You are ALL a bunch of geeks but that is neither here nor there :p
Thanks for the bump, REALLY interesting thread.
Returning to the topic at hand, I still contend that some of us belong to the camp of individuals who don't "need" forgiveness no matter how you define the term. I choose not to forgive because forgiveness FOR ME is linked with acceptance and I will not accept that what happened was appropriate. I also do not believe my healing requires forgiveness and in fact believe it is the opposite. For me to heal I need to regain that confident defiant woman who will not be debased and will not tolerate evil persons and behavior. Admittedly I don't have religious beliefs related to forgiveness there is no motivation for me to forgive based on faith.
Although I am angry about what happened, I don't believe that anger is what keeps me from forgiving, but I do think the topic of anger is interesting in and of itself. What really resonated with me in this thread was the quote that anger makes me feel alive (sorry I forgot who wrote this and if it wasn't up to 11 pages I would look back and credit you!)and I agree with this.
I believe that anger can be motivating and appropriate in some situations. Negative emotions don't in my humble opinion always contribute in a negative way either psychologically or physiologically. It would seem over time that anger starts to replace fear. In the past when I would see my co-worker I would become afraid and sick to my stomach and usually run off to my office to hide and cry. The day would pretty much be ruined. Lately when I see him it pisses me off but I can still function. It seems the anger serves as a warning to stay away from that person but without the harmful side-effects of the fear.

Hey Jic..just you just call Mwah a geek?...*shakes head* LOL :)

I think your ideas are good ones. Sound and reasonable and as I was told (as it happens by a priest of all people) THAT is what matters. Its neither here nor there what the definition is...since, in my opinion...there is no clear defintion it is what we each need it to be for ourselves. If I would have to come up with a description, it would come closest for me to describe as and inner peace..a peace within my heart. My heart changed...if that makes any sense to anyone but me:)

I agree with you, Matt.
In my case, forgiveness has to occur daily.
I have the anger, I think it is righteous because it is against the evil act that hurt someone I love very much (my daughter). I forgive the individual for being a lost wretch, like I once was. He has no idea at this point what he has done because he is literally a slave to sin and evil. I can't waste my energy hating him, because I have to spend all my energy healing myself and helping my daughter to heal.
My spiritual convictions play out like this: I have to remind myself often that the act will be brought to justice, not by me but by God, because He cannot be reconciled with evil. The lost pitiful soul that carried out the evil act can be reconciled if he chooses to come to forgiveness through Christ. He still will suffer consequences, if only the guilt from the realization of how he hurt another precious child of God. If he stays lost, he will surely burn in hell for eternity... which is the ultimate punishment, in my mind.
Still, I have days that I flash to the actual act and it breaks my heart and makes me angry. I have to pray my way through the realization of my belief in the sovereignty of God and His promise to use this, yes even this, to our ultimate good and His glory. Then I look for affirmation of the good that has come out of the trauma... and to my relief, i always find it. Yes, there is pain and suffering that also results. But in the long run, it leads to strength and wisdom through His love. My daughter is going through all the hurtful things that happen after rape. But she is also healing, slowly but surely, and very few days go by that I don't see little supernatural things that I believe are sent by God Himself to help her (and me) through it all. He has not deserted us in our pain, in fact He has held us in His loving arms.
The suffering part is really hard when you watch it affect your child, who you have nurtured and loved and protected for all these years. In fact, sometimes I reflect on the bonding that happens when our kids are babies and we think out loud that if anyone ever hurts them like that you will kill them. Or at least make them wish they were dead.
Then it happens, and you have this conflict in your heart. If I kill him, I will feel better for an instant (like he apparently did when he raped her), but then what. What would God ask me to do... what would Jesus do. And I know that I am called to respond in a much different way. That is a hard, yet freeing realization. It is only with His loving help that I can forgive. And by that I mean I did not kill him, or maim him for life, except in my dreams. I turned over the need for revenge to God, because I trust that He is just and will punish the evil act in a way that is righteous and good.. something I could never do alone.
As for the suffering... I have to bond with Jesus in His suffering. He suffered, and wept, and felt the pain and expressed it. Knowing that He suffered against the hand of evil people, and did not deserve it, has helped me and ultimately brought me to better understand Him. When I look back on my life I realize that it is when I suffer that I feel closer to Him. So far, it has been the same way for my daughter. Although I would never wish any pain on her, I am so thankful that pain brings her closer to the Healer and that she hasn't turned away from Him.
Forgiveness is defined in many ways. To me it is not allowing the evil act to define me, my attitude, my life. Forgiveness to me is to not be consumed by hate so that I can't feel the love and compassion of Jesus. Doesn't mean I would ever think that that a guy who did this shouldn't be punished. To me it just means that I can leave the revenge out of it, leave the punishment to Him, and concentrate on healing and using whatever I can from the experience for good.

I believe that what someone would feel for a justice serving retribution would be different from someone who hurts an innocent person?!If I hurt the one who hurt me I wouldn't necessarily feel good I would perhaps feel it just. I would have to be a sick sick person to hurt someone who is just being nice and normal and living their lives without hurting anyone.

Oh man, let me agree with jicrober as strongly as possible, that one one molecule of my definition of forgiveness has ANYTHING to do with "accepting that what happened was appropriate." Anyone who WOULD endorse such an idea is colluding with abusers and perpetrators, period! I hope nobody has EVER thought that bears any resemblance to my philosophy of forgiveness; mine is SOOOO far from that. I would say that mine is perhaps the opposite of it: not accepting "that what happened was appropriate," but the contrary: accepting that what happened was truly INappropriate. It starts with a bold knowledge of that truth. Nothing about it has anything to do with acceptance (as in, "tolerating what happened"), nor in swallowing something awful as if it were ever "appropriate." even the word "accept" is merely a synonym for "acknowledge the truth of," and not "put up with, tolerate, permit, or allow."

For example, here is the PROPER use of the words Acceptance and Forgiveness:

"I accept the truth that what happened to me was rape. I can't dodge that fact any longer. I accept that the rape caused me distress and harm that lasted beyond the crime itself, and that I have been living with those traumatic effects since then. I accept that I have at times blamed myself. And now I accept that in order to heal, I must end that habit of self-blame, and repudiate the notion that rape has made me any less-deserving and valued a person as anyone else. By accepting those truths, I can now begin to forgive, which does not mean having favorable intentions toward my betrayer, but rather means cleansing and purging myself of this trauma so that I can re-emerge whole as I was intended."

Having reaffirmed this, I don't think my philosophy of forgiveness is wishy-washy, or has anything to do with tolerance and peace toward cruelty. In fact, mine's a rather militant, assertive concept: it is TOTALLY about denouncing the injustice, and TOTALLY about affirming the worth of the victim, and grants not a speck of comfort or peace to the betrayer. For me, forgiveness is a radical act of self-justice, period.

I don't care what we call it. I don't love the term "forgiveness," and have often said I wish it could be dumped in favor of "purged" or "cleansed," as in "I purge/cleanse myself of you" versus "I forgive you." Think of the many women who cast mementos of their traumas into the flames at the 2010 Retreat, and wept with arms around one another and said, "I did it! I'm finally free!" THAT was forgiveness, and it happened not through sentimental kindness toward a betrayer, but through SCORCHING the betrayer's relics in flames! That's hardly acceptance of a crime as now being appropriate. It's a bold, empowered, and inspiring "fuck you!" to trauma.

That felt kinda good to type, actually.

Oh man, let me agree with jicrober as strongly as possible, that not one molecule of my definition of forgiveness has ANYTHING to do with "accepting that what happened was appropriate." Anyone who WOULD endorse such an idea is colluding with abusers and perpetrators, period! I hope nobody has EVER thought that bears any resemblance to my philosophy of forgiveness; mine is SOOOO far from that. I would say that mine is perhaps the opposite of it: not accepting "that what happened was appropriate," but the contrary: accepting that what happened was truly INappropriate. It starts with a bold knowledge of that truth. Nothing about it has anything to do with acceptance (as in, "tolerating what happened"), nor in swallowing something awful as if it were ever "appropriate." even the word "accept" is merely a synonym for "acknowledge the truth of," and not "put up with, tolerate, permit, or allow."

For example, here is the PROPER use of the words Acceptance and Forgiveness:

"I accept the truth that what happened to me was rape. I can't dodge that fact any longer. I accept that the rape caused me distress and harm that lasted beyond the crime itself, and that I have been living with those traumatic effects since then. I accept that I have at times blamed myself. And now I accept that in order to heal, I must end that habit of self-blame, and repudiate the notion that rape has made me any less-deserving and valued a person as anyone else. By accepting those truths, I can now begin to forgive, which does not mean having favorable intentions toward my betrayer, but rather means cleansing and purging myself of this trauma so that I can re-emerge whole as I was intended."

Having reaffirmed this, I don't think my philosophy of forgiveness is wishy-washy, or has anything to do with tolerance and peace toward cruelty. In fact, mine's a rather militant, assertive concept: it is TOTALLY about denouncing the injustice, and TOTALLY about affirming the worth of the victim, and grants not a speck of comfort or peace to the betrayer. For me, forgiveness is a radical act of self-justice, period.

I don't care what we call it. I don't love the term "forgiveness," and have often said I wish it could be dumped in favor of "purged" or "cleansed," as in "I purge/cleanse myself of you" versus "I forgive you." Think of the many women who cast mementos of their traumas into the flames at the 2010 Retreat, and wept with arms around one another and said, "I did it! I'm finally free!" THAT was forgiveness, and it happened not through sentimental kindness toward a betrayer, but through SCORCHING the betrayer's relics in flames! That's hardly acceptance of a crime as now being appropriate. It's a bold, empowered, and inspiring "fuck you!" to trauma.

That felt kinda good to type, actually.

Matt, I totally get that it felt good to type what you did. What you wrote here fit in with what I wrote earlier about not being ready to forgive because I haven't totally acknowledged what it is that I'm forgiving. I'm a lot closer to it than I have ever been, but I'm not there yet.

I remember watching you put things in the fire, Matt, and I don't remember your exact words, but you were very transparent about the attitude in your heart. It wasn't an angry "I hate you and I'm burning this because it reminds me of you!" attitude, nor was it "What you did was no big deal". It was that freedom you describe here, that letting go, that cleansing. I watched that and I felt it and I looked forward to a day when I can do something similar, coming from that same place.

Letting go of the desire for revenge was a big part of forgiving my rapists. I have no desire to see them again...I'm sure the old guy is long dead...but I'm free from the hatred. Sometimes I still get angry, but it's different than before. I'm not sure I ever want to reach a point where I no longer get angry at the evil they perpetrated against me and so many other women.

But my brother...that is way more complex. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around what happened, still trying to sort it out, still trying to come to grips with how deeply hurt I've been for a very long time. I haven't even let myself get as angry as I think would be appropriate or necessary for healing. It sounds horrible, but I'm glad he's dead because I don't have to deal with him, don't have to explain to anyone why I suddenly couldn't bear the thought of being anywhere near him. I don't have to worry about stuff like, "Can we ever be reconciled? Do I even want that?" I don't have to worry about my husband beating him into a pulp...or me doing the same.

But, at some point, I no longer want him still exerting control over me from the grave. When I've finally faced all of it the best I can, when I've broken the silence about every last thing and named everything I can remember that he did to abuse and violate me, when I've raged and yelled and screamed, when I have gotten it all out, brought every ugly dark thing out into the light, and when I am finally ready to be free, when I no longer want to spit (or worse) on his grave...then I'll be ready to forgive.

Matt, I love your last post it gave me chills, and is exactly what I am meaning about forgiveness. I don't condone what he did to me but I have to rid myself of what he did to me in order to heal.

If I had burned thing in anger, it wouldn't have been healthy for me yet. I needed to burn them in freedom, so it would be a holy ceremony worthy of the spirit I want to have. "This is not hate. It is not spite, or bitterness, or disgust. It's simply a new way of being free." Thats what I said, I think. I don't ever want to be seen as a bitter or harsh spirit. The strength that nobody has to fear is the only kind that matters.

That's right -- that's what I remember you saying. I look forward to being able to say the same thing someday. It was really powerful to me, and I was so glad that I was able to be there.

"It's a bold, empowered, and inspiring "fuck you!" to trauma"

That is quite possibly the best quote I have heard all day and probably my new Facebook status! Thanks Matt! :)

I KNOW the term 'forgiveness' was a hurdle. I was outraged at the mere mention of that word. I wonder why that words you mentioned 'purge/cleanse' aren't used to describe what the intent of therapeutic work is as readily as the word forgiveness. I think my biggest problem with the word forgiveness is that all too often we've seen forgiveness granted to someone, the thought of extending anything to my rapist was infuriating to me.

I think in the next edition of RAR you should change the forgiveness part of the book, well just tweak it. Add to that section "I don't love the term 'forgiveness' with it's definition...but rather forgiveness is a bold, empowered and inspiring "fuck you!" to trauma" I would have LOVED to read that when I first read that section, rather than my first reaction of ...'what does HE know anyway??"

I second Judy's idea.

Well here I am in the mix...better late than never. : )

I completely agree with the purging of myself FOR myself...between myself and God alone. I personally do not believe that I have 'the authority' or 'the power' if you will to forgive that person's action on the behalf of God, the Creator....that is between God and them. Even if they asked my forgiveness (which they have not) and I elected to forgive them face to face, I do not believe that I could 'forgive' them on the behalf of God almighty. Perhaps He shall if they were to repent, but I feel that I have no say in their ultimately being forgiven by God or not. I do feel, however, that I have the power and responsibility to purge myself, my own spirit, of the foul remnants that those who have hurt me have left behind by their actions. In the end I truly feel that the only soul that I am truly responsible for answering for completely is my own. So for me, forgiveness is in essence getting my own self off the hook, so to speak. I can (and have) asked God to forgive me as an individual for bitterness and resentment towards individuals and their actions. Different actions seem to require varying lengths of time for me to purge and some I am completely uncertain if they will ever be purged completely and fully, but I have never quit trying and don't plan to. I'm not sure if I am explaining very well the way that I feel about this entirely...but even though I can work toward purging myself of the nasty remnants their actions caused, I can never condone their actions. I could never say, "Well I forgive you for raping me...it's okay." It's not okay. It's not even close to okay to put it mildly. It's vile and I would much rather that it never happened to myself or any other mortal on this planet, including my rapist. I guess what I am saying is that I ask God to forgive me...forgive me for ever thinking that it was my fault or that I was in any way complicit in those actions, forgive me for being a bitter person at times, forgive me for ever doubting Him even momentarily, etc." I can even say God, please forgive my Dad and my son, for they really do not know what they have done (to both their victims and ultimately themselves)...although honestly, I believe that last bit to have little to no merit until or unless they truly repent to God for themselves. But again, in my personal opinion, that is between them and God alone.

And can I just add....whoever on the face of this earth came up with "Forgive and Forget" has some 'splaining to do. To forget to me would be to turn my back on similar injustice.

Good timing--I'm about to do a few tweaks to the book before the next batch of printing, so it's the perfect moment to slip that in. But most of this content is going into the next book that I'm working on now.

I think "forgive" became the standard term because of its religious connotations, especially the Lord's Prayer. It gave it an aura of holiness that made people assume it was some sort of transcendent, serene acceptance (there we go again, jicrober!) of hardship. The notion that suffering makes us holy is a longstanding church myth, and may explain the reluctance of many churches to take on issues like abuse in their ministry.