Infidelity Support Group
Any relationship in which one partner engages willfully in sexual relations with another outside of the partnership is considered to have experienced infidelity. This breach of trust is often traumatizing for the faithful partner as well as the relationship, and support is often needed to heal emotionally and to decide whether or not the relationship should continue after...
Before I get into this, I'll remind you all that I'm still not getting notices of responses to threads I'm following in this support forum. I do on the member groups, but not here. Reported this to DS some days ago, but no fix. Don't know if everyone is having this problem or a select few. But just so you know why I may not respond quickly as I'd like. I have to remember to come here and check.
Okay, with that out of the way, Gabi had an incident today that broke no contact rules. For those not around when I had my dday, May 11, 2011, Gabi had trouble totally breaking no contact. Not that she ever initiated anything, but she had trouble not responding when the OM did. For the first 3-4 weeks after dday, he kept texting her. I told her simply don't respond, but she couldn't seem to bring herself to just ignore him.
It finally ended when I put a block on her phone to his number, so it would not go through again. He tried a few other things after that, stalking, leaving notes, but she didn't "respond" in any type of conversation. My last email to him was in August of 2011 when he was stalking her, and since then she'd had little to no contact with him. Just some chance bumping into each other that never resulted in anything more than eyes meeting.
Bottom line, she had trouble not responding to him up until he was cut off sometime in June of 2011, and so she has been basically untested since then.
Today, the test returned. After months of no contact, he calls her phone today, wanting to talk. Apparently he got a new number that isn't blocked, or called from a different phone to get through.
Now, some of her problems in not responding in the early days I chalked up to being in the fog, too emotionally connected, she felt guilty and sorry for what she did to him. But now, over 21 months later, when she's declared she feels no love for him, the affair fog is a distant mist of the past, and with all she's learned and confirmed about no contact, all we'd discussed on what to do if and when he makes contact again, that by now that was something I didn't have to worry about anymore as being a significant problem.
But I'm sad to say she failed the test. When she realized it was "Bubba" on the phone (my nickname for him), instead of doing what we'd discussed she should do, when he asked her if he could talk a moment, she said yes. He asked her not to tell me about his call, and she said she wouldn't even though she knew she would, lying to him. While I'm glad it was a lie and she told me at the first opportunity (she has been near perfect on transparency since the second question on dday), it gave him the impression that she was willing to hide things from me. Even though false, it certainly sent a signal to him that she was open to keeping secrets from me, which would be an encouragement to him.
Part of her motivation at that moment was to let him know she was healing, what happened was bad, and our marriage was strong, in the hopes he'd be able to move on. We both figured since his marriage fell apart 2 years after his wife cheated on him, he may have been hoping ours was too, and he could swoop in to hold her hand. Unfortunately for him, our marriage has never been stronger.
Problem is, by agreeing to keep a secret, it sent the opposite message to him, that not all is well and good. Even though he told her he only wanted this one phone call and promised never to contact her again, I fully expect him to call her again, or text her, now that he knows he can. I seriously doubt this is over.
I have several possible responses. First, I have no fear things are getting ready to fire back up with them. If her responses to him are not changed, in time it could go there. And I did have some shortness of breath and heart palpitations similar to what I experienced in the first couple of weeks after dday. Except it didn't last for days, but about an hour on and off. But short of some major deception, I'm not believing this will lead to a renewal of the affair. She wouldn't have shared this with me if it was going that direction.
So here are the options I've thought of on how to respond to this. See which one you think is best, or offer one I haven't thought of (and no, I'm not kicking her to the curb, we're no where near that line):
1: Block his new number. That may only be a temp fix now that he may have caught on that a different number will get him in.
2. Gabi changes phone numbers. Doable, but a big hassle since she has a lot of clients that would have to be notified, and if she had new signs made on her car with the new number, the OM would easily be able to get it the next time he saw her car, which is easy since one of her clients is on his block. So she'd have to not use the signs to keep it "secret."
3. Since he thinks she agreed to not tell me, I've considered sending him an email simply saying, "She tells me everything." It might keep him away for some more months, but not sure it would solve anything.
4. Start sending him threatening messages that make me sound mentally unbalanced and dangerous, to scare him away.
5. Despite the above ideas, I'm leaning toward a variation of the following. Mainly because the above focuses on fixing *him,* but what needs to happen is for Gabi to overcome her impulse to respond positively when people want her to do something. She needs to get used to saying no. She seems to have no problem telling me that at times. To that end...
6. Next time he calls, she'd be prepared by practicing to say what our priest suggested today, "I told my husband about your last call and I'll tell him about this one. Don't call me again. Bye."
7. Though part of me says this may not be a good idea, email Bubba and tell him to call my W as often as he wants. So she'll get plenty of practice at turning him down and not engaging him in conversation. A little of that rejection and he should stop of his own accord.
She also set up a meeting for counseling at a local clinic, to work on figuring out why she has little to no backbone in turning men down in these situations. It may become important the next time opportunity presents itself to her, to avoiding another affair.
It is clear to me she has to work though this and deal with this character flaw to ensure this doesn't happen again. She has promised to not engage him in conversation again, ever. I believe she wants to, but I thought she knew better before. So I'm naturally a little skeptical she will do it. I know she *can* do it. But she needs to get better at being rude when she needs to be, when it is important to be.
Thoughts?
Okay, with that out of the way, Gabi had an incident today that broke no contact rules. For those not around when I had my dday, May 11, 2011, Gabi had trouble totally breaking no contact. Not that she ever initiated anything, but she had trouble not responding when the OM did. For the first 3-4 weeks after dday, he kept texting her. I told her simply don't respond, but she couldn't seem to bring herself to just ignore him.
It finally ended when I put a block on her phone to his number, so it would not go through again. He tried a few other things after that, stalking, leaving notes, but she didn't "respond" in any type of conversation. My last email to him was in August of 2011 when he was stalking her, and since then she'd had little to no contact with him. Just some chance bumping into each other that never resulted in anything more than eyes meeting.
Bottom line, she had trouble not responding to him up until he was cut off sometime in June of 2011, and so she has been basically untested since then.
Today, the test returned. After months of no contact, he calls her phone today, wanting to talk. Apparently he got a new number that isn't blocked, or called from a different phone to get through.
Now, some of her problems in not responding in the early days I chalked up to being in the fog, too emotionally connected, she felt guilty and sorry for what she did to him. But now, over 21 months later, when she's declared she feels no love for him, the affair fog is a distant mist of the past, and with all she's learned and confirmed about no contact, all we'd discussed on what to do if and when he makes contact again, that by now that was something I didn't have to worry about anymore as being a significant problem.
But I'm sad to say she failed the test. When she realized it was "Bubba" on the phone (my nickname for him), instead of doing what we'd discussed she should do, when he asked her if he could talk a moment, she said yes. He asked her not to tell me about his call, and she said she wouldn't even though she knew she would, lying to him. While I'm glad it was a lie and she told me at the first opportunity (she has been near perfect on transparency since the second question on dday), it gave him the impression that she was willing to hide things from me. Even though false, it certainly sent a signal to him that she was open to keeping secrets from me, which would be an encouragement to him.
Part of her motivation at that moment was to let him know she was healing, what happened was bad, and our marriage was strong, in the hopes he'd be able to move on. We both figured since his marriage fell apart 2 years after his wife cheated on him, he may have been hoping ours was too, and he could swoop in to hold her hand. Unfortunately for him, our marriage has never been stronger.
Problem is, by agreeing to keep a secret, it sent the opposite message to him, that not all is well and good. Even though he told her he only wanted this one phone call and promised never to contact her again, I fully expect him to call her again, or text her, now that he knows he can. I seriously doubt this is over.
I have several possible responses. First, I have no fear things are getting ready to fire back up with them. If her responses to him are not changed, in time it could go there. And I did have some shortness of breath and heart palpitations similar to what I experienced in the first couple of weeks after dday. Except it didn't last for days, but about an hour on and off. But short of some major deception, I'm not believing this will lead to a renewal of the affair. She wouldn't have shared this with me if it was going that direction.
So here are the options I've thought of on how to respond to this. See which one you think is best, or offer one I haven't thought of (and no, I'm not kicking her to the curb, we're no where near that line):
1: Block his new number. That may only be a temp fix now that he may have caught on that a different number will get him in.
2. Gabi changes phone numbers. Doable, but a big hassle since she has a lot of clients that would have to be notified, and if she had new signs made on her car with the new number, the OM would easily be able to get it the next time he saw her car, which is easy since one of her clients is on his block. So she'd have to not use the signs to keep it "secret."
3. Since he thinks she agreed to not tell me, I've considered sending him an email simply saying, "She tells me everything." It might keep him away for some more months, but not sure it would solve anything.
4. Start sending him threatening messages that make me sound mentally unbalanced and dangerous, to scare him away.
5. Despite the above ideas, I'm leaning toward a variation of the following. Mainly because the above focuses on fixing *him,* but what needs to happen is for Gabi to overcome her impulse to respond positively when people want her to do something. She needs to get used to saying no. She seems to have no problem telling me that at times. To that end...
6. Next time he calls, she'd be prepared by practicing to say what our priest suggested today, "I told my husband about your last call and I'll tell him about this one. Don't call me again. Bye."
7. Though part of me says this may not be a good idea, email Bubba and tell him to call my W as often as he wants. So she'll get plenty of practice at turning him down and not engaging him in conversation. A little of that rejection and he should stop of his own accord.
She also set up a meeting for counseling at a local clinic, to work on figuring out why she has little to no backbone in turning men down in these situations. It may become important the next time opportunity presents itself to her, to avoiding another affair.
It is clear to me she has to work though this and deal with this character flaw to ensure this doesn't happen again. She has promised to not engage him in conversation again, ever. I believe she wants to, but I thought she knew better before. So I'm naturally a little skeptical she will do it. I know she *can* do it. But she needs to get better at being rude when she needs to be, when it is important to be.
Thoughts?
Wow, when you put it that way? Geesh!
But I must admit, there were times, I felt similar to that, in a way! It reminds me of: my partner was a very closed book, and by nature doesn't share as much, say as I do. I'd consider myself to be a very "open book". Who knows, perhaps that's how we balance either other. I may say too much, he says too little, in my opinion. A long time ago, I theorized that I believed that most cheaters were more of a "closed book", because you almost have to be, to get way with it! lol
So, much is true, with those of us rebuilding! We basically have the choice to decide whether we think we can be content and happy enough with the end result, if we stay together. The main issue for all of us will land up being:
Whatever weakness they had (Gabi having a hard time saying "no", and my H having a hard time opening up, in general),
so whatever weaknesses our partner had, will still lie dormant within them. People tend to be more creatures of habit, especially after a certain age of say above 40.
And that we are probably aware that certain weakness can and will arise, and we probably have faith in ourselves to judge our partner, next time things present themselves. And we have faith, that they'll do better. But I don't think we'll ever really know, until it happens.
And yet they can change, somewhat, with a lot of hard work, but sometimes, I think they tend to revert to their basic personality, which has been pretty dang well developed by now! I mean, miracles do happen, and people do change somewhat, but when all the dust has settled, and say a decade goes by, I wonder "what if" then? It makes ya think, for me anyways!
I'm not aware of putting her down. I agree, the apron comment that I made once was going farther than I needed to make a point. I didn't need to add that part in and am guilty as charged. But that wasn't done in a spirit of putting her down, it was just what is. She's that way about it too.
So I asked her tonight, just in case I'm blind about it, whether she honestly felt I had put her down on the forums. She said no, not even about the apron comment. She was more appalled at the images everyone else was conjuring up about it than anything.
Early on Bondegal commented to me whether it was a good idea having my CS on the board, because it might cause me to hold back my honest feelings and comments about her. I didn't think it would. True, I don't sugar coat what went wrong. I don't fail to praise her for what she's done right...and she's done a lot right. I consider her a model CS and she has saved our marriage by her courage and bravery.
And one of the ways she has done that is by not shrinking from addressing her issues. Like in this case, she realized even as she was talking to him that it shouldn't be happening, it was the wrong choice. She told me about it as soon as she had a chance. It revealed to both of us she has an issue in being assertive, to do what is right when someone is pushing her to do the opposite. She sought out counseling to help deal with this issue. She identified the problem, and is working on addressing it.
If she ran from it, swept it under a rug like a lot of CSs, then I'd be more fearful. Naturally I was disappointed that instead of planning on cutting off any contact if and when it happened, she planned on what to say to him if she got the opportunity. I didn't know she'd practiced in her mind what topics to engage him with instead of practicing disengaging him as quickly as possible like everyone had told her to do: me, our priest, our therapist, pretty much every affair book we've read, etc.
I know identifying problems isn't ego boasting. I know most people like to hide from that (we see examples of that all the time around here). But if you don't identify what went wrong, you can't fix it. You can't find the "medicine" that will heal it. Do I have a fear she'll get sick and "die" on me? Yes. The answer to getting cancer isn't to ignore it and act like it isn't important because it is bad news and not ego boasting, because then it will get worse. You admit you have cancer, you're an alcoholic, you're a sex addict, you're a (fill in the blank) first, then you can work on it.
Same with me. I was selfish. I rarely helped with housework. Rarely cooked. Never spent a lot of time with Gabi other than special occasions. I didn't crave being around her like I should have and so communicated to her that other activities were more important to me than hanging with her. I didn't intentionally do that, didn't realize I was communicating that, but I should have (it seems so obvious now.) I was content in my own world and had grown used to her being in hers. I should have never allowed it to reach that point even for a week, much less almost 20 years.
The A was a wake up call to me. I addressed those problems. I intentionally chose her over spending lots of time on other things. There are things she has addressed fearlessly, and this shows she still has the mindset to do so. I think the world of her for that.
I think that attitude of hers is why she's done so well at rebuilding. Why we are where we are. Because we've both not shied away from identifying our problems and working to correct them. We don't neglect what we're doing right, mind you, but we don't fear staring our faults in the face and saying, "Go ahead. Make my day."
It isn't ceaseless. To modify behavior takes work and practice or it simply won't happen. But if you practice, at some point it becomes natural and automatic. You don't think a piano player has to ceaselessly think to himself his whole career, "thumb on the C, middle finder on the E, pinky on the G....whoho! I did a C chord!" Learning it, that's what they had to do. But at some point the pianist just thinks about a C chord and his fingers know without thinking about it what to do.
How she responded to men didn't work. It resulted in an affair. What was natural for her failed our marriage. Not an abstract fear. It already happened. Our goal, both our goals, is to ensure it doesn't happen again. Having a hard time telling a guy no is going to make it more likely another affair is down the road.
If she was rebelling at this, getting frustrated, etc., you might have a point. But she *wants* to do this as much as I do. So I tell her from my perspective what has to happen to communicate to him "I don't want to talk to you anymore. Leave me alone."
If she fails to practice the right thing, then the chance of another affair is much more likely down the road. That's the reason so many CSs end up doing repeat affairs, because they fail to address these issues, fail to practice to do the right thing, so when it happens, they do the wrong thing instead.
Yes we are partners. And I'm thankful for that. If she practices it, however, at some point it will become the default response. She won't have to think about it. Which is the goal. It won't be a ceaseless effort. Only during the time it takes for her to retrain her mind in how she responds to people.
I'm a little baffled, because from all I've read and heard here and in books, this is what she should be doing to address her cheating issues. This is not me standing over her with a lightning bolt, ready to strike her down if she doesn't do what I want. This isn't her quaking in fear, doing something she is doing because she has to to keep me at bay. She is fully engaged in fixing this. I've really done little aside from my initial responses to the event at the time.
Until this thread was resurrected, I'd not thought about it for a while, actually. But I think some are thinking more is going on here than what really is. From all I know, this is a health response on both our ends.
To everybody else: Sometimes we have to give up worrying about the future and just step back and watch. I lost trust in my H in regard to infidelity issues a long time ago, but I find that I can still go on. The infidelity thing is something I have absolutely no control over. Either he will be faithful, or he won't be. At this point, it's really irrelevant. If I find he's broken my trust again, I will leave, period. But I'm not going to spend my life worrying about it. Most of you are younger than I am, and have a longer future to look at, and that's really what's scary about the whole thing--thinking about the years ahead. The more years, the scarier the prospect.