Refuse2quit, this is a decision that is obviously important to you and your faith. It just isn't for me. I no longer hold hatred and anger towards my father despite the abuse. I even feel sorry for him because of the abuse he endured. I grew to pity him for being unable to heal himself from his own abused childhood. There is more than a black and white thinking to forgiveness. I can choose not to forgive, but also choose to heal and not hold onto those negative emotions you wrote about. I do not hate him, nor wish him bad thoughts such as "i hope he burns in hell." Even if I did, I have found that some survivors find this empowering. This can be important to them as well. But as far as my healing, forgiveness has nothing to do with the negative emotions. My choosing not to forgive him is not because the time in my healing isn't "ready for forgiveness." It is simply because neither of us needed it.

I disagree with it does nothing for the other person. It may not have been important to your abusers or in your situation. Again, each person is different and has different needs. My mother needed it. It helped her. I would have healed either way, although It felt good to finally be understood by her to some extent (albeit 10 years after I had healed from most of my abuse). As much as she was able to do given her own issues anyway. She was very religious, which may be one of the reasons she felt she needed forgiveness. For the sake of her soul, she felt the need to be forgiven and I was healed enough to see that she was sorry and I could forgive her. But this was her need not mine.

It may be that in your journey that forgiveness is important, but for some of us it is not. Each person needs to discover this for themselves and be true to their own healing. I do not think it is the lack of forgiveness that causes the anger and negative emotions. The abuse and betrayal did that. You say that you believe the act of forgiveness is an individual one, but then also state those of us who chose to view it in a different way may need to worry about "future recpercussions for that decision." I took that to be very demeaning towards those of us who understand it differently than you. To be honest, I worry more that people early into therapy are told that forgiveness is needed for their own healing when it is something we each need to discover for ourselves. It can be destructive towards healing for some people.

Even you stated in your original post that you have to forgive them over and over. because if not you feel negativity come into your heart. For you this is an important thing to keep them from affecting you. But for me I do not depend on forgiveness or not of my father or to allow negativity into my heart or soul. They are not connected in anyway. It seems to me that the fact that it does need to be done over and over means that there is more going on instead of you being able to just heal and move on. Doesn't this still give them the power of affecting how you feel about yourself? It sounds from all your writings that to not forgive means you MUST have hatred and negative emotions. It may be true for you, but not true for everyone.

Each one of us is an individual and we all heal differently. You may believe that forgiveness is another stage of healing, but I do not. It doesn't mean your way is wrong, but neither is mine. Just means we each need to figure out what is best for each of us. Hold on to your faith as it works for you, but I hope you can understand that forgiveness is not the only answer nor is it essential to all those who are healing. You asked for the opinions of others right? Then please accept that we all do not need to think alike. I hope you can understand that no way of healing is better than another. We all need to discover our own individual paths.

Omii:
I agree entirely - we all have our road to walk and we all have our choices to make. As long you are happy with your decision, and it seems right to you, then it is. As I have said time and again, this is an individual decision made on my part for me. And I would never try to tell anyone what they should or should not do - for many of us, someone made decisions for us in the past that were not theirs to to make, but we all have opinions about this and I think that this shows in the fact that this post has already drawn about 60 or 70 replies and has been around for a while.
I support whatever each of you decide, but I just thought to start this as I don't think that forgiveness is for the other persons betterment, but your own. Is it essential - obviously not, but again, to each his own.
All my best -
Steve

just the person doing the forgiving

Hello everyone - hope this finds you all well.
There is one comment that I would like to make here - I find it sad that MANY people have privately messaged me, saying that they found that forgiveness was an important step for them to make in their journey - the sad part of this is that many of them would only state this in a PM or a hug or some other form of communication as they were concerned that other members would get on their case about having made this choice.
Again, it's odd to me as many respondent's have taken what I said very personally, and felt it important that I know that I had no right to tell them how to think or what choices to make, yet some members did not feel that they could openly talk about their choices as those choices included what is an unpopular option on this board.
So maybe some of those who are quick to tell me that I am mistaken by choosing to forgive the men who abused me, need to take their own suggestions and not tell others what choices to make in their progress. Again, as I think it is important for individual choices to be voiced here, I hope that others will allow ALL choices to be expressed without feeling that it somehow undermines THEIR choices or is a way to for one person to believe that only THEIR choice is the right one. One thing that I do know is that as my journey evolved, so did I - the final decision that I have made is MY choice and I have a no time tried to make others feel bad about not following my lead, but nor will I feel bad about how I choose to live my life. And it took years to get to where I am, this is not a decision I would have made or thought possible years ago, but as I have said all along, for me it is the right time and right decision.
All my best as usual-
Refuse2quit

Well I once said, how can I forgive if the apology isn't there? I wont be able to forgive because the idiot doesn't care if he hurts me even now with mean words. the control over me with the mean comments damaged me over and over again, the initial act makes him a sick pervert. I wish I never knew my brother. The way the parents turned their eyes away and let it go on and on. I cant forgive them either. I believe that their karma will be their reward though. I want that peace though of how it feels to be free from it. It is a long long story. It cant go away even if I could forgive I do believe in forgiveness but I ask God to help me figure out whats right for me. Its an ongoing process. I just want to be happy and free from the scumbags influence. I live far away from my family for a reason. The other children were molested too and we have a molested children union of souls who are still suffering. One of them said he apologized, but I don't believe she forgives him. Now that I think about it, I conclude I cannot forgive him, nope..I think an apology now would just be too little too late. besides like I said he still belittles me. its bad all the way around. I need friends here. ty

I do hope that you have found friends here and that simply because I have made this choice, you do not think I could be your friend also; you were ever to need to talk, I will more than open to supporting you if I can. I am somewhat surprised that so many lashed back with such anger at me for posting this, but then I thought for several days before I even made this post. I knew it would touch many in areas that they were not comfortable with, but again, if we are all here to support one another, then I should be able to be honest of how I feel about such subjects.
I do understand that there are somethings that just seem to be beyond a person's ability - and for many of us forgiveness is one of those things. I respect that, even if others thought I was trying to say they SHOULD or HAVE to forgive their abusers. That was not my point, only that I feel that FOR ME, the time has come to let go of these negative emotions. And it is a process, as any progress is for any of us, no matter what decision we make about how we feel toward the people that abused us.
celticlass09 - I do hope that you find peace in your life, no matter how you have to go about finding it. That is, in my opinion, what progress is about - finding the ability to take the power out of the past abuse and living our lives with acceptance and empowerment of who we are as individuals, beyond what the abuse did to us.
All my best to all-
Thanks for letting me voice my thoughts everyone....
Refuse2quit

Forgiveness is not a simple concept nor easily defined. There is a thread running thru your post Refuse2quit that implies 'religiously' that if anyone here wants to 'rise above the level' of their abusers then forgiveness is an eventual necessity.

we were never on the same level as our abusers.

Forgiveness and it's meaning changes with age. it means something different In other societies.

The research you quote is true . but only has valid meaning within groups where forgiveness is considered essential.

for example : the i.q. test has valid reference only within the anglo saxon protestant group given that all individuals tested had equal access to the same level of education and grew up in the same cultural tradition.

so the iq test is a truth with defined parameters. outside those parameters it becomes a falsehood.

if any single individual falls outside the parameters of all social standards / " norms" it we here at DS.

me personally, I can do forgiving within limits. I could never be around my bio father. my forgiveness had a boundary that ends once he gets within arms reach of my hands.

but it doesn't bother me to hear someone else refuse to forgive.

what I will stand against is anyone who allows hate and related feelings and thoughts towards their abuser to leak out on me. wanna hate on your abuser be my guest. I know the feeling. but I don't allow that to be an excuse to abuse other innocents around me. that is the very excuse the abusers use : I was abused when I was younger. and I do see that here. its not ok.

if any person can't handle the hate and anger by keeping it contained and focused on the abuser ; than maybe you'd better learn to forgive and move on. Cuz its not right to "take it out on" innocent by standards such as loved ones.

Rafyel:
I have had a lot of replies talking about my "religion" - in reality I believe I am spiritual, and yes was raised Judeo-christian, but I do not completely hold with any one aspect of this religion when I speak of the need to forgive others. That is pretty universal in all major religions and most positive self help approaches.
I have never placed victims on the "same level" as abusers - abusers have their own motivation and twisted reasons for what they do. But, I do believe that for me, (and this is supported by research on a huge variety of groups, not just restricted to Anglo-Saxon protestants samplings......) holding in all the negative hatred and desire for vengeance can corrupt the individual, but has no direct effect on the abuser unless you actually try to make them "pay for their crime" - even if you do take some form of revenge, the harm is done and the pain we feel does not just evaporate.
I am not just basing my belief on me and my upbringing. Prior to becoming a Social Worker, I worked as a research assistant in an Integrated Neuroscience and Psychometric lab and have spent many hours looking at how a person's outlook effects their present and future lives. If you research any reference to the "effects of forgiveness" or the "effects of negative emotional states" what you will find is tons of research that backs up the belief that holding onto said negative emotional states can bring about equally negative effects on the physical, mental, developmental, emotional, relational, self image, (etc.) formation of a person's life.
Now with that all said, I still find it odd that everyone on this site will support those that are expressing rage and vengeful beliefs, and yet someone who states that, for them, enough is enough and it is time to remove this last bit of remaining effects of the abuse, gets a lot of resistance - I did expect most of it, but still it does strike me as odd that the ones that have been expressing their support feel that they have to do it in mostly Private messages and such - I really would expect a little more openness to those with positive messages, when appropriate. But again, each of us have to find their own path to happiness, which also is the message that I have pushed rather hard here, but which seems to get overlooked in the conversation.
Basically, what I believe is that all those negative emotions are another way that we continue the effects of the abuse - depression, anxiety, PTSD effects - these are NOT good things to have in a person's life, and they are all results of the abuse - and no, just forgiving the abuser does not "cure" these effects, but when all else has been done, FOR ME it was a logical step in moving beyond the abuse. his is NOT my opinion, but one expressed by therapists and researchers of abuse worldwide.
So, here is another long reply to the posts of others who think I am trying to "tell them how to live" - funny, as we can tell others to hate, rage and seek vengeance, and that is NOT telling them how to live or what choices to make? There is a time and place for all these feelings and telling others that they have only the negative emotional range to explore is just not in my makeup, as it is not backed by any research or has it been my experience of dealing with victim's of abuse for over twenty years now.
Personally, I will support anyone, no matter where they are heading with their choices, as long as it is toward a positive outcome and not harmful to themselves. I do kind of wish that more here had been supportive of me, even if my choice was not what they wanted or felt they needed in their lives. But to each their own......
As always,
All my best-
Refuse2quit

Rafyel:
I have had a lot of replies talking about my "religion" - in reality I believe I am spiritual, and yes was raised Judeo-christian, but I do not completely hold with any one aspect of this religion when I speak of the need to forgive others. That is pretty universal in all major religions and most positive self help approaches.
I have never placed victims on the "same level" as abusers - abusers have their own motivation and twisted reasons for what they do. But, I do believe that for me, (and this is supported by research on a huge variety of groups, not just restricted to Anglo-Saxon protestants samplings......) holding in all the negative hatred and desire for vengeance can corrupt the individual, but has no direct effect on the abuser unless you actually try to make them "pay for their crime" - even if you do take some form of revenge, the harm is done and the pain we feel does not just evaporate.
I am not just basing my belief on me and my upbringing. Prior to becoming a Social Worker, I worked as a research assistant in an Integrated Neuroscience and Psychometric lab and have spent many hours looking at how a person's outlook effects their present and future lives. If you research any reference to the "effects of forgiveness" or the "effects of negative emotional states" what you will find is tons of research that backs up the belief that holding onto said negative emotional states can bring about equally negative effects on the physical, mental, developmental, emotional, relational, self image, (etc.) formation of a person's life.
Now with that all said, I still find it odd that everyone on this site will support those that are expressing rage and vengeful beliefs, and yet someone who states that, for them, enough is enough and it is time to remove this last bit of remaining effects of the abuse, gets a lot of resistance - I did expect most of it, but still it does strike me as odd that the ones that have been expressing their support feel that they have to do it in mostly Private messages and such - I really would expect a little more openness to those with positive messages, when appropriate. But again, each of us have to find their own path to happiness, which also is the message that I have pushed rather hard here, but which seems to get overlooked in the conversation.
Basically, what I believe is that all those negative emotions are another way that we continue the effects of the abuse - depression, anxiety, PTSD effects - these are NOT good things to have in a person's life, and they are all results of the abuse - and no, just forgiving the abuser does not "cure" these effects, but when all else has been done, FOR ME it was a logical step in moving beyond the abuse. And, this is NOT my opinion, but one expressed by therapists and researchers of abuse worldwide.
So, here is another long reply to the posts of others who think I am trying to "tell them how to live" or "preaching to them" - funny, as we can tell others to hate, rage and seek vengeance, and that is NOT telling them how to live or what choices to make? There is a time and place for all these feelings, but telling others that they have only the negative emotional range to explore is just not in my makeup, as it is not backed by any research nor has it been my experience of dealing with victim's of abuse for over twenty years now.
Personally, I will support anyone, no matter where they are heading with their choices, as long as it is toward a positive outcome and not harmful to themselves. I do kind of wish that more members here had been supportive of me, even if my choice was not what they wanted or felt they needed in their lives. But to each their own......
As always,
All my best-
Refuse2quit

Sorry guys - I have no idea how my last reply posted twice - and this site doesn't allow you to remove posts, but actually the first post was posted before I was completely done editing, correcting, etc.
Sorry again - a glitch occurred somewhere!

Refuse2quit