Infidelity Support Group
Any relationship in which one partner engages willfully in sexual relations with another outside of the partnership is considered to have experienced infidelity. This breach of trust is often traumatizing for the faithful partner as well as the relationship, and support is often needed to heal emotionally and to decide whether or not the relationship should continue after...
Before I get into this, I'll remind you all that I'm still not getting notices of responses to threads I'm following in this support forum. I do on the member groups, but not here. Reported this to DS some days ago, but no fix. Don't know if everyone is having this problem or a select few. But just so you know why I may not respond quickly as I'd like. I have to remember to come here and check.
Okay, with that out of the way, Gabi had an incident today that broke no contact rules. For those not around when I had my dday, May 11, 2011, Gabi had trouble totally breaking no contact. Not that she ever initiated anything, but she had trouble not responding when the OM did. For the first 3-4 weeks after dday, he kept texting her. I told her simply don't respond, but she couldn't seem to bring herself to just ignore him.
It finally ended when I put a block on her phone to his number, so it would not go through again. He tried a few other things after that, stalking, leaving notes, but she didn't "respond" in any type of conversation. My last email to him was in August of 2011 when he was stalking her, and since then she'd had little to no contact with him. Just some chance bumping into each other that never resulted in anything more than eyes meeting.
Bottom line, she had trouble not responding to him up until he was cut off sometime in June of 2011, and so she has been basically untested since then.
Today, the test returned. After months of no contact, he calls her phone today, wanting to talk. Apparently he got a new number that isn't blocked, or called from a different phone to get through.
Now, some of her problems in not responding in the early days I chalked up to being in the fog, too emotionally connected, she felt guilty and sorry for what she did to him. But now, over 21 months later, when she's declared she feels no love for him, the affair fog is a distant mist of the past, and with all she's learned and confirmed about no contact, all we'd discussed on what to do if and when he makes contact again, that by now that was something I didn't have to worry about anymore as being a significant problem.
But I'm sad to say she failed the test. When she realized it was "Bubba" on the phone (my nickname for him), instead of doing what we'd discussed she should do, when he asked her if he could talk a moment, she said yes. He asked her not to tell me about his call, and she said she wouldn't even though she knew she would, lying to him. While I'm glad it was a lie and she told me at the first opportunity (she has been near perfect on transparency since the second question on dday), it gave him the impression that she was willing to hide things from me. Even though false, it certainly sent a signal to him that she was open to keeping secrets from me, which would be an encouragement to him.
Part of her motivation at that moment was to let him know she was healing, what happened was bad, and our marriage was strong, in the hopes he'd be able to move on. We both figured since his marriage fell apart 2 years after his wife cheated on him, he may have been hoping ours was too, and he could swoop in to hold her hand. Unfortunately for him, our marriage has never been stronger.
Problem is, by agreeing to keep a secret, it sent the opposite message to him, that not all is well and good. Even though he told her he only wanted this one phone call and promised never to contact her again, I fully expect him to call her again, or text her, now that he knows he can. I seriously doubt this is over.
I have several possible responses. First, I have no fear things are getting ready to fire back up with them. If her responses to him are not changed, in time it could go there. And I did have some shortness of breath and heart palpitations similar to what I experienced in the first couple of weeks after dday. Except it didn't last for days, but about an hour on and off. But short of some major deception, I'm not believing this will lead to a renewal of the affair. She wouldn't have shared this with me if it was going that direction.
So here are the options I've thought of on how to respond to this. See which one you think is best, or offer one I haven't thought of (and no, I'm not kicking her to the curb, we're no where near that line):
1: Block his new number. That may only be a temp fix now that he may have caught on that a different number will get him in.
2. Gabi changes phone numbers. Doable, but a big hassle since she has a lot of clients that would have to be notified, and if she had new signs made on her car with the new number, the OM would easily be able to get it the next time he saw her car, which is easy since one of her clients is on his block. So she'd have to not use the signs to keep it "secret."
3. Since he thinks she agreed to not tell me, I've considered sending him an email simply saying, "She tells me everything." It might keep him away for some more months, but not sure it would solve anything.
4. Start sending him threatening messages that make me sound mentally unbalanced and dangerous, to scare him away.
5. Despite the above ideas, I'm leaning toward a variation of the following. Mainly because the above focuses on fixing *him,* but what needs to happen is for Gabi to overcome her impulse to respond positively when people want her to do something. She needs to get used to saying no. She seems to have no problem telling me that at times. To that end...
6. Next time he calls, she'd be prepared by practicing to say what our priest suggested today, "I told my husband about your last call and I'll tell him about this one. Don't call me again. Bye."
7. Though part of me says this may not be a good idea, email Bubba and tell him to call my W as often as he wants. So she'll get plenty of practice at turning him down and not engaging him in conversation. A little of that rejection and he should stop of his own accord.
She also set up a meeting for counseling at a local clinic, to work on figuring out why she has little to no backbone in turning men down in these situations. It may become important the next time opportunity presents itself to her, to avoiding another affair.
It is clear to me she has to work though this and deal with this character flaw to ensure this doesn't happen again. She has promised to not engage him in conversation again, ever. I believe she wants to, but I thought she knew better before. So I'm naturally a little skeptical she will do it. I know she *can* do it. But she needs to get better at being rude when she needs to be, when it is important to be.
Thoughts?
Okay, with that out of the way, Gabi had an incident today that broke no contact rules. For those not around when I had my dday, May 11, 2011, Gabi had trouble totally breaking no contact. Not that she ever initiated anything, but she had trouble not responding when the OM did. For the first 3-4 weeks after dday, he kept texting her. I told her simply don't respond, but she couldn't seem to bring herself to just ignore him.
It finally ended when I put a block on her phone to his number, so it would not go through again. He tried a few other things after that, stalking, leaving notes, but she didn't "respond" in any type of conversation. My last email to him was in August of 2011 when he was stalking her, and since then she'd had little to no contact with him. Just some chance bumping into each other that never resulted in anything more than eyes meeting.
Bottom line, she had trouble not responding to him up until he was cut off sometime in June of 2011, and so she has been basically untested since then.
Today, the test returned. After months of no contact, he calls her phone today, wanting to talk. Apparently he got a new number that isn't blocked, or called from a different phone to get through.
Now, some of her problems in not responding in the early days I chalked up to being in the fog, too emotionally connected, she felt guilty and sorry for what she did to him. But now, over 21 months later, when she's declared she feels no love for him, the affair fog is a distant mist of the past, and with all she's learned and confirmed about no contact, all we'd discussed on what to do if and when he makes contact again, that by now that was something I didn't have to worry about anymore as being a significant problem.
But I'm sad to say she failed the test. When she realized it was "Bubba" on the phone (my nickname for him), instead of doing what we'd discussed she should do, when he asked her if he could talk a moment, she said yes. He asked her not to tell me about his call, and she said she wouldn't even though she knew she would, lying to him. While I'm glad it was a lie and she told me at the first opportunity (she has been near perfect on transparency since the second question on dday), it gave him the impression that she was willing to hide things from me. Even though false, it certainly sent a signal to him that she was open to keeping secrets from me, which would be an encouragement to him.
Part of her motivation at that moment was to let him know she was healing, what happened was bad, and our marriage was strong, in the hopes he'd be able to move on. We both figured since his marriage fell apart 2 years after his wife cheated on him, he may have been hoping ours was too, and he could swoop in to hold her hand. Unfortunately for him, our marriage has never been stronger.
Problem is, by agreeing to keep a secret, it sent the opposite message to him, that not all is well and good. Even though he told her he only wanted this one phone call and promised never to contact her again, I fully expect him to call her again, or text her, now that he knows he can. I seriously doubt this is over.
I have several possible responses. First, I have no fear things are getting ready to fire back up with them. If her responses to him are not changed, in time it could go there. And I did have some shortness of breath and heart palpitations similar to what I experienced in the first couple of weeks after dday. Except it didn't last for days, but about an hour on and off. But short of some major deception, I'm not believing this will lead to a renewal of the affair. She wouldn't have shared this with me if it was going that direction.
So here are the options I've thought of on how to respond to this. See which one you think is best, or offer one I haven't thought of (and no, I'm not kicking her to the curb, we're no where near that line):
1: Block his new number. That may only be a temp fix now that he may have caught on that a different number will get him in.
2. Gabi changes phone numbers. Doable, but a big hassle since she has a lot of clients that would have to be notified, and if she had new signs made on her car with the new number, the OM would easily be able to get it the next time he saw her car, which is easy since one of her clients is on his block. So she'd have to not use the signs to keep it "secret."
3. Since he thinks she agreed to not tell me, I've considered sending him an email simply saying, "She tells me everything." It might keep him away for some more months, but not sure it would solve anything.
4. Start sending him threatening messages that make me sound mentally unbalanced and dangerous, to scare him away.
5. Despite the above ideas, I'm leaning toward a variation of the following. Mainly because the above focuses on fixing *him,* but what needs to happen is for Gabi to overcome her impulse to respond positively when people want her to do something. She needs to get used to saying no. She seems to have no problem telling me that at times. To that end...
6. Next time he calls, she'd be prepared by practicing to say what our priest suggested today, "I told my husband about your last call and I'll tell him about this one. Don't call me again. Bye."
7. Though part of me says this may not be a good idea, email Bubba and tell him to call my W as often as he wants. So she'll get plenty of practice at turning him down and not engaging him in conversation. A little of that rejection and he should stop of his own accord.
She also set up a meeting for counseling at a local clinic, to work on figuring out why she has little to no backbone in turning men down in these situations. It may become important the next time opportunity presents itself to her, to avoiding another affair.
It is clear to me she has to work though this and deal with this character flaw to ensure this doesn't happen again. She has promised to not engage him in conversation again, ever. I believe she wants to, but I thought she knew better before. So I'm naturally a little skeptical she will do it. I know she *can* do it. But she needs to get better at being rude when she needs to be, when it is important to be.
Thoughts?
You can't spend your entire marriage being the marriage police. She either gets the NC rule or she doesn't. Since the both of you are sincerely trying to rebuild than you've decided to trust her. If she continues to break that trust you have a different problem on your hands.
She has already shown once that she can cheat and the only real preventative from that happening again is HER removing herself from situations where she gets on the slippery slope. You enforcing the rules won't get the job done. Its gotta come from her.
My husband and I had a lot of "what if" scenarios we talked about so that I would feel more comfortable knowing he would understand what I expected of him if the OW contacted him. That said, there was never any proof that he'd actually do it until Huz received a text from OW (or someone pretending to be her - this was never proven) about a month ago. He flipped out. He was so angry. And he brought it to me to show me, but not before he had responded to the message, which left me disheartened.
In the end, I accepted that even though he didn't handle it exactly how I wanted or how we had discussed he should, he DID bring it to me and that was a step in the right direction. For us, it was a chance to reiterate and clarify expectations.
I think taking a *team* stance (via email or phone) where you and Gabbi both get to tell the guy to back off would be appropriate. How you handle this really depends on how you guys would best like to deal with it.
I would suggest sending an email from YOUR account, Cole, or a joint one you create together (you don't have to ever use it again after sending the letter) so that it's NOT coming from Gabbi since this dude needs to know that she is NOT willing to talk to him ever again. Let him know that you *plural* are contacting him to tell him to stay away or you'll be forced to assume he is in aggressive pursuit and a threat to Gabbi's well being forcing you to seek out a temporary restraining order. (Trust me, temp restraining orders are handed out like candy. It's NOT an idle threat.) It may or may not scare him, but it WILL a) show a united front and b) make it absolutely clear that Gabbi has NO intent toward him and that you, Cole, have no intent of tolerating this loser's presence, either.
It's worthwhile delving into why Gabbi couldn't dismiss this guy immediately. She obviously had no intentions toward the guy, so it may just be a matter of pretty much "writing a script" that she gives out when these situations arise so she can do it from muscle memory even when she's shocked or thrown for a loop (like this lamer calling out of the blue.)
Blocking the number seems worthwhile, for sure. It may not stop him from changing his number or calling from another one, but it yet again gives the message: YOU ARE NOT WELCOME.
It is a shame she can't change her number and keep it private. Using a Google Voice number as a business number would give her more flexibility in screening and blocking calls than a regular cell phone does, but it's really not foolproof, either.
My final thoughts? You guys are doing so wonderfully. Don't let this setback define the entirety of how things are. As you have with so many things, embrace it as a learning experience and a chance to reinforce the weak spots.
for Emphasis - its a freakin rule she (your WS) should be saying to "you" -- meaning - This is what she should bring up to you.. not the other way around.
Your WS speaking...
"that guy is a loser - I don't want to have any contact with him --- cause he creeps me out --- he hit on a married women -- that is creepy....
To clarify, I understand Gabi has the brunt of the work here. She actually has done much of the stuff suggested, without the cussing and disrespect. She is as troubled by this as I am. Enough that she sought out and scheduled counseling for why she has trouble not standing up and doing what is right in these situations. She called our priest and discussed what happened with him. She approached me about it right off the bat. She feels it is a wake-up call to her that this isn't a problem that was purely linked with the fog thinking, but an issue she needs to deal with.
I've mostly sat back and tried to process this in my mind, talk it through with her. However, since I'm not Gabi, my intent in this thread is what, if anything, should *I* be doing? Doesn't mean I'll do it all while she does nothing. But it isn't an either/or thing either. And I've been processing what response I should have to this. To that end, I threw out options to consider. To this point, this thread is the only thing I've done other than to discuss it with Gabi and tell her how I feel about it all.
Comments on suggestions and my own options. It really doesn't matter which of us goes online and adds his new number to the block list. If we do that, it will be because we both decide it needs to be done.
But, I'm not sure blocking his number is that productive, and here is why.
My concern isn't specifically just about this instance. It is that she needs to conquer her reluctance to turn people down. Because if she can't turn down someone she doesn't love anymore who asks her to talk for a minute, when she knows that is the wrong thing to do, how will she turn down the next guy who comes along and starts sextexting her? Who draws her into a web of desire for sex again?
She's got to stand on her own feet here, and do what is right no matter that it will make someone else feel bad about her. Blocking his number will not do that.
Likewise, we've done the email from my account thing before. It worked for a while, but obviously not permanent. I don't feel like I want to play hide and seek, cat and mouse with this anymore. The only way it will end is if Gabi makes it clear to him she doesn't want to have anything to do with him again. To hurt his feelings.
The whole macho thing is a crutch in my opinion. I'm not threatened by her failures. She either comes through or its over. Not because it hurts or doesn't hurt me, but purely because that is the reality.
I know she can do this, but I don't know that she will. It is up to her, and I'll support her efforts to heal this problem in her life. It is a good route to healing for both of us in all this.
As much as we the BS would LOVE for the OP not to exist or dissapear from our lives- its not always so easily.
And everyone healing and agreements and deal breakers and marriage is their own.
Are you willing to lose the love of your life because they didn't respond how you wanted? Or they didn't ignore how you wanted?
I think that not having a backbone or not wanting to hurt people is a common trend with the affair spouse. They got themselves in a situation and probably never ever had to have a backbone. I mean, my husband went to two war zones, and still is scared of his affair partner. He never had to break up with anyone EVER because I was his first relationship. No I am not giving him excuses, but some help is much more psychological-- like the inability to hurt someone, etc. that goes far beyond marriage counseling and deep into individual counseling. I know i get criticized sometimes for sticking it out in a scenario that several people wouldn't spend a day in... but I am not ready to give up or say its over... and thats my decision.. just likes its Cole and Gabbis decision how to heal and deal with these stumbles... we are going to stumble guys.. both of us.. both the BS and the other partner... and we all need forgiving hearts in order to heal properly.. just my opinion.. but I don't think its really appropriate to tell anyone to line a bridge with C4 and blow up their relationship, thats not our place... we are here to support.. not judge or be cruel.. we are all in a state of healing or hurting beyond our worst nightmares... we gotta be there for eachother or we just end up pushing people away from our board because they don't feel welcome with their real world scenarios...
I have given 100% to rebuilding since May 11th 2011, not always perfectly but definitely with full dedication. Not just rebuilding my M, but also myself. I have changed in so many ways. our M has changed in so many ways. I have done everything asked of me and more since last contact a few weeks after Dday. I have been to confession at least 50 times since Dday as prescribed by my priest. Talk about soul searching! He has been tough on me and rightly so. Tough love. He has given me other spiritual disciplines which I keep. I have added some on for myself. Cole and I have read books together and continue to do so. We did as much MC as we could afford early on. Our marriage is entirely different than it was before. Our priest told us he thinks of us as a new couple. We are near our 31st anniversary. We have a family. Our first biological grandchild is almost here. We have history. I have never put this much dedicated effort into anything.
I had a wrong reaction. Bad decision. There is no way that this one incident erases the 21 mos of hard work that we have done. It takes nothing away from the progress we have made. What it did do however was give me a wake up call. (pun intended) to show me an area that needs attention. This may actually be a key issue. Thank you myblvdofdreams for making it even a little clearer to me.
My priest told me, when I called him, that he is glad I am able to see this issue and my need. He told me not to sweep it under the rug but to bring it out and deal with it. That is what I intend to do. I will never promise 100% success because that kind of attitude would take me off my guard. What I do promise, is 100% effort and commitment. I promised Cole I would give 100% effort and I would give him 100% of me, on Dday, and I have kept that to the best of my ability and will continue to do so.
I have not read all the posts but the few I have read have me so impressed!
You both seem to have come so far! What a blessing to repair your marriage and stay attached to your faith. The power of the sacrament of reconciliation is profound! The Holy Spirit can only take you so far, the rest comes from your actions and reactions to where it sends you.
I hope to learn more about your accomplishment, you both should be proud of it!
"My concern isn't specifically just about this instance. It is that she needs to conquer her reluctance to turn people down. "
Yes Lets start at home or in general - my question would be - does she have a hard time turning you down? Saying "no" to you? Saying no to anyone? Cause if she has a hard time doing that to you unfortunately that carries over to others as well. As weird as it sounds its true -
My STBX had/has these issue. She could never so no to me and she had a very hard time expressing herself.
I don't know what its actually called but its a weakness they have. I can turn people down in 2 seconds and not really care because I know my value and my goals no one can talk me into anything unless I weigh the pros and cons.
You are correct in your thoughts on blocking the number because heres the thing - you block his number - lets say this dude magically disappears - what is stopping her from not doing the same thing with another dude - where she can't say "no". Stand up for herself and saying - leave me alone. Cause thats ultimately what needs to happen here. Her taking a stand for herself.
If in the very first time she meet dude - she either did not engage or said leave me alone I am married your creeping me out. I will call the cops - my H - whoever creepy guy. You would not be in this situation in the first place. She needs to figure out why it is that she has this weakness in herself and work on it - and really really look hard.
Once she has that concrete that she can build her walls up from - you won't have to worry and you will laugh at any jackass that tries to hit on her - cause u will know she can handle herself.
she needs to be able to handle herself. Not you handling that aspect for her. Also, she needs to give you a ton of "love" and reassurance. A ton and she better.
"JUST SAY NO"
Same applies to marital fidelity. We teach our kids NOT to take candy from strangers and yet, as adults, as parents, we take the candy (attention, admiration) from strangers.
The bad thing is, if he were to call her up out of the blue, I don't know for sure she'd turn him down. I would hope so, but I don't know she would, especially now.
OM#2, while I'm sure sex is on his mind, also enjoyed spending time with her. They worked out at the gym together, went to the store together, texted and talked all the time while she worked, he even went with her to help do some house cleaning jobs. He did for sure fall in love with her, and I know she did with him. And I'm sure all this time he has assumed because she was forced to end it, and she told him she loved him, that she still does. For a while that was true, but she felt no love for him for several months now. And this phone call confirmed that for her at least. But it is contacts like this that can fire that back up in no time.
But, no. He was highly infatuated with her. That's why he kept trying to contact her in the early weeks, kept stalking her when she worked at the job on his block, and why he called again, hoping like his rebuilding attempt, it was falling apart at two years out. He has a lot more than booty on his mind, though I'm sure that is there as well.
Gabi said he indicated in the call he was depressed. He's not over her. I guarantee it.
In My Humble Opinion,What he did, Gabbi, when he asked you to keep it a secret was to test and see if you would again put a wall between you and Cole for him, and open back up a special window between the two of you.
I do believe he got the answer he wanted and he will be back.
For all extensive purposes, he believes he has a window open again, and there is again an affair like wall between you two and Cole.
What would put a clear boundary back in, and show him where the true wall is, would be for you to send a joint text message to him and Cole saying, essentially, something like:
I am writing to apologize. I told you a lie knowing I was lying to you. I never had any intention of keeping this a secret from my husband, but just kind of found myself saying I would. The only person I have secrets with for over a year now is my husband. Please respect this. Bye, Gabbi
Why I would write something like this is I believe it would remove the impression that he has a window open between you two. And I believe it would show him that your actually have windows open with your husband, and walls between he and your marriage.
Just my $0.02.
Now, start working on that addendum to the book your writing! The addendum about OM and OW fishing again years later.
Peace to you two!
I'm only glad that this is the incident that brought it to light, and not another affair. As you can tell, my days of ignoring red flags are over. When one crops up, we deal with it. Don't sweep it under the rug and hope it goes away. Thankfully, I have a wife willing to tackle those issues, and if not for that, we'd not be as far along as we are today.