not part of God's intention for anyone, yet God was so clearly with us at the retreat where survivors of rape formed a brief, holy community. Perhaps the question isn't, "Why is there suffering?" but "since there is suffering, how will we respond?"

Here's a thought: what do you call the Creator in your religion? "God?" What does "God" mean? Most people don't know; it's just a term.

But Native people use the term "Great Mystery." This isn't just some riddle, it's a vast mystery that compels us to seek, to learn, to find teachings in things as small as a pebble to as vast as a billion stars above. For us, creation isn't just something to learn about, it's something to learn FROM. I don't know why there is suffering, but I know that the Spirit who forms the connective tissue of all things still beckons us to always do better, heal, uplift, and love. Ultimately, pain doesn't win.

Matt, you asked what God means, for thoughts on the Creator as we know Him, the Great Mystery of God. Surely this should be a new thread...this one on forgiveness is so long already! :-)

I hope you will allow me to share my convictions on this subject. Some of you may not agree, and I know that these are very personal thoughts. I am not as articulate as some of you, and we all must settle these issues in our own way, in our own mind, with our own convictions.

In my case, I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. There are some things in it that are not popular, comfortable or even easy to believe. But I am convicted that I can't just pull out the things that out that I understand, and discount the things that don't make sense to me. I believe that God is on a much higher plane than I am, and that I do not have the brain cells or the perspective to understand how all things work together. It is hard for me to see anything beyond my own situation, as if I (and the people I love) are at the center of the universe. The truth by scripture is that He is the center of the universe, and my whole purpose for being here is to bring Him glory and become more like Him in the time I have here. I believe that I am His child, and this world, in a way is my hell. I am affected by the evil in this world on a daily basis... just because it is here, not because I did anything to deserve it. (Not to say I don't believe in a real place called hell. God makes it very clear in the Bible that hell is real, and because the Bible is my roadmap, I believe very clearly that it exists and that there will be eternal punishment and eternal separation from God there for the lost- -most likely my daughter's rapist will be there, unless he changes).
I believe by scripture that all who are lost have the opportunity for salvation from hell, and to be His child, too. We have the free will to choose our own way, and God allows us to choose our own destiny by our willingness to decide to believe and accept Him. When we become His child, He loves and protects us as His own beloved child, the perfect Father. In my mind, and by scripture, His perfection is also beyond our limited understanding. We sometimes think we know how His perfection should look based on the world's standards, and maybe we are just not that smart to understand divine perfection.
It is my belief that God is all powerful, just like the Bible teaches. That means He has the power to do ANYTHING He wants to do. It is also my belief that He is absolutely Holy. Which means He would never do or cause anything that is evil. Could He stop all evil? Absolutely. By scripture all evil WILL be overcome by Him, at His precise timing, and we will all be with Him in a place where evil or suffering doesn't exist. Until that day, we are here in this world living in and amongst evil and sin.
I believe by scripture that God knows each one of us in a very intimate way. Knows our thoughts, our fears, our innermost being. I believe by scripture that when we become His child, He sends a dimension of Himself, the Holy Spirit, to actually reside in our heart and comfort us, even lead us through decisions and dilemmas as we are faced with them. It is through this that I believe we can acquire a feeling of peace, that literally is beyond human understanding, in the midst of the most troubling of times. I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that God knows us even before we are born, by scripture God knits us together in our mothers womb to make us uniquely qualified to fulfill His purpose for our lives. I believe that we are fearfully and wonderfully made in His own image, with uniqueness that comes from His orchestration even at the point of conception. I only share this belief now because I know by scripture that His absolute knowledge of our innermost being is why He knows what we are capable of overcoming in this world that is full of sin and evil. By scripture, He will never allow more evil in our lives than we can handle with His help,including all resources which are structured around His word.
Although by scripture I believe in the sovereignty of God beyond all powers, which of course means that He could and protect us from all evil, I believe that His purpose for us to glorify Him and become more like Him leads to the allowance of the exposure to evil in our lives. Each one of us is exposed to sin all of the time, some from the result of our own actions, and some from absolutely no fault of our own.. like rape and other forms of abuse. I believe by scripture if He allows certain evil to affect our lives, it is because He knows that it will make us stronger, ultimately that it will make us become more like Jesus, and His purpose is for us to use the experience to glorify Him in our every day walks. It is through prayer and relationship with Him that we can not only overcome this evil, but actually find a way to use this evil for good as we move through this life in our own unique path.

I am sure I have lost some of you here. I am sorry if this sounds far fetched to you, I am just trying to share with you in the simplest of terms what my reality is in dealing with these evil and hurtful things that have happened in my own life. I didn't always understand it this way, but He has graciously led me through scripture to make it so clear in times of trouble and strife. He affirms some of it for me in time, by my being able to clearly see some of the things in my life that were evil that ultimately led to goodness.

By scripture, I think that our earthly lifetime is so short in the timeline of God... eternity future is where our life is really lived. In this short time on earth, we are exposed to things that God allows to mold us into being a person more like Jesus. As this happens to us, we bring Him glory and honor by touching the lives around us with the qualities that we only acquire through the Holy Spirit..
I believe by scripture that God prefers to use people like us to do great and mighty things through Him. If you study the people He used in the Bible, they were usually ordinary people like us, with faults and even disabilities that he used to make great influences for Him.
I believe that if God did not intend for us to use the hurtful things against us to help others, love others, bring glory and honor to the goodness of Him, He would have allowed our lives to be ended in the abuse and trauma that we suffered. I believe by scripture that we have the opportunity to turn what was intended for evil into something beautiful for Him by making a difference in the lives of others. Through the healing balm of His word, I believe He walks us through the course of the rest of our purposes here.

This is a crazy view from the world's perspective, and I know that. So much about the love and guidance of God, and all that it affects, seems crazy to this world. We think that we should be able to analyze, define and understand every detail and work through the issues on our own intelligence. The fact is that the trust that it takes to walk through this world is far beyond our own understanding. It makes perfect sense if you trust in the Creator of the universe to guide us through His word. Until then, it will remain a stuck point for us and our healing is limited by our own understanding.

One of the good things that my daughter's rape has led to, for me, is the discovery of this group. You guys have inspired me by your sweet love and support for each other, and your ultimate search for the truths that will set you free from the effects of the evil brought against you. There are days when I flashback to your own situations, and pray with love and relief that I have been allowed to be here, to participate in this healing process. The truth is I could turn to you guys for support when I really couldn't get it from some people in my own church. Does this tell me that my church isn't a good place? It tells me that my church is made up of people... who are imperfect and often self centered beings, just like I am. It helps me see where God may be leading me to do my work to make this bad experience bring good.

Thanks for your patience in my awkward ways of sharing my convictions!

hhhmmm... no comments... is this the silent treatment... maybe I shared too much!

That's a lot for me to read all in one sitting. I've read some of it. I'll come back to it. But know it's not the silent treatment.

I have just been thinking about the Holy Spirit and guidance. I found that I felt so unsure last week and am looking to see where and how and if the Holy Spirit was giving me any guidance!!??

Also the idea of Gods ability to end evil (or spare us from evil) I have had some profoundly spiritual experiences. I do wonder... I think it might be on many peoples minds after this oil spill.

Lisapnky;

Your post reminded me of a Jewish saying: the Torah is written with black fire on white fire. The black fire is the words we see and by extension all of the formal interpretations and visible traditions of a faith community. The white fire is life itself and all the ways we experience it. The idea is that God speaks through both and that we need both just as we need the spaces between the words to see the letters.

When I read your reflections on bringing good out of evil and trusting that God is with you somewhere in the midst of all of the yuck, I see someone who is trying to look at her faith and see both the white and the black fire.

There is another aspect of the image of black fire on white fire. Fire is alive. It dances and moves from place to place. It changes from moment to moment. No two people see it the same shape or even location. It is the same thing with anything that is truly God speaking - it is alive and gives life and each of us hears what we need to hear because this fire is ultimately Love.

I also believe that the particular life giving words we hear can be a reflection of God's mission for us. We do not all see the same thing, so we each need to speak about what we do hear. If you are seeing a connection between your faith and some ways your congregation needs to grow in its understanding of rape and trauma and how to minister to that experience perhaps that is your bit of God's Word to share with the world.

Elisheva- Thanks for your comments. I agree with you about God's "speaking" or word being a thing that is alive, and dancing and received by each one in his own situation. It is so common for me to study a scripture , and have it speak to me in different ways depending on the season of life I am in. To me. it does live and breathe to comfort and heal the conflicts of the day, and lead me in my unique purpose. I also do agree that my daughter's rape has revealed a need for ministry in the area of trauma in our church community. I hope God is preparing both my daughter and I for whatever role we may have in that need.

Just an FYI,
On the contrary to how many people never read the chapter on forgiveness, I read it because I was looking for reasons NOT to forgive. There are very few sources out there that approach the topic and those that do usually claim forgiveness is necessary for healing. I found the chapter to be well balanced and insightful.
In fact, I only remember throwing the book when I read the part about "using your rape to shock others or to draw attention to yourself". The first time through I didn't really get it. Only after thinking for a while did I understand how this could be true, i.e. bringing it up to make people feel sorry for you, at inappropriate times, in misplaced anger, etc.