I agree with Matt. I've definitely slammed my own doors. Even once threw jello on the wall when I was a kid. I think my only point about my rage and childhood toys was the way choice can have destructive consequences. My toys were important to me because I was a kid so it would have been a real loss (and hurt to myself) to destroy them. But as long as you _yourself_ are safe and no one else is hurt - I say fire away!

When I was a kid my brother and I had a punching back on a pole. One of us (who?) hit that bag so hard that the pole bent and it would spin around every time we punched it. The bag was a suggestion of some child psychologist (my little brother's I think).

When I was 6 I spent some time visiting a child psychologist - my primary school was concerned about the way kids were teasing me and how upset I was getting. The child pychiatrist had a doll house and a bozo the clown punching bag. I spent a lot of time punching Bozo the clown: he was just filled with air so he always bounced right back up. I loved it! I could be angry and not hurt anything ... and apparently acting out my parents fights in the doll house. Enough to get the psychiatrist (a woman named Dr. Weiss) to call my mother in and ask her if she was being abused. So sometimes acting out rage (in a safe way) can be very, very good.

You know I have had my first inkling of doing something. It's small maybe not real significant but I just read a pretty good list of controller behaviors. It's really quite good I think. I do not know if I ever would have read something like it prior - would I ever have read something like this when I did not think I would ever have to know. I think that it is through and enough. If I copied it and put copies everywhere... maybe just maybe some one would be given pertinent information. Why not just put 30 copies out on college campuses and high schools on bulletin boards ect.

http://www.answers.com/topic/forgiveness

Covers more discussion from religions and also The Course of Miracles

I started to read that article and then noticed that their definition included pardon - to excuse. Something that does not sit well with me at all. If i ever manage to truly forgive, it wont be because I excuse their behaviour. Their behaviour is inexcusable! If I excuse it I am saying its okay to trample on my soul and invade my body because, really, its no biggie.

God may be able to excuse atrocities against his children, if only with repentence. I would quite happily watch my abusers beg on broken, bloodied knees for that kind of forgiveness and I would still turn them away (and hold back the urge to spit in their faces - because that is gross :) )

If forgiveness is related to anger (as I saw someone mention here) than what happens if you have no anger. I have no anger towards my attacker. I don't hate him, I don't wish him ill, I have no anger over the rape at all... My therapist is puzzled by this fact actually.

I mentioned something similar to this..so I can really relate. I dont know if this is how you see it but this is what I feel it is:

I have no anger towards them because I have yet to accept, in my heart, that they did something worthy of my anger. I have plenty of anger for myself - its my fault, i should have, could have done something to stop it. I have taken on their sins and made them my own. By making them my own I no longer have to forgive them of anything - after all it was ME who was in the wrong.

Intellectually I can easily accept I was the innocent, well most of the time. Sometimes when my therapist gets me to compare myself to other children I want to shout 'but Im not like other children!!! I SHOULD have known better etc etc'

Im not sure I could be angry AT them..but I think I could get to a place where I am angry at what they did. Something I am testing the waters with at the moment.

Do you think your lack of anger is based along the same lines or something totally different?

I just read this about Judaism and Repentance, I find it particularly significant because there was a time that I actually thought that it would be easier for me to bear the suffering of the rape because I so knew the sin (of course I do not want to bear his sin and have since decided he should have to bear the understanding and the I do not want to bear his sin) and that it would actually be so much worse for the sinner to have to bear understanding truly what they did to another to bear what they did from God:

(Heb. teshuvah). Repentance is an integral element of Judaism and the fact that God accepts repentance is considered to be one of His greatest gifts to man.The sages distinguish two types of repentance: repentance out of fear of punishment for one's sins and repentance out of a deep love of God. Repentance of the first kind transforms all sins committed intentionally into sins committed through oversight or ignorance; this decreases the severity of the offense. Repentance out of love for God goes further; it changes all sins committed intentionally into merits. It is thus not surprising that the Talmud states, "The place occupied by those who have repented cannot be attained by even the most righteous person" (Ber. 34b). The word teshuvah, repentance, is derived from the Hebrew root sh-u-v, which means to return---the implication being to return to God. Thus, when the Bible says (Deut. 4:30), "when you return to the Lord your God," the sages understand this to refer to repentance. The concept of "return" also implies that the way of God is the norm and wrongdoing a deviation.

Yes, Tazzee, part of what I am going through now, is that I don't place blame where it belongs. I am with you, I see all the little "outs" that I "should have" seen, and didn't, therefore, its partially my fault.

The closest thing to placing blame was when my therapist said that Marc dumped all of his insecuritues, his lack of Self, his problems on to me that night. I responded that he had no right to do that. She was excited that I said that... that was the closest I ever came to placing the blame.

Last week, I told my therapist that I never grieved for what happened. I spent all of my time and energy into hiding it, I never embraced the loss that happened, never accepting that I am a changed person from it. I told her that I thought I needed a funeral of sorts, to move on. She loved the idea, and we are planning it. I think this will help me move on, I think I will be able to cry, to embrace what happened, to start to truly heal.

I think before I can heal, I need to forgive myself.

Solstice.....that seems like a GREAT step. Grieving, forgiving, healing. I'm so proud of you :)

The funeral sounds like an amazing idea. I hope it leads towards the forgiveness you seek in yourself.

I'm not sure that I want to forgive myself..I want to heal but I can't seem to push past this, so I am stuck. Somewhere in my head is a version of me that really does not want to let go of the self blame and their voice is strong.

This is different to not wanting to blame a perp I think...maybe the same? I might not want to forgive someone who has wronged me because I want to remain angry at them..the negative angry. I guess I want to remain angry at myself.

Its like holding onto a rope, dangling in the air. The rope is burning or snapping above you. Someone has said it is safe to jump down, but when you look down it seems too big a gap. You can't hold on because you wouldn't be able to control the fall but holding on seems safer, more comforting. This is where I am at the moment. Do I take a leap of faith and let go of the rope, or, do I hold on tight and hope that when I fall I land in a safe place?

bump.

First, what does "bump" mean?

Second, this thread was surprisingly overwhelming and emotional for me. I don't know why. I cannot even find words to contribute to this post because the emotions I feel are just consuming me. I definitely want to reread this thread after I clear my head and figure out why I am having the reaction that I am having.

I do know that at this very moment I want to scream "No" to it all. I feel very angry (irrationally so) that forgiveness must be a discussion rape surviors must have with each other. For me, it's as if we are expected to forgive our offenders even when they have not asked for our forgiveness and even when they have no understanding of the wrong they have committed.

When I read the varying definitions of forgiveness, it's as if we are trying to find a way to make forgiveness acceptable. I'm not being critical of what everyone has said. Many words written here are beautiful and harmonic to my soul. I appreciate the deep philosophical arguments and the sound reasonable points. It's just that the emotions take over me, and I begin to feel this bitterness at the attempt to make forgiveness a pill that one can swallow after having been a victim of a horrendous crime.

At its basic level, most people would define forgiveness as a pardon. According to Merrian-Webster (a common source), forgiveness is an act of giving up resentment of or claim to requital for; to cease to feel resentment against an offender.

Therapists are quick to tell you that forgiveness is a process and boast about the psychological benefits of forgiving. Theologians are just as quick to side-step what forgiveness is and instead, offer a personal story of triumphantly foriving during times of injustice or refer to story of another's plight. The South African religious leader Bishop Desmond Tutu, who faced the most terrible forms of injustice, once said, "Without forgiveness there is no future." Christian leaders will refer to Joseph's graciousness towards his brothers. The prodigal son is another common story used to show the beauty in forgiving. Buddhists tell the story of a hermit who is savagely beaten by a jealous king and yet unconditionally accepts the king.

Then there are the truly heroic examples of forgiveness, such as Corrie Ten Boom, who forgave her offenders under the most brutal and unjust circumstances. The pressure to forgive is undeniable. I guess I feel like a stubborn toddler digging his/her heels into the floor refusing to do whatever it is they are expected to do. I also feel shame for my inability to wholeheartedly forgive my perpetrators. If Corrie Ten Boom can forgive her offenders, surely I can forive the silly acts of my rapists.

Forgiveness seems like an intruder in my healing process. The underlying message is always that to truly heal I must be able to truly forgive. I find this impossible to do and this frustrates me.

"I feel very angry (irrationally so) that forgiveness must be a discussion rape surviors must have with each other. For me, it's as if we are expected to forgive our offenders even when they have not asked for our forgiveness and even when they have no understanding of the wrong they have committed. "

I feel that way too. I think it's because of society. There are plenty of people that say (unknowingly that this is hurtful) that it's been x number of years, when are you going to stop being angry? When are you going to forgive? Society doesn't believe that we have a right to be angry or changed by our encounters for years afterwards. "I've had plenty of bad things happen to me. You just need to move past it."

And they don't mean this in a mean way. They mean it with all the love in the world. But it's one of those things that I don't think people can fully understand unless they've lived through it. You just can't in my opinion.

"I guess I feel like a stubborn toddler digging his/her heels into the floor refusing to do whatever it is they are expected to do. "

That's just the reason dig my heals in the floor on this one! We SHOULD NOT be EXPECTED to forgive. That's bullshit to put it bluntly.

"If Corrie Ten Boom can forgive her offenders, surely I can forive the silly acts of my rapists."
Everyone's story is different. Don't downgrade the severity of what happened to you because of something that happened to someone else. Everyone's stories are their worst. That's what matters. They all level out because they are all our worst.

The way I see it forgiveness has to do with my relationship with the Divine and not with the perpetrator. I think that is why it is an important step in healing.

I think "FORGIVE" means someone has acted against God in order to be deemed that they would need forgiveness. That doesn't mean it's a pardon. I think that as one forgives they fully come to know and feel inside how much they are loved by God and a part of God.

To forgive I feel I am saying to the perpetrator "you acted against God". I actually believe that if we can not forgive than part of us fears that they did not act against God. But this is my definition to myself. Then repentance is needed that is between the perpetrator and God.

I think from reading all of these reply's forgiveness is something that is very personal and very different for everyone. Some people look at forgiveness from a theological standpoint, and others it comes from somewhere inside their own beliefs. In a perfect world we should not have to talk about forgiveness in terms of our abuse at all because in a perfect world rape would not happen.

For me I am not quite sure if I ever will, or want to forgive my rapist for what he has done to me because I know that he should be the one asking forgiveness from me. But also in terms of my rape forgiveness is an important part of my healing. I have lots of things about the rape that I still do or once have felt immense guilt. For example ( I never should have went to that party, I should have known better to trust him, I should have never gone out on painkillers.) I know now that all of the things I have mentioned is self blaming and mentally destructive to my thinking. So in terms of forgiveness I do forgive myself for harboring these negative thoughts and through forgiving myself for the things that I have done that has halted my healing I find peace.

This does not mean that I am not blazingly mad at my rapist and the fact that I have had to go through this. I still feel mad, hurt, betrayed. I am not forgiving myself for what he did to me because it was not my fault, and I am not forgiving him for what he did to me. But forgiving myself for the mistakes I have made allows me to make mistakes, it allows me to fail, and not be perfect.

Forgiveness is tricky to say the least.