Resurrection After Rape Community Group
Discussion, question-and-answer, general social support, and journal processing for progress-oriented rape survivors. No crisis, no damaging or triggering conflicts--this is for individuals who want to contribute to collective, cooperative action toward the goal of making actual PROGRESS through rape trauma. Much of this work is based on the book "Resurrection After...
From whatever perspective you'd like--religious, moral, philosophical, psychological, whatever. But what does "forgiveness" mean, and what are the benefits and risks of it?
* when something bad happens to us, who do we need to forgive: ourselves, God, the person(s) that hurt us, society for allowing it to happen?
* when something bad happens to us, if forgiveness happens at all, who needs to do the forgiving? do we? society? God? does the forgiveness of any one of these guarentee the forgivenesss at all? Or does a person who screws up have to seek separate forgiveness from all of these sources?
* what preconditions are there for forgiveness? Does the person have to be sorry? Does the person have to remember what they did? Does the person have to have changed in such a way that they will never cause that particular hurt again? Be on their way to making that change? How far along? Is there a difference between being sorry and not hurting again? Can we forgive if someone changes but can't say sorry?
* what is the outcome of forgiveness for the person who messes up? Do their actions no longer have consequences? If there was a relationship with the perp prior, does that relationship go back to normal? If not, how does it change? Is there a difference between reconcilation and forgiveness?
* is it ethical to release a person from the consequences of their actions? When does compassion demand it? When does compassion become a danger to justice?
* what is the outcome of forgiveness for the person who was hurt? A lot of people talk about letting go. Are there ways to let go that do not compromise justice? How? Is letting go forgiveness?
* is there a different standard for human, social, and divine forgiveness? How do the answers to the above questions differ if the one forgiving is God, society, or ourselves?
I would say that this depends upon where you are in your healing. I would say that many of the questions around the perpetrator could not be answered until you fully accept what happened and become angry. I think that before that forgiveness is not even on the table.
However, "you" is a good one. I think that may be forgiveness may start with yourself. A lot of the time, I feel terrible for this having happened to me. That involves me not placing the blame where it truly deserves to be on the perpetrator. So, maybe forgiveness needs to start with oneself. I have not practiced it yet, but that is what I am thinking.
Secondly, if you are angry at God or have spirituality issues, then maybe that is another for forgiveness to regain some spirituality. I wish that I knew the answer to this one.
I will think more. I think that this question will have different answers based on where in the healing process that you are.
Something felt imperative in the need to forgive in order to heal. And initially I was reluctant ... what understanding of forgiveness got me to forgiving. Well I understood and comprehended what had happened to me. I understood it as an act against something sacred and God. So I figured if we as humans are all created by God we all share the same essence that liberates us or makes us aligned with God ... than of course I can forgive him because by forgiving him I am not saying what he did was okay I would be saying That soul acts out of alignment with God and that must be awful. That's as far as I got with it.
Although I do not think that in my forgiveness that I pardon the crime that can only come with true repentance on the wrong doers part...seeking forgiveness...or what is that thing the other is supposed to do REPENT. I do not think full forgiveness real forgiveness can happen unless the one who knowingly caused the harm repent.
Social stuff it's tough. I feel that enough times God has presented power and love to me so I believe...sometimes it's feeling great sometimes I feel awful. Just gotta keep the faith.
You and your can of worms Matt...
Im not sure if I am coming from a different place to everyone else but I have already forgiven most of my abusers. Whether that is borne of not having acceptance or from not forgiving myself, that may be a different issue. Which brings in the question of healthy forgiveness quite nicely.
I think to define forgiveness you need to define its structure, rules etc. first.
I always thought forgiveness meant getting to a place where a person no longer bothered you with their actions. By forgiving, you release the problem from yourself. But I have managed to forgive a person without forgiving the situation...
So maybe the key with that is forgiving my own actions first.Which may then bring out the unresolved anger and have it plaaced where it is supposed to be. Then, if i choose to forgive, it will be from a healthy place. The end result will be what I imagined forgiveness to be.
* when something bad happens to us, who do we need to forgive: ourselves, God, the person(s) that hurt us, society for allowing it to happen?
I think all of these are needed and possibly in that order too. My experience is that if you dont forgive yourself first it can be very easy to forgive them. If you feel at fault...what is there to blame them for??
* when something bad happens to us, if forgiveness happens at all, who needs to do the forgiving? do we? society? God? does the forgiveness of any one of these guarentee the forgivenesss at all? Or does a person who screws up have to seek separate forgiveness from all of these sources?
Hmmn. I think that we each have to seek our own forgiveness. A perp needs to repent or whatever to have god's forgiveness and society - if prosecuted etc etc. I think the one they seek the most is possibly ours (when they accept something was wrong). I dont think that one guarentees the other. If god spoke to me and said 'hi ive forgiven x,y and z.' I would say..but im not ready yet, if i wasnt. Im not sure that society as a whole ever does forgive. I think society, and therefore individuals, equate forgiveness with forgetting.
* what preconditions are there for forgiveness? Does the person have to be sorry? Does the person have to remember what they did? Does the person have to have changed in such a way that they will never cause that particular hurt again? Be on their way to making that change? How far along? Is there a difference between being sorry and not hurting again? Can we forgive if someone changes but can't say sorry?
Being sorry would help but I think, at least for me, I would be waiting an eternity for that. So I dont think their apologises are important. Should you trust the devil's apology?? I was thinking a while about this and I think if you are still in a place where you are thinking about their eternal damnation, im not sure that you have forgiven them, true forgiveness.
Forgiveness means letting go of that anger and wishing them health...or at least no harm. I believe actions speak louder than words because these abusers are manipulative and will say whatever they have to to keep victims on side.
Would it make you happier to know that they could change their behaviour? Or would that not open the can of worms - why didnt he change before me, whats wrong with me that he did that to me etc
* what is the outcome of forgiveness for the person who messes up? Do their actions no longer have consequences? If there was a relationship with the perp prior, does that relationship go back to normal? If not, how does it change? Is there a difference between reconcilation and forgiveness?
This is where I firmly believe that forgiveness is purely for personal benefit. Forgiveness doesnt erase the crime, just like it doesnt make people forget.
* is it ethical to release a person from the consequences of their actions? When does compassion demand it? When does compassion become a danger to justice?
This is the case at the moment. People are spending too much time humanising criminals, that they overlook the victims rights and status as the victim. When I say humanising..i mean looking into the whys. If the person is old enough to know their actions are wrong, is it really a matter for the courts to hear about how abused they were when children...past victisation shouldnt excuse their behaviour now. If i robbed a bank because i was always dirt poor as an abused child..i wouldnt get the same level of sympathy, it wouldnt excuse me robbing a bank. They whys are the problem of the prison psychologist, not the courts or the jury.
I also believe that a person releases themselves from the consequences. The emotional spiritual consequences. I dont think its ethical to let someone go without punishment because it sets a bad example to society as a whole.
* what is the outcome of forgiveness for the person who was hurt? A lot of people talk about letting go. Are there ways to let go that do not compromise justice? How? Is letting go forgiveness?
I think you can let go without having forgiveness in the same way you can forgive the person but not the crime. I think true forgiveness, healthy forgiveness, you will probably feel like you are letting go. The final healing step.
I would hope that forgiveness brings peace..and if peace isnt enough? Moral superiority :) You have managed to be the bigger person- a massive gigantic person. Because of how i see forgiveness, i would have to do some serious soul searching to get there.
Maybe the questions should be..how important is it to NOT forgive someone? What does not forgiving them give to you and your healing?
* is there a different standard for human, social, and divine forgiveness? How do the answers to the above questions differ if the one forgiving is God, society, or ourselves?
God forgives if we repent. It isnt biased or full of extra conditions..its just for my forgiveness you need to truely show a willingness to repent.
I dont believe that society does forgive. What i like and dislike at the same time is just because someone is imprisoned for a crime it doesnt automatically grant forgiven status in society. The worse the crime the less likely society will forgive you. Real justice? Maybe.
As human beings I think its a personal decision with very personal standards. Some people use their need for a nice world to forgive. They look for anything that gives them a reason to forgive someone. Others expect the 'perp' to earn their forgiveness. Some dont believe in forgiveness at all.
Had to get to some religious sites for extra clarity:
Psalm 137 calls for some revenge
Here is a beautiful rendering of the song based on psalm 137 by Sinead O'Connor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abUxePtuA1M&feature=PlayList&p=28876ECBE4A0C0C3&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=13
And some commentary from a christian page:
The desire for personal revenge is never an option for the Christian and we should always have the mind and heart of God "not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). But at the same time we do not want the name and character of our God blasphemed. We long for and pray for the time when God's righteousness will be realized "on earth as it is in heaven." We pray these prayers knowing full well that in the final analysis the universal reign of righteousness by a holy God demands the eternal punishment of the wicked. The imprecatory psalms are the Old Testament expression of this godly attitude.
David R. Reid
Not sure about the eternal punishment of the wicked!? But I am interested in how to bring wrong doers to repent and seek forgiveness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YloehHnJNo&feature=related
I think I am drawn to this song in how it describes the tormentors demanding song ...how can one sing in a strange land.
Like in rape the tormentor even for moments make one captive and demands upon the body.
I doubt that forgiveness expunges anger, or that forgiveness is a state of "being over it." When we stop being angry at injustice, what have we become, ourselves? I think there is room inside forgiveness for righteous anger; I just see forgiveness as something less like being over it and more like purging my life of the harmful effects of an action that may still anger me. (note the assumption that being angry is not a harmful effect)
The 'forgiveness' I have at the moment is more a meekness, an avoidance of the problem. What I want my forgiveness to be is empowering. I want the righteous anger. I want to be able to say - 'im angry for what you did to me but in the grand scheme of things..i wish you no harm.' Or 'your only repenting needs to be done to god...it has no use with me.' That sort of thing.
I think what forgiveness can offer is the freedom from the person who hurt us. It doesnt change the act or excuse the person..its just freedom.
We have become someone who is willing to accept every injustice..because how do we dofferentiate what is acceptable and what isn't anymore.
On a personal level, not being angry at the injustice I have experienced, has made me a victim. It keeps me a victim because whilst I am only angry at myself and not those who caused the injustice I am not able to rise about being a victim. I am not able to stand up for myself, to believe that I am worthy of that strength.
Being angry at injustice..to yourself or others shows that you value life.
This is a rebel song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbrDlVl3Ul8&feature=related
When she says "how come you've never said you are sorry" and I have
a couple more versions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBFf44V5fmI&feature=related
I love you my hard englishman
Your rage is like a fist in my womb
Can't you forgive what you think i've done
And love me - i'm your woman
And i desire you my hard englishman
And there is no more natural thing
So why should i not get loving
Don't be cold englishman
How come you've never said you love me
In all the time you've known me
How come you never say you're sorry
And i do
Ah, please talk to me englishman
What good will shutting me out get done
Meanwhile crazies are killing our sons
Oh listen - englishman
I've honoured you - hard englishman
Now i am calling your heart to my own
Oh let glorious love be done
Be truthful - englishman
How come you've never said you love me
In all the time you've known me
How come you never say you're sorry
And i do
I do
Ok, with me here's the thing, and in many ways, people have touched it but in different contexts.
This is what I think the definition of forgiveness has been that has been traditionally what we have been... conditioned (?) to think: Forgiveness is a CHOICE of releasing the anxiety and anger that you hold against another person regardless of their feelings and attitudes of sorrow or shame. Forgiveness is for the victim, not the perpetrator, and is necessary to reestablish the victims (or victims families) perception of control, over themselves. So, forgiveness = peace. I also thing there is a "martyrdom" type of association with those who forgive others who have seriously wronged them ("I could never do that, she is a SAINT" mentality). Also, it seems like peoples perception of forgiveness includes the "I don't condone this, but I am releasing it." That too, seems odd.
For me, this just doesn't work on so many levels. First of all, I don't think it's a choice in whether to forgive or not. I think the choice lies in the persons ambition in moving toward to pursue their own well-being, not necessarily or specifically seeking a forgiveness attitude. I think forgiveness has to be organic, not a conscious decision to just "do it", like ordering healing attributes off of a menu.
As for forgiveness being for the victim, I don't understand that either. I have NEVER asked for forgiveness from anyone in order to make THEM feel better. It has always been due to my own insecurities and my own desires to repent on my sin. For me, forgiveness wouldn't equal peace. Forgiveness for me equals satisfaction. I will forgive someone when I am satisfied that they want that forgiveness. I won't bite the hand that feeds me, and if I feed someone else, I expect to not get bitten. It kinda goes along with the theory that you cannot help someone who doesn't want to be helped. I won't stroke anyone's ego in telling them they are worthy of mine, or God's forgiveness if they are not open to the idea. HOWEVER, I can say that if I had someone who I felt was truly sorrowful and void of a spiritual fulfillment that forgiveness could give them, I think I could offer that. I have to be touched spiritually and emotionally in order to offer that forgiveness. Forgiveness is powerful, for both parties, and to offer it's definition that it can and many times should be one sided seems unnatural. I cannot forgive anyone who wants nothing to do with my forgiveness.
I can, however just plainly wash my hands of them and cognitively decide that I am NOT responsible for their actions or feelings, and that I hold no value in their own perception of our interaction and how it has affected me. But to me, that's not forgiveness. That is therapeutically dealing with reality and being self-aware enough to know limitations in societal interactions. Kind of like Maslows hierarchy of needs. No one but me is responsible for achieving that top level of "self actualization" and I don't need to forgive someone in order to deal effectively. I can have anger, resentment towards that person, cause frankly they deserve it. We all don't have to have sun-shiny feelings towards each other. It's how you let it affect your life in OTHER relationships that allows you to be a survivor and self-actualize.
I hope this doesn't come off as cold. I am a very forgiving person by nature. I am compassionate to certain circumstances and a suck for a needy soul who craves enriching virtues. But for those who do not want to receive them, I am ok staying away and letting them know I have anger and I have NOT forgiven them. I don't think theres anything wrong with that! (not that I"m saying any of you think there is) :)
That being said, some people are psychiatrically sick, and I understand that. For those people, I feel compassion, not forgiveness if they have wronged me. There's where the whole "release of anger or hate" comes in. If someone is deserving of compassion due to a mental illness, I am capable of that, but I don't have to forgive what they've done because there is no resolution on my part in anger or resentment.