Resurrection After Rape Community Group
Discussion, question-and-answer, general social support, and journal processing for progress-oriented rape survivors. No crisis, no damaging or triggering conflicts--this is for individuals who want to contribute to collective, cooperative action toward the goal of making actual PROGRESS through rape trauma. Much of this work is based on the book "Resurrection After...
From whatever perspective you'd like--religious, moral, philosophical, psychological, whatever. But what does "forgiveness" mean, and what are the benefits and risks of it?
I don't know who this O Connor person is, but I'm guessing she's not the O Conner that sat on the Supreme Court, or they would have her portrait down in a heart beat!! Don't Diss the Pope people..that's not cool!!
No hell ....psh Whatever!!
Thanks for the funny posts!
The whole issue isn't really as cut and dry as all that but if your looking for a reason to diss a religion well I think that's just an excuse...if we the behavior of a few to throw out all that we've learned and believe by the actions of humans, then for reference....
Therapists abuse
Doctors abuse
Dentist's abuse
Teachers abuse
Psychiatrist abuse
Psycholgists abuse
does that mean the philosophies behind these practices should be black listed and vilified?
There's no doubt the handling of the abuse could have been different and if your a practicing catholic, you will learn quickly that they have learned, they have changed policies. This OConnor woman could show 'repentance' , if you will, by learning about the problem. If she had done that before that appearance on national television, I'm sure we would have realized that vilifying a figure head's picture is nothing more than encouraging hate in our world... It would be good for people to keep in mind that the actions of human leaders on this earth does not epitomize the Catholic faith...
And Your Welcome! I believe in Hell and I believe in Hell on earth!
I think each of our definition's of Hell are as unique as our faith is...
To me, it is taking in the wrong that was done to you, letting it wash over you, understanding the wrong, healing from it, and accepting that it happened. I believe that in order to forgive, we must accept what happened, and heal that wound.
Is forgiveness easy... no. It is a struggle.
There was a young boy David Rothenberg, that made headlines years ago. His father set him on fire...David was 6 at the time, and was very severely burned over 90% of his body. Years later, and many surgeries later, I once heard him speak. He said something that stuck with me. "I have learned to forgive Charles (his father), but I will never understand why he did that". It takes an unbelievably strong person to be able to do that. David had said that in order for him to heal, he had to learn how to forgive.
I believe that. Personally, I think that I need to forgive myself for what happened. I don't ever see myself forgiving Marc for the attack, but I know that someday I can forgive myself. I can not only say, but BELIEVE that it was not my fault. All of the "should have , would have, could have" will not plague me. I am a strong person, and am getting stronger week by week. This is a stuck point, and I know when I move past it, I will heal more.
I will mull it over some more :)
I like the concept of God's forgiveness of our sin - - how I picture Him forgiving us. I "see" this huge body of water...stretching to infinity...from infinity - just there forever. I also see US as we are now...working, playing, laughing, crying.....living. I see God all around and through us as we do this thing called 'live'. I see us learning good vs bad...right vs wrong...love vs hate. As we learn, I see us mature in our attempts to live this life better. Kinder to others, more helpful, more engaging, more of all the good traits that God's word teaches us. As we make attempts at living out the things we learn, much like small children do...learning as we go -- I see us realizing our shortcomings at our previous attempts to live well. I see us aware, and regretful...repentant if you will. I believe this is the first step toward the forgiveness I imagine when I read the word. Self-realization. God-realization. The reality of our place in this Universe.
Next, I imagine others...those we must live with and around. In this picture, I see pain and trauma. I see the introduction of jealousy, envy, hatred, anger...and overt harm to others for the sake of our own promotion. It is in this realm where I see criminal acts against others take place. It is in this picture where my rape occured...where my abuse occured...where my acting out occured. It is in this picture that I see me with a heart that is filled to capacity with hurt...a huge and burdensome sadness that I cannot quash. So, because I believe this is still a learning phase for us...we learn til we die...I see us, those who have been wounded, searching for the proper way to live without becoming like the abuser in our life. The best example being God. So, we look to what we know of God to find how to forgive. This is the beginning of the perplexing issue for us, because...we are too human to be Godly enough to pull off the single most selfless act that can be accomplished - forgiveness.
I see God as forgiving in totality...not one iota of the original sin (not literally "original sin") is left in the memory of God. God has an ability we do not posess - he can forget the act once it is forgiven. That is where the sea I envision comes in....God casts our sin into the huge mass of 'water'...a figurative thing I am sure, but to me...I "see" it. In so doing, God has, in effect, erased our sin. It exists no longer. It is we who will continually remind Him of it, because, we don't have the 'forget' ability. And, we tend to make things much harder and more detailed than they indeed are. So, we break it down and beat ourselves up with pices of a thing God has no recall of. We cannot believe that God would create a thing so simplistic...so free...so, we bend it, and mold it into a thing that mimics our own way of dealing with others. We place conditions and limitations on it...and we erase the value of the end result altogether.
I do see forgiveness as a gift TO us...and a requirement OF us. In this stream of thought though, it is necessary that we do what was asked - define forgiveness. So, I say all of that (lol) to say this. I believe forgiveness is a verb. It is a word of action, a thing we must participate in to get the full benefit. I struggle with the literal aspects of my abiltiy to understand...and I believe forgiveness does incorpoarate the abusers in our lives. but, I do not believe that the forgiveness required of me emans I have to absolve the rapists..or my abusers for that matter of the acts they commited against me...I am not expected to toss the acts into the sea of forgetfullness and just live. God knows our limits, and He knows we haven't the capacity to foget such horrific acts. What I believe He expects is different than His example...at leat I think it is.
So far, it sounds as if I think we have a huge responsibiltiy, while our abusers bear not so much. Not exactly what I mean to say here. THEIR responsibilty involves THEM...and God. My responsibility involves ME and God. But the activity is indeed between myself and my abusers. The result of my forgiving the rapists is not to release them...but to release me. I have no power over their sin...and no power for getting THEM forgiven. I do not believe I can pray them out of trouble -- they must do that for themsleves. Their acts against me hurt me...but it devastated them in God's eyes. Again, I have no ability, or responsibility to accomplish anything for them. I do have the abiity, and the responsibility to act on my own behalf...with God. This requires nothing of my abuser, just me and God. I haven't perfected this...I haven't employed it necessarily. But, I want to do what God would have me do. Oh, and I do not believe God intends for me to forget the acts against me...he wants me not to be consumed with the upset to the point I do not reach out in kindness...that I do not notice the hungry....feed them...care for them. I am responsible for me and my connection to God. I am responsible NOT to let them and their evil get in the way of me loving my neighbor.
I think forgiveness has been given a bumb rap. I think it is painted as a wash....a cleansing of the darkness that allowed the sin in the first place. If that is so, then that is why so many of us have such trouble with it. I wonder how God...if He did...how He would set us up in such a situation as to be so easy to fail at this trial...this requirement to forgive. Like, doesn't it seem silly for God to say...."Forvive so Ye may be forgiven"...then set into play acts that are realistically unforgiveable...humanly impossible to accomplish? I think He wouldn't do that to us. The more I think about God...as a loving and protective father-figure...when many of us had father who were neither, I think He would make is much more simple. He would gift it to us...no strings. He would want us to suceed - not make it a probable failure. So, this thing we call forgiveness has GOT to be less complicated than we are thinking.
Forgiven. I will work hard to accomplish this. I believe it is between me and God....a conversation He and I must have...and my abusers need be nowhere in sight. I believe it will accomplish wondrous things in my life...and unless they (my abusers) set about that conversation between themselves and God -- they gain nothing from the interaction between God and me....absolutely nothing.
What are the risks? As far as I can see....none. Forgiveness was not a decision, it was an evolution process of my thoughts and feelings. Something that, at first introduction (in RAR) made me angry. But over time...evolved to a frame of mind for me. The hardest part wasn't writing the forgiveness letter, it was reading it aloud. But after I finished reading.....I was lighter. The best part, that lighter feeling has remained unshaken, now I have a question or two......
How can forgiveness not be part of your healing process? Without going in philosofical (sp?) circles, how can forgiveness in some way, shape or form NOT be a part of the YOUR process?
Take forgiveness out of any religious context and look at yourself, YOUR life as a whole. What have you got to lose by witholding forgiveness....who does it impact? You or your offender?
(and if anyone knows how to spell philosofical....wow....because thats a tough one:)
If forgiveness = letting go or wishing someone would experience the fullness of the grace of God in his/her life, I would say I had forgiven the man who raped me 10 days after the rape. I don't want him to rot in hell. I don't even necessarily want him to suffer. I do want him to one day see his actions were wrong. I pray that one day he will repent and convert the same energy that he used for tremendous evil into an energy for tremendous good.
And yet , you might also say I am withholding forgiveness. I don't need to take an internal stance of anger at the rapist because, quite frankly, I don't think any anger I could possibly have towards him holds a candle to the anger God has when God's beloved creatures are wounded or violated. I take a lot of comfort in that notion. Maybe I am not being forgiving by being glad that God is mad at him?
On the other hand, I also believe that God's mercy and compassion is as infinite as God's judgment, so to me, God being mad at the rapist isn't the least bit contradictory with my hope that the rapist will experience the fullness of grace. It all depends on his choices, on whether he continues on his path towards destructiveness or whether he turns and chooses good. I can see a huge risk in this world if we divorce moral action from choice or consequences.
I don't take an internal stance of anger at the rapist, but am I free of anger? Does forgiveness mean freedom from anger? I don't for one second think I am free of anger. But then again, I don't find anger inherently destructive. I do believe that can be such a thing as holy anger. Some anger can be healing. Some anger can be redemptive. Some anger can make us redeemers, partners with God in repairing a broken world. Anger can also be destructive. It can eat us alive. It can destroy and paralyze our potential for good. However, I do struggle with the words to express the difference between healing and destructive anger. There is a difference. I can feel it easily. I can see its effects easily. I don't really know how to put it into words.
The closest I can come is the anger of a parent. Good parents are sometimes mad at their kids, not because they want to hurt them, but because they want them to grow, to reach their full potential. I just don't think forgiveness is simple. I think we want it to be. But it isn't. Life isn't.
This has me thinking...a wrong doer is somehow not bring forth what is within them and thus they act in bad ways. They must be blocking it to such a degree they act contrary to good. A victim begins to heal when they bring forth what is within them and they realize that the perpetrators perception is to be declared because the person is not afraid of what is within them.
This is what happens every time...every time someone decides this thing inside me is so much more true and important than anything that would and will destroy me so I bring it forth and am saved.
I absolutely love this paragraph:
I see God as forgiving in totality...not one iota of the original sin (not literally "original sin") is left in the memory of God. God has an ability we do not posess - he can forget the act once it is forgiven. That is where the sea I envision comes in....God casts our sin into the huge mass of 'water'...a figurative thing I am sure, but to me...I "see" it. In so doing, God has, in effect, erased our sin. It exists no longer. It is we who will continually remind Him of it, because, we don't have the 'forget' ability. And, we tend to make things much harder and more detailed than they indeed are. So, we break it down and beat ourselves up with pices of a thing God has no recall of. We cannot believe that God would create a thing so simplistic...so free...so, we bend it, and mold it into a thing that mimics our own way of dealing with others. We place conditions and limitations on it...and we erase the value of the end result altogether.
I just had the courage to look up some information that was pertinent to me recently. A few years ago my parents were facing getting older and issues they could not seem to take care of on their own. I got information intuitively which I followed. It turned out what seemed hopeless I could see really could give them all they needed. What I saw and really had no real doubt about was not what everyone else saw and factually ...property comps ect did not confer... but having a brain and some guts to follow it I saw they could have all they needed. They won out my resolve to see my vision though was tested and I couldn't push myself to hold on. .. I felt it was a matter of life or death for my mom but still she was one that was throwing up so much fear and resistance. Any way they got taken...the place sold for not enough to cover their retirement. My mom died of pneumonia I think by some of the stress of what they had to do ... any way I finally got the guts to look up what happened and sure enough the person who bought their property sold it a month later for an extra 140,000. What I had been believing we could have gotten. That could have been theirs. It just reminded me of this cause things could be so much simpler and good if everyone didn't complicate so much. Unfortunately the person who arranged the sale I knew somewhat I was kinda hoping he wouldn't think only of themselves who were already quite well off. But I have to ask forgiveness for giving up on what I believed in for my mom to bow to my mom hysteronics. I also am not interested right now in forgiving the person who now I believe saw what I was going through and knew I was right but didn't act to support me. I wonder how God would see that whole situation??!
I want to look at things in my own life to see if I am complicating it too much.
Perhaps forgiveness is one thing and that gives us an initial peace ... yet we still think about reconciliation and that is what can only come from the repentance.
One of the hardest parts of my rape story to tell in full is the beginning of the rape.
I didn't forgive the rapist 10 days after. I forgave the rapist even before he raped me.
When the rapist broke into my car, declared his intention to rape me, and forced me backwards into my car seat, my very first words were: "May God forgive you". I usually tell people that what I meant was "May God forgive you because I cannot" but it isn't actually what I meant. I actually meant "May God forgive you". It was a prayer. For him. And for me.
When I was a child I used to sometimes feel intense rage. I would imagine myself throwing my toys all over my room to break them. I never did because I knew I would regret not having my toys. However, the sense of a fine fine line between choosing the good and the bad stayed with me even into adulthood. How easy it might be to cross that line I sometimes marveled. How easy it would be to forever change my fate and identity by a single choice.
And then here in my car was someone who had actually chosen to cross that line. In fact planned it that way. I wondered if he had any idea of just what he was doing to himself, his soul. I was horrified by the enormity of it even if he couldn't see it (I later concluded he got a sense of power from it, but that is another story). I didn't want this reality. Not for him. Not for me. Those words were meant as much in judgment as as they were as a release. The enormity of what was happening was just beyond my power to forgive or not forgive. It had to go into the hands of God. There was no other option.
It all happened in a second. In that sense it was simple. And yet it isn't simple at all. I fear telling this story. I think I fear the misunderstanding of forgiveness even more than I fear forgiveness itself. I don't want anyone to think that for one second I was devaluing my rights as a human being. It was moments after saying those words that I suddenly realized I had the option to fight. My initial response was shock and freezing like everyone else.
I apologize for sounding contentious on this thread, but it is really hard for me to hear of forgiveness in some of the ways it is being talked about here. My forgiveness was born of my pain and my horror, not out of some sort of blissful peace or letting go. It was the beginning of my anger, not the end.
I realize we all need a sense of peace, a way not to get caught up in endless fruitless circles of rage and frustration at a past we cannot change. But do we have to call that forgiveness?
I don't think you can truly get to a place of forgiveness without acknowledging the horror of what you have endured. I sometimes feel like i have forgiven past abusers because I feel no ill to them. But its not the same. I feel no ill because I have yet to accept/acknowledge to true horror of what was done to me as a person, as a soul.
Im not sure I am explaining myself very well..
I think peace in relation to forgiveness isnt necessarily from the act of forgiveness itself. We can find peace from our abuse without finding forgiveness, i think. The more i think about this topic the more hazy it seems to get in my definition :)
What I am trying to say, i think-lol, is that i believe forgiveness should be borne of some kind of self respect. It is not just an acceptance of past and then forgiveness. I can accept the past as the past quite easily...it doesnt have to be in a healthy way. I can accept that these things happened because of me..forgive them because it was me who 'caused' them and move away from any anger towards them and find peace in relation to them like that. But then it is nearly impossible to forgive myself.
Who says that forgiveness is about letting all anger disappear? These restrictions we may have included to the forgiveness definition..they may stifle us. You can be angry at someone and forgive them..i dont think they are mutually exclusive.