Lots of rants happen here. That's fine by me! I get to see a lot more posts by people about what's on their mind that way. :)

I can understand some disappointed when something unexpected comes up. I can understand expressing how you feel. But it sounds like he was demanding you get "permission," and when that got no where, he changed the wording just a bit, but saying a lot of the same thing. It doesn't sound to me by what you shared that you were slacking on any Mom duties, and you were willing to make things easier while you were out.

This scenario sounds incredibly frustrating!

I my mind, all that crap is classic abuser behavior, and it made me cringe to read it. I plan how my day should go everyday, and very often it doesn't go the way I planned. SO WHAT??? It's called flexibility, and it's healthy life coping strategy. So he couldn't do the yard work and run the errands he wanted, why is that stuff he can do any old time more important than you spending time with your gfs? It's not about his stupid plans, it's not about you forgetting to tell him (again, not a big deal in the big scheme of things), it's about him being punishing in his attempt to isolate and control you-he doesn't like you going out with your friends and he's going to try to make it uncomfortable for you to do it so you quit trying to do it.

That crap about you saying your apology the exact way he wants it said makes my skin crawl-lots of crazymaking going on in that conversation. He MEANT permission. And there is no discussion with an abuser-it's their way or pay the price. You can't even choose the words you want to come out of your mouth without being punished for it. That is nothing more than him trying to reestablish control because you did something without his permission.

The thing with your son is ridiculous. I don't even know what to say about that. Being proud of something, and bragging are different. I'm guessing your H has some internal issues with the muscles thing and that's what set him off about that. If your son had "bragged" about how great his dad is I bet there'd be no objection.

I hope you get out safely soon.

""""""""""""""""""""""Plans of doing his own thing, plans of working in the back yard and running here and there. Now he couldn't do them because he had to do my stuff.""""""""""""""""""""

YOUR stuff?

They're his children, too, right?

You were NOT in any kind of "wrong."
Family life can be chaotic.

And with an abuser. . . . .

it just becomes
HELLISH.


"""""""""""""""""""""""""""I'm not sure I can take it much longer.""""""""""""""""""


The sooner you begin
reaching out for the kind
of support that will help
you SAFELY remove yourself
and your children from under
the roof of abuse, the better.

Please take good care.

What they said!

That thing about parenting being "your" stuff is one of my huge bugbears. So many men who talk about "babysitting" their kids. Nope, babysitting is when it's someone else's kids. When it's your kids it's called "parenting", even if you do have dangly bits between your legs. (And yes, I KNOW "not all men" - there are some fine examples of parents of both genders on this board alone - but it is still ridiculously common, particularly from the men who are discussed on this board).

I also agree you were NOT in the wrong. Not in any significant way. Yes, in an ideal world you would have given him a heads up as soon as you got the text (you would NOT have asked for permission however), but being busy and letting something like that slip is no big deal. You are entitled to your own time, you are entitled to expect him to parent his children with you, which means sometimes taking responsibility for getting them to and from practice or preparing (yes, preparing, even though all you actually asked for was heating up) some food for them.

Abusers believe they own their families, like pets. They are entitled to control every aspect of the lives of anyone in their families. And one way to ensure that they do is to isolate their partner. This whole thing was all about control. Firstly, yes he expected you to ask permission (not just give him a heads up) before making the decision to go out (or indeed do anything at all that wasn't strictly what he has decided you should do). And part of the reason for this is so that next time a text like that comes in, you will think twice about even going - easier to just say no and not rock the boat. Isolation 101. Either way, he wins.

I really hope you can find your way out soon, for your sake and for the sake of your poor kids. Meanwhile, yes it was a rant but as can't said, you are perfectly welcome to rant whenever you need to, this is a safe place to rant. But what you are NOT welcome to do is call yourself (or your rants) "crazy". You are not crazy, the rant wasn't crazy - it was perfectly articulate and completely understandable.

Was this something in isolation, or is this a pattern?

My husband and I always run things by each other before making plans with others. I know I'd be a little put out if my DH just decided to go out for the night without asking for my "permission."

Maybe this is just a case of miscommunication? It doesn't seem that horrible, unless this was the last straw. Forgive me if I sound insensitive. I just don't see how this is abuse at this point...

Deliannem, no. Not really an isolated case. He always wants me to word things his way, especially apologies. They are never good enough unless worded his way.

I very seldom go out, and never without telling him about it. I wouldn't have been so upset if he would have accepted my original apology. I messed up and didn't tell him soon enough. And I admitted that to him and immediately apologized when I realized how upset he was.

I know it's small in comparison to a lot of things that go on in life but it's these subtle things he does that seem to try and control me.... "you will word things this way." And the whole idea he wanted me to ask "permission". He wasn't just using that word. He meant it like it sounds. Otherwise he wouldn't have compared me to my teenager.

And you guys are very correct... One of the first things that goes thru my mind is "it's easier to just not do these things". Him acting that way just makes it so not worth it.

Justaguest, I remember you. I remember your H, Mr. "God doesn't bestow him blessings because you haven't cleaned your grout with a toothbrush today". I know your H, I was married to him too. He's now my ex.

You said...." I know it's small in comparison to a lot of things that go on in life but it's these subtle things he does that seem to try and control me...."

Don't compare it, it's not small. It's constant, it's insidious, it's subtle enough to make you feel like you're crazy. It's horrific.

Please tell me, if you had "discussed" it with him (i.e asked for permission) how does that generally end up for you? Does this discussion generally end in compromise, or in your favor? I'm guessing he generally comes up with multiple lines of reasoning why you shouldn't do whatever is it you want to do, just switches from one line of logic to another until your head spins and you can't even think straight. Sometimes you just let it go so the conversation will just END. And if you can out-think him, or get him worried that this is actually a big enough deal that saying no might backfire, it still goes badly for you. You come home and he's complaining about all "your" stuff he had to do, or the kids "needed their mother" and you weren't there, or even stuff that is totally unrelated to you, like suddenly he's in a mood, supposedly about stuff at work, or what happened on the drive home, but he ends up becoming hypercritical of your cooking, or housework, or your kids. Am I off here?

My ex husband infantized me just like yours. That is not an equal partnership. That is abuse.

I am guess you walk on eggshells, try to do everything perfect all the time hoping you can avoid the infantizing, the criticism, hoping you can influence his mood. And even when he's in a good mood, you are waiting for the other shoe to drop, because some part of you KNOWS anything not going his way (and unfortunately life tailors itself to no individual, so there will always be something) because he is so rigid about EVERYTHING, is going to make him turn on a dime, and end up with him taking it out on you, with the control, and the criticism and treating you like a child.

I remember about 6ish at night, I'd start watch the door for him to come through it and see from his face what my night was going to be like. I remember between 5 and 6 running through the checklist in my mind of if everything was perfect, if there was anything he could find fault with that I might have forgotten.

Any of that sound familiar? Because that is how I picture things based on what you've said about your H, and what I felt experiencing it myself. It was hell. I don't minimize it anymore.

I better understand the situation now. Kind of like how my dad was with my mother...

Do you think he has narcissistic personality disorder?

What if you sat him down and calmly said that this is not the dynamics you want in your marriage? Have you tried that? Do you have kids?

I don't normally say anything like this. People who have known me on this board will probably say they have almost never seen me say this in all the years I've been here.

Ignore deliannem.

This is NOT small potatoes. This isn't just a "sit down and explain and all will be good" situation. You don't EVER need to tell someone what respect and autonomy and adulthood are. If you need to explain to someone what respecting you means, or tell them about how you are actually an adult with a right to make your own decisions - that conversation will achieve nothing. Any adult who doesn't already know and show those things, won't learn them because you ask them to.

Abuse is NOT a "miscommunication". Abuse is NOT sorted by sitting down and explaining to someone that being abused isn't what you wanted.

You deserve better. You deserve to be treated as an equal, a grownup. Yes, as I said before, it would have been better if you'd let him know as soon as you knew. But that's in the nature of slip ups, not major crimes. We all miss stuff, forget stuff - it's human nature. You made a little slip up - you did nothing wrong. Doing wrong, to me, means choosing a wrong path or totally not caring about your actions. You didn't choose not to tell him, you didn't choose to not care whether you told him or not - you just got caught up in other things and it slipped. In a healthy relationship, that wouldn't go beyond a sigh and a "wish you'd told me earlier, but ok".

You know how this is, you know. Own your truth and don't let anyone shake it.

I see "can't" already
pulled this out before
me, but I have something
to add, so:

"""""""""""""""""it's these subtle things he does that seem to try and control me.""""""""""""""""""


Your use of the word "seem to try"
is a serious underestimation ----
almost certainly based in an
effort to be able to survive your
life under the roof of abuse.

He isn't "seeming" or "trying."
He is flat out CONTROLLING
you. That's an abuser's goal,
mission, raison d'etre, end game.
And he's obviously successful,
because of his well-practiced,
offensive and obvious use of
long-term intimidation.

With all respect to DeliAnnem,

I would NOT suggest that you
"sit him down and calmly say"
that this is not the dynamics
you want in your marriage.

That technique might be
very and beautifully effective
in a marriage that operates
on a level playing field. It's
not going to be anywhere
close to effective (and
could well result in some
kind of escalation of
abuse), in an already
abusive relationship.
(I know. I tried. I tried
that many times, with
a total lack of success
in my then-marriage
with a [primarily]
emotional abuser,
now happily ---- an ex.)

Your best success will
follow a carefully planned
out strategy for leaving. . .
for you and your children.

If you're not there yet,
start carefully laying
out what you'll need
to be in place, for the
time when you ARE
ready.

Sending you hugs
and wishes for
better days.

p.s. ------

I had my reply
partially composed
and had to pause
for a bit before I
posted. So I only
just saw Livnd's
response #10.

As my reference to
the other poster's
response suggests,
I did not agree with
addressing this situation
as if it were an unfortunate
instance in an otherwise
relatively functional relationship.

And further, I totally agree
that abuse does NOT
arise because of problems
with communication.

Abuse arises, generally,
because of
EMOTIONAL INJURY,
typically suffered during
childhood or adolescence.

And abuse is not
characterized by a
one time or very
infrequent incident
of disrespect.

Abuse is characterized
by a PATTERN of
disrespect and
attempted control
by one person
over another,
which can be
done by using
a wide variety of
strategies and
techniques, some
more obvious than
others ----- but all
really serious ----
because their objective
is SUBJEGATION.

Everyone's experience
is unique to their situation.
But in amazing ways,
the experience of abuse
can be very similar for
many survivors, over
the course of many
incidents, many years
and many diverse scenarios.

I respect differences of
experience and opinions.

But if you were a client
of mine, I also would
strongly disagree. . .
in the STRONGEST
of terms. . . . that
what you described
in your original post
is neither abuse,
nor horrible.

Please take it seriously
and be CAREFUL in
your choice of words
and actions.

Can't's response was so accurate it is scary. Eggshells. That whole 5 pm...dad will be home soon, what's has to get done mentality. My kids are older so it's not as stressful as it used to be. (We aren't home in the evenings as much and not as many toys being played with) The dog was even conditioned to growl and bark when he heard my husband come home from work.

Deliammen, I do have children. We have tried discussing that this isn't what I had in mind for life. We've been to MC. (Twice, multiple sessions each time). The only thing accomplished by that... I have to listen to them. He doesn't because they aren't in authority over him. Counseling just seems to bring out the the worst in him (after the session of course). He would never admit these things to the counselor. He acts compliant in the sessions.
I was told by one of the counselors that my husband isn't really controlling because he didn't tell me what color to paint the house or what to wear. Well. Those aren't the things that are important to my husband.

Narcissism? I don't know. I am certain there is some personality/social disorder at work in him. I can't figure out which one and know it won't happen without a professional. I have a friend with training (not counseling but law enforcement character profiling type work) who swears there is narcissism with my husband. He seems to have a more humble Christian personality. Although, I have had concerns...sometimes...he seems to have a cult mentality. He wants to start a drug rehab. But he wants it run absolutely his way. So much so, he's devoted the last 10 yrs to creating this ministry but can not find the personnel support he needs to make it work. They all quit because they don't like his ideology. My friend assures me husband doesn't have the charisma needed to actually create a cult.

I know that's a lot. Probably doesn't make sense. Just more of me in a nutshell. :-)

Well, I certainly got served...

Anyway, if all the people around your husband seem to get his "number" and leave his ministry, then my next question to you would be, why have you tolerated this behavior so far? Will there be a line in the sand he'll have to cross before you say you've had enough?

How does he treat the children?

He expects to run our house close to a boot camp. Up and ready by a certain time ready for inspection. Dressed to shoes. Room cleaned. Teeth brushed and inspected. A workout done. A devotion done. Repeat at bedtime. We "compromise" and don't run things as strict as he wants but stricter than I want. Until he's had enough and suddenly we are strictly enforcing all these rules.

He does things like randomly unplugging the internet. (Even without discussing it with me) as punishment for non compliance with his rules for all of us. They aren't allowed friends over or over to friends house without his permission....these things cost points which are earned by being compliant with his rules. Point amount determined by him. Adjusted by him whenever he wants. If the kids eat at a friends house that cost them points. Etc.

People leave his ministry because they don't agree with his theology on dealing with addicts. They don't realize that's how he expects to run every aspect of his life. They (for the most part) see him as and upstanding question man but they don't agree with his methods.

My plan is to last as long as I can. I know most here don't agree with it. But I am too afraid to share custody with him.

Here's the link to my first post here it may give your more info, if you really want to know: Http://www.dailystrength.org/c/Physical_Emotional_Abuse/forum/19970025-how-do-i-know-if/page-3