i'm quite a few years down this particular trail of tears and --when i let myself climb this slippery slope-- the times i was accused of abuse are among the places i wish i could have do-overs. now i find myself wishing i had treated them as opportunities to make amends, aka fixing what is broken in the relationship. i remain unapologetic about making them do badly done chores over again, but can we talk about what broke during my efforts to teach you work ethics? an outside perspective --such as a family therapist's-- might help a bunch.

butta, butta, butttttttaaaa. . .

that "where did i go wrong" slope is a slippery slope, indeed.

rocking you gently and crying with you over the devastation. . .
that part hasn't gotten any easier for me.

Thank you so much arfie...hugs

Welcome to this forum! Estrangement is a huge problem in the USA and UK. Learning to cope and gain new perspective is a good goal. I like to suggest parents start with the book, Done with the Crying book.

It’s hurtful what your EDs said (estranged daughters). I can understand them wanting to not be overly protected during the pandemic if they were already adults. They wanted to make their own decisions just like we did at their age. Assuming they are adults. The pandemic has created a big divide in families and it’s not always this or that. One side feels more scared and the other feels like not being scared. I’ve met some parents whose adult children were mad that the parents were “not taking it seriously” and the opposite.

This is an issue that possibly might be worked out if they were adults when you went into over protective mode and if these daughters are rational and reasonable. As in logical and sharing information with you but not if they were being abusive, mean, cruel, demeaning you.

The abuse in childhood thing is a common complaint and sometimes very crushing to parents. Parents feel they were living and nurturing and the adult children feel it was abuse. This is something we parents have to really examine from our point of view and theirs and find a way to hang on to the truth.

This no contact or silent treatment is abuse. It’s a control tactic. Maybe your EDs came to you and talked gently and kindly? Or did they speak with cruelty and totally make things up regarding the abuse?

I’m a long time estranged parent of two EDs. They’ve been in and out of my life and are cruel and mean to me. I’m working on my healing and trying to help other hurting parents. Please be wary of the myth of the amends letter nonsense unless you have something to apologize for. And don’t write anything until you do some reading and thinking. I can recommend some good books about apologies. Not all estrangement fits into the myth of parents needing to grovel and apologize. Don’t grovel or appease abusers. Estrangement is often abuse in this day and age! Take care of yourself first and foremost and start by reading Done with the Crying. Think about things, do the exercises after each chapter. Consider this as your healing not trying to change your adult children. We can’t change other people.

Come back often. Ask questions, share responses with others on here. We all need each other!

PS: Oh, the labels of toxic and narcissist are part of the estrangement playbook, most estranged parents have been labeled some of this hurtful stuff. Seriously these adult children all seem to say the same labels, all any Boomers are narcissists, don’t you know? Sheesh.

hasty - Thank you so much for your wisdom and support... hugs

I've been on both sides...being an estranged daughter to my Mom and stepfather, and as a Mom, with my son as a single parent...he's 27 with aspergers and I'm 70...no involvement with father, and I've got no family.

My birth family was *ucked up, I was baby and peace maker, went silent for 1 year, it was Hard on me, and no doubt them too. I was in my 20's with '''broken record syndrome complaints and blamed them for Everything...alcoholism both parents.

What I've come to understand over the years is that parents can't give what they were never given/learned from 'their parents' and that We Are All Human and We All Make Mistakes. Learning this lead me to forgiveness of my parents...they were both hurting people so they drank.

As for my son and I, well I was a helicopter mom until about 1 year ago...I Finally Gave Up trying to be his safety net...now I don't give him advice, tell him what to do, my opinion...nothing unless I ask him if he wants input...it's helped to mend our relationship.

I told him I'm Giving Up, I loved him, but it's more important to me to be able to be in the same room with him without dread, frustration, arguments...why, I know my time is limited on this earth and I want to spend my time with him if it's only in the same room with him on his computer and me on my computer.

I hold him accountable for his behavior, stopped enabling him, stopped rushing to his aid so, yes he will fall, and I've told him this too....I love you, but I'm not going to run to your becon call to 'save you'....you will live your life the way you want and deal with consequences...he's over weight by about 125 lbs, has had 3 blood clots in both legs and one in his lung...me cancer and I have a kidney that's only working at 24% so I have to think about my own mental and physical health First.

So I suggest you think about creating a life for yourself, tell your kids you are willing to go to therapy with them if they want, and let them fall with Your Love, and Guidance When Asked For...

DON'T Be Sorry or beat yourself up as you were doing the best you could when they were growing up...you put clothing on their back, food in their belly, medical care, school etc...ALOT of kids would Love to have parents to do those 4 things!

Mistakes Are Learning Lessons....listen and try to hear beyond the pain you are feeling as they are trying to make their own way in a very challenging world and Mom Will Always Love Them No Matter What....they will get that when they become Mothers....it's the hardest and most thankless and Blessed job in the world!

Hugs to you and Peace and Healing <3

Thank you sweet miro, hugs and all peace

Just be careful about therapy with your EC. Some therapists automatically blame all parents and allow sessions to be a beat down on the parents. Any therapist who has been seeing your daughters is therapeutically aligned with them, not you. And unfortunately, many low skilled therapists are pushing estrangement as the answer instead of teaching coping skills and how to set internal boundaries for oneself. The way your daughter decided to tell you what you did wrong as a parent might or might not be part of the blame the parents playbook. This is typical and common so I mentioned it.

None of us are perfect as human beings. Does it have to be estrangement as the answer and a list of parental faults though? Who benefits from this?

If you need help, a good therapist who understands family dynamics and doesn’t automatically blame the parents can be a help to us individually. By yourself first. I’ve heard way too many parents go to a therapy session with their kids only to find it’s an hour of all the parents faults and being demeaned. Even the parents being yelled at!

This poor family therapy happened to us and the therapist had no idea about personality disorders so totally allowed the parental beat down. It made us more angry and depressed. Then we individually had excellent therapy and it changed our lives.

We have to own what is our to own but we don’t have to take abuse if that is what is going on.

I too was estranged from my parents as my daughter is me even though I did the opposite of what they did. Kids these days have a different definition of. Abuse. I guess if they got the switch or belt like I did they'd really think it was abuse. Quite frankly I never had to spank my daughter but maybe she needed it!

hasty - So after I responded to your original post, I spent time with eldest daughter who had an emotional overreact to something I said, and asked me if I'd ever considered that I might be a narcissist.
Just wow. Right after you sent the p.s.
Thanks so much re: the info about therapists. Already I'd suspected my youngest had been encouraged by hers to believe she'd been abused and now I believe it's likely she also sent her down the path of estrangement. Also suspect the therapist is very young and newly licensed (she accepts cash only, whatever someone can pay).
Your advice comes just in time - following my daughter's reactivity I invited her to my next therapy appointment and she had difficulty formulating a response, ending with, 'Maybe, I'll think about it.' So interesting.... any thoughts on that??

TheChickenChronicles - Definitely a different definition of abuse. I believe they are calling it 'victim syndrome. '

The thing is narcissists are the last people to know that they are a narcissist. Everyone else knows it long before they do.

My advice at this point is to leave it alone. Don't react, don't push. She will offer to attend your therapist appointment if she really wants to. Try not to overly text or call either of your daughters. In other words, just stop contacting them and let some time go by before you respond to texts or phone calls. Break the pattern. Let some silence go by where you work on your healing and not being upset all the time as this stuff tends to make us feel.

I don't know how one responds to the question of we might be a narcissist because it is so critical and cruel of a question. Honestly, I think it is pretty narcissistic to tell someone you think they are a narcissist. Kinda cruel, kinda mean.

Because if she really knows about this disorder, then she would know the fallacy of saying that to a true narcissist. Her therapist cannot diagnose you if she has not met you and has not done a personality assessment. It is unethical for someone to diagnose this without doing a mental health disorders assessment with the person's consent.

I guess I would say, well my therapist has not diagnosed me with this personality disorder -- or --- my therapist says I do not fit into this personality disorder.

Because true narcissism is a personality disorder. People can have some narcissistic traits but not fit into the actual diagnosis of the personality disorder.

It has become slang and most people have no clue.

Google on the Mayo Clinic website "Narcissistic Personality Disorder."

If you read this and have self insight and think it might fit, talk to your therapist.

A YouTube video that is excellent on explaining narcissism is Dr. Ramani. I think she even has one titled something about narcissistic kids.

Not everyone on here that responds is an estranged parent. It still helps to consider what they say but remember it might not fit your situation. Take what works and leave the rest. (Some would say this is a narcissistic comment of mine, LOL.)

Thank you again for the wisdom and suggestions hasty. I will place some distance, and hope that helps. And yes I will definitely bring up the narcissism piece to my therapist (I did read the diagnoses info and it does look like most people probably have 1-5 traits, but not all that would actually receive a diagnosis!). Take care.

I went back and looked at the two lists of behaviors or thinking styles. Most people may have one or two of these but I think 5 is heading towards problematic. The more dysfunctional our thinking and behavior patterns are, the more conflict laden our relationships are. I admire you for being willing to talk to your therapist about this. It is not easy being honest with ourselves about our own flaws while staying out of beating ourselves up. I admire you for bringing up this topic and seeking guidance for yourself.