Infidelity Support Group
Any relationship in which one partner engages willfully in sexual relations with another outside of the partnership is considered to have experienced infidelity. This breach of trust is often traumatizing for the faithful partner as well as the relationship, and support is often needed to heal emotionally and to decide whether or not the relationship should continue after...
Before I get into this, I'll remind you all that I'm still not getting notices of responses to threads I'm following in this support forum. I do on the member groups, but not here. Reported this to DS some days ago, but no fix. Don't know if everyone is having this problem or a select few. But just so you know why I may not respond quickly as I'd like. I have to remember to come here and check.
Okay, with that out of the way, Gabi had an incident today that broke no contact rules. For those not around when I had my dday, May 11, 2011, Gabi had trouble totally breaking no contact. Not that she ever initiated anything, but she had trouble not responding when the OM did. For the first 3-4 weeks after dday, he kept texting her. I told her simply don't respond, but she couldn't seem to bring herself to just ignore him.
It finally ended when I put a block on her phone to his number, so it would not go through again. He tried a few other things after that, stalking, leaving notes, but she didn't "respond" in any type of conversation. My last email to him was in August of 2011 when he was stalking her, and since then she'd had little to no contact with him. Just some chance bumping into each other that never resulted in anything more than eyes meeting.
Bottom line, she had trouble not responding to him up until he was cut off sometime in June of 2011, and so she has been basically untested since then.
Today, the test returned. After months of no contact, he calls her phone today, wanting to talk. Apparently he got a new number that isn't blocked, or called from a different phone to get through.
Now, some of her problems in not responding in the early days I chalked up to being in the fog, too emotionally connected, she felt guilty and sorry for what she did to him. But now, over 21 months later, when she's declared she feels no love for him, the affair fog is a distant mist of the past, and with all she's learned and confirmed about no contact, all we'd discussed on what to do if and when he makes contact again, that by now that was something I didn't have to worry about anymore as being a significant problem.
But I'm sad to say she failed the test. When she realized it was "Bubba" on the phone (my nickname for him), instead of doing what we'd discussed she should do, when he asked her if he could talk a moment, she said yes. He asked her not to tell me about his call, and she said she wouldn't even though she knew she would, lying to him. While I'm glad it was a lie and she told me at the first opportunity (she has been near perfect on transparency since the second question on dday), it gave him the impression that she was willing to hide things from me. Even though false, it certainly sent a signal to him that she was open to keeping secrets from me, which would be an encouragement to him.
Part of her motivation at that moment was to let him know she was healing, what happened was bad, and our marriage was strong, in the hopes he'd be able to move on. We both figured since his marriage fell apart 2 years after his wife cheated on him, he may have been hoping ours was too, and he could swoop in to hold her hand. Unfortunately for him, our marriage has never been stronger.
Problem is, by agreeing to keep a secret, it sent the opposite message to him, that not all is well and good. Even though he told her he only wanted this one phone call and promised never to contact her again, I fully expect him to call her again, or text her, now that he knows he can. I seriously doubt this is over.
I have several possible responses. First, I have no fear things are getting ready to fire back up with them. If her responses to him are not changed, in time it could go there. And I did have some shortness of breath and heart palpitations similar to what I experienced in the first couple of weeks after dday. Except it didn't last for days, but about an hour on and off. But short of some major deception, I'm not believing this will lead to a renewal of the affair. She wouldn't have shared this with me if it was going that direction.
So here are the options I've thought of on how to respond to this. See which one you think is best, or offer one I haven't thought of (and no, I'm not kicking her to the curb, we're no where near that line):
1: Block his new number. That may only be a temp fix now that he may have caught on that a different number will get him in.
2. Gabi changes phone numbers. Doable, but a big hassle since she has a lot of clients that would have to be notified, and if she had new signs made on her car with the new number, the OM would easily be able to get it the next time he saw her car, which is easy since one of her clients is on his block. So she'd have to not use the signs to keep it "secret."
3. Since he thinks she agreed to not tell me, I've considered sending him an email simply saying, "She tells me everything." It might keep him away for some more months, but not sure it would solve anything.
4. Start sending him threatening messages that make me sound mentally unbalanced and dangerous, to scare him away.
5. Despite the above ideas, I'm leaning toward a variation of the following. Mainly because the above focuses on fixing *him,* but what needs to happen is for Gabi to overcome her impulse to respond positively when people want her to do something. She needs to get used to saying no. She seems to have no problem telling me that at times. To that end...
6. Next time he calls, she'd be prepared by practicing to say what our priest suggested today, "I told my husband about your last call and I'll tell him about this one. Don't call me again. Bye."
7. Though part of me says this may not be a good idea, email Bubba and tell him to call my W as often as he wants. So she'll get plenty of practice at turning him down and not engaging him in conversation. A little of that rejection and he should stop of his own accord.
She also set up a meeting for counseling at a local clinic, to work on figuring out why she has little to no backbone in turning men down in these situations. It may become important the next time opportunity presents itself to her, to avoiding another affair.
It is clear to me she has to work though this and deal with this character flaw to ensure this doesn't happen again. She has promised to not engage him in conversation again, ever. I believe she wants to, but I thought she knew better before. So I'm naturally a little skeptical she will do it. I know she *can* do it. But she needs to get better at being rude when she needs to be, when it is important to be.
Thoughts?
Okay, with that out of the way, Gabi had an incident today that broke no contact rules. For those not around when I had my dday, May 11, 2011, Gabi had trouble totally breaking no contact. Not that she ever initiated anything, but she had trouble not responding when the OM did. For the first 3-4 weeks after dday, he kept texting her. I told her simply don't respond, but she couldn't seem to bring herself to just ignore him.
It finally ended when I put a block on her phone to his number, so it would not go through again. He tried a few other things after that, stalking, leaving notes, but she didn't "respond" in any type of conversation. My last email to him was in August of 2011 when he was stalking her, and since then she'd had little to no contact with him. Just some chance bumping into each other that never resulted in anything more than eyes meeting.
Bottom line, she had trouble not responding to him up until he was cut off sometime in June of 2011, and so she has been basically untested since then.
Today, the test returned. After months of no contact, he calls her phone today, wanting to talk. Apparently he got a new number that isn't blocked, or called from a different phone to get through.
Now, some of her problems in not responding in the early days I chalked up to being in the fog, too emotionally connected, she felt guilty and sorry for what she did to him. But now, over 21 months later, when she's declared she feels no love for him, the affair fog is a distant mist of the past, and with all she's learned and confirmed about no contact, all we'd discussed on what to do if and when he makes contact again, that by now that was something I didn't have to worry about anymore as being a significant problem.
But I'm sad to say she failed the test. When she realized it was "Bubba" on the phone (my nickname for him), instead of doing what we'd discussed she should do, when he asked her if he could talk a moment, she said yes. He asked her not to tell me about his call, and she said she wouldn't even though she knew she would, lying to him. While I'm glad it was a lie and she told me at the first opportunity (she has been near perfect on transparency since the second question on dday), it gave him the impression that she was willing to hide things from me. Even though false, it certainly sent a signal to him that she was open to keeping secrets from me, which would be an encouragement to him.
Part of her motivation at that moment was to let him know she was healing, what happened was bad, and our marriage was strong, in the hopes he'd be able to move on. We both figured since his marriage fell apart 2 years after his wife cheated on him, he may have been hoping ours was too, and he could swoop in to hold her hand. Unfortunately for him, our marriage has never been stronger.
Problem is, by agreeing to keep a secret, it sent the opposite message to him, that not all is well and good. Even though he told her he only wanted this one phone call and promised never to contact her again, I fully expect him to call her again, or text her, now that he knows he can. I seriously doubt this is over.
I have several possible responses. First, I have no fear things are getting ready to fire back up with them. If her responses to him are not changed, in time it could go there. And I did have some shortness of breath and heart palpitations similar to what I experienced in the first couple of weeks after dday. Except it didn't last for days, but about an hour on and off. But short of some major deception, I'm not believing this will lead to a renewal of the affair. She wouldn't have shared this with me if it was going that direction.
So here are the options I've thought of on how to respond to this. See which one you think is best, or offer one I haven't thought of (and no, I'm not kicking her to the curb, we're no where near that line):
1: Block his new number. That may only be a temp fix now that he may have caught on that a different number will get him in.
2. Gabi changes phone numbers. Doable, but a big hassle since she has a lot of clients that would have to be notified, and if she had new signs made on her car with the new number, the OM would easily be able to get it the next time he saw her car, which is easy since one of her clients is on his block. So she'd have to not use the signs to keep it "secret."
3. Since he thinks she agreed to not tell me, I've considered sending him an email simply saying, "She tells me everything." It might keep him away for some more months, but not sure it would solve anything.
4. Start sending him threatening messages that make me sound mentally unbalanced and dangerous, to scare him away.
5. Despite the above ideas, I'm leaning toward a variation of the following. Mainly because the above focuses on fixing *him,* but what needs to happen is for Gabi to overcome her impulse to respond positively when people want her to do something. She needs to get used to saying no. She seems to have no problem telling me that at times. To that end...
6. Next time he calls, she'd be prepared by practicing to say what our priest suggested today, "I told my husband about your last call and I'll tell him about this one. Don't call me again. Bye."
7. Though part of me says this may not be a good idea, email Bubba and tell him to call my W as often as he wants. So she'll get plenty of practice at turning him down and not engaging him in conversation. A little of that rejection and he should stop of his own accord.
She also set up a meeting for counseling at a local clinic, to work on figuring out why she has little to no backbone in turning men down in these situations. It may become important the next time opportunity presents itself to her, to avoiding another affair.
It is clear to me she has to work though this and deal with this character flaw to ensure this doesn't happen again. She has promised to not engage him in conversation again, ever. I believe she wants to, but I thought she knew better before. So I'm naturally a little skeptical she will do it. I know she *can* do it. But she needs to get better at being rude when she needs to be, when it is important to be.
Thoughts?
"Once she has that concrete that she can build her walls up from - you won't have to worry and you will laugh at any jackass that tries to hit on her - cause u will know she can handle herself."
It gave me a picture of the goal. Not just concerning this OM, but any other man as well.
I am giving Cole tons of love and reassurance for sure, I am also making sure to show him by my actions and words that I am taking this very seriously and intend to focus my work on myself in this direction right now and that I am actively preparing myself to give OM a very very clear message if he attempts another contact or to send a message before that, like goingtobeok suggested if that is what we decide to do.
Thank you goingtobeok for all you said. Thanks for reminding me of the doors and windows concept. That creates a very clear picture.
First of all, let me say, I do believe the two of you will be fine, as you both have worked very hard to this point.
Secondly, it may well be a "blessing in disguise" that this did come up, because 12 sessions of counseling probably didn't cover it all, considering how involved your situation was with two men, not just one.
Umm....some have already said it, about your inability to say "no", to 2 men, and that is precisely what got you in trouble in the first place, and even kind of raised a red flag here recently.
Maybe keep in mind, that you don't have to be mean, or rude, but just speak from your heart. Stating something along the lines of: I know what we thought we had in the past was special, and that we bonded,...but now in hindsight, I realize it wasn't the true love, the true agape....and that I only have that with my husband. Sorry, but I will never ever risk anything like that again, as I'm that much wiser. I hurt my husband to the core, and he still loves me, and I will never ever do that again to him. So it's obvious, the past is the past, and over. Please accept that, and I wish you well, but will expect that you never contact me again, and let me live my life, as I should! No good can ever come out of your contacting me again. I do not wish to revisit it, nor walk down memory lane. My decision is final. I love my husband with all my heart. I will not be a hypocrite again, ever, as I will be true to myself, my husband, my family, and my Lord. So please, move on in peace and in Christ, and leave me alone. It truly is the best for all involved, and peace out!
No need to hear h is response, and the only reason I'd go into that much detail, as the above, is to provide him w/ closure, and then it's a done deal.
Now that a couple months have passed, did you guys send that email? What was the end result? Just curious!
Block his number for sure. But she needs to step up.
Thanks for responding here. You are right. It wasn't enough counseling. I am very happy I found this place that is next to free for me and my counselor is wonderful. They are putting me through a program called "This is my Life!" We have just begun, but I am excited about it.
We did not communicate with OM at all. I am working with the counselor to be sure I do the right thing if there is another attempt by him. Cole decided not to intervene. It has to come from me. If he ever attempts contact again it is up to me to close this window and seal it up for good. Build a wall over it too. :-) I appreciate the fact that it has to come from me. My counselor agrees.
It is true that we have worked very hard on ourselves in these 23 mos since Dday. We have come a long long ways, but it is a journey in which I believe you never actually arrive at any destination. You just keep striving forward, keep building, keep improving, keep working. The rewards have been wonderful in spite of the scars and the pain of the journey.
Did you see the announcement, blondegal, that Cole has finished the book about this journey? It will be published by May 11th, our 2 year Dday. He has created an accompanying website to go with the book which is up and running. It is: http://www.healinginfidelity.com/ We even have pics of ourselves on there under "meet the authors."
As humans, we are all works in progress. I see that Gabi has matured a lot and so have you, Cole. I was concerned earlier that you were being the father figure, writing a script for Gabi, but I think you both realize that she has to do it herself. And she CAN do it.
A lot of women, myself included, were raised to be "pleasers." We were trained to defer to men yet always find a way to say NO to them if they came on to us. The catch was that we couldn't actually say the word NO, which might offend them. This is very old-school, but it is a hard pattern to break, especially when we're caught off guard.
Continue to act in unity, and you will get through this.
"Part of her motivation at that moment was to let him know she was healing, what happened was bad, and our marriage was strong, in the hopes he'd be able to move on. "
I'd consider that a win. She held her own and dealt with it her way to get the result you two agreed upon. She was there in the moment having to deal with him and I think you have to trust that her intentions were good and she made the right choice - even though you may not agree with it.
Cole - I mean this with all respect - but it seems that what bothers you the most is the blow to the ego that he thought he had something on you. If I had to sum up your post in one sentence I'd say you are upset that you didn't have control over this situation.
" it gave him the impression that she was willing to hide things from me"
""by agreeing to keep a secret, it sent the opposite message to him"
" when he asked her if he could talk a moment, she said yes."
I'm a BS and totally get where you're coming from - but at some point we have to trust the CS to maneuver on their own without our control. If we want to rebuild a partnership, that is. If you want a wife that simply follows orders and doesn't think for herself or have her own emotions or reactions then that's something else.
I hope you two can get into therapy ASAP. Best of luck!
I agree with the others, this sounds more like a control issue than anything else at this point. You are trying to control him through her. You can't control him. Neither can she.
In the early days, OM texted me on 3 occasions. As you can imagine this was very very hard on Cole. That is why he blocked OM. He told me about it a week later in counseling. He NEEDS the peace of mind that contact is over. The call gave him flash backs to the horrible feelings he had in the beginning when he feared the contact would not end and what it could lead to. He NEEDS me to be strong and not "give in" like I always seem to do. I have yet to prove that I can stand strong and not give in when I am contacted. I have never attempted any contact on my end, I just seem unable to refuse to respond when I am contacted. As much as he appreciates my upfrontness and honesty, he needs to see me be strong and not respond and not give in, whether that is with the OM making contact or with another man behaving inappropriately in a way that would tempt me to respond in kind. (playful flirting for example)
This is why I am back in counseling, to work on this weakness within me which is fed by my need to be accepted and liked and the need for attention and affirmation. I get these things from Cole. Especially now with all the work we have done on our M, but I am very susceptible to it coming from any source. I am also needing to work on assertiveness as I have always lacked in that area.
Actually, there probably is something about the control aspect, in that he has a definite lack of control over something as important and threatening to him as my reactions to men and responses to contact by OM. He is depending on me to create safety and a comfort zone in these areas and that is my goal; to be able to give that to him.
I never scripted what Gabi should say, only gave examples of what the overall message should be. Maybe it is the difference between men and women, I don't know, but while what Gabi said was one thing, that's not the message he received. He heard, "She still wants me because she agreed to talk to me and keep it a secret from her husband." "She's willing to deceive him for me." "I still have a chance."
I know I can't control what the AP does. I know I can't control what Gabi does. But I do know what *message* Gabi needs to convey to him for him to realize, "It's over. She doesn't want me." And that's to communicate not just in words, but in attitude, "I don't want you." "I'm not in love with you." And rewarding him with the most extensive conversation they've had since she told him shortly after dday that I discovered the affair and it was over is not going to communicate that to him. Which means he'll be back at a later date to do this all over again.
IOW, I can't tell Gabi what to say and do, but I can tell her if her goal is to get him to stop, and I believe it is, that's the message she has to send him. In whatever manner, he has to get that she, from her heart, is saying "No, leave me alone." Whatever words and body language or attitude she uses to say that.
For me, this isn't so much about this AP. It's about the potential next one. If after all this time and struggle to get t where we are, no longer feeling love for him, she can't say, "No, I don't want to talk with you," (however that is worded,) What security do I have that when the next guy comes along that appeals to her pushes for what he wants, that she won't give in because she can't refuse?
I don't feel that Gabi is anywhere near running back to the AP, or wants him, or has any desire for him. I don't think he has a chance with her as it stands now. That isn't my concern. Rather, we are identifying an issue that is related to why she allowed herself to get sucked into affairs in the first place, and working to address them.
That is how healing works. You don't heal these things by sweeping them under rugs. You acknowledge what went right, but you don't ignore where adjustments need to be made.
Because Gabi gets this, understands it, and is willing to work on it, I feel more secure. I'll feel even securer when she successfully conveys that message. Because then I'll finally feel she at least has the ability to say "no" when it needs to be said. Up until this point, I've not seen her turn down a guy who is pushing her to do something. Whether that be reconnecting had making contact, or wanting sex. Her mode has been to avoid those situations, but you can't run all the time. At some point, to avoid another affair, she'll have to tell another guy, "Get lost. I won't cheat on my husband. I don't want anything more to do with you."
What I hear some of you suggesting is that I should sweep this problem under a rug and hope it doesn't happen again. It isn't that I feel a need to control Gabi. It is I feel a need for her to live up to her end of the promises and vows she's made to me, so I don't at some point down the road have to do what I would have to do...because I do control myself. I don't want to leave her. But if another affair happens, it will be much harder to avoid that choice.
That's what I fear, if anything. I don't want to lose her in the future because she can't communicate to a man, "NO!" and mean it.
I think you are looking at this wrong. She lacks a skill, saying "No" and meaning it backed up with actions that match the words. She won't learn how to say "no" with matching actions if she does not practice it until it becomes the automatic response instead of her natural response.
When you are trying to adjust an ingrained behavior pattern, you have to do the "right" thing until it becomes natural. Just like a piano player practices until they don't have to think about it. If she doesn't do this, her natural response when taken by surprise like this will always be to give the guy what they want. It isn't going to happen by magic.
Controlling her or the AP isn't so much my concern. It is that she doesn't string the AP along, making him think he still has a chance, and being able to avoid the next cute, attractive man who starts pushing her for sex, or whatever so that we can stay happily married.
I know this is hard to swallow for you and I am sure you have the same sleepless nights as we do thinking about this crap. And crap is what it is. We did not ask for this kind of life.
I have noticed a pattern with most cheaters. They think about the affair all day long too, We are not the only ones. However, they look at it a different way than we do. Maybe it was the flowers he bought her, maybe it was the romatic evening they had together, maybe it was the multiple orgasms, the wonderful sex.... Who knows. I can see it in my wifes eyes now. I know when she sees a white car similar to his, she is wondering if it is him. She is looking out of the corner of her eye. When she gets the anonymous calls, she gets nervous wondering if it is him and if she should answer in front of me. It is almost 5 1/2 years after D-Day and she has been swearing up and down that he is not in her life. She keeps feeding me the same bullshit for the last 5 years telling me that I am the most important thing in her life....blah blah blah. She had me thinking that our marriage was stronger than ever. She had me believing that all was well. That is what they want. Now I find that she is searching him and his family on Facebook every day. I am talking every day! And when I confronted her with this,she denies it and keeps lying.
And I get the same old bull$shit again, she is sorry for her actions. She feels awful, but yet has no explanation why she did it.
Well, I will tell you why. It's because she can't stop thinking about him. He did something to her head that I will never get back.
So no matter what they say to the Priest, therapist of doctor is complete BS. If they are not willing to break off ALL ties and take accountability for their actions it is because they are still thinking about the other person.
I don't think anyone is questioning what you're doing so much as HOW you're going about it. I don't know if you realize it or not, but you put Gabi down quite a bit and assign motive that may or may not be there. For example, the "fleshy apron" comment you made (and kept making) awhile ago. You seem to expect complete devotion and compliance to what you want her to do, but don't always protect her.
I've been on here just about as long as you guys have and its come across as you telling her what to do because you're the expert and she complies because that's what a good CS is supposed to do. The problem is that people will only go so long before they rebel and act out. I'm not saying this as a condemnation or judgement against you ..... more as a forewarning that this is what I (and apparently quite a few others) see and it might lead you to a place you don't want to be.
Your fear is going to create the exact situation you hope to avoid.