Incest Survivors Support Group
Incest refers to any sexual activity between closely related persons that is illegal or socially taboo. Consensual adult incest is very rare. Incest between adults and prepubescent or adolescent children is a form of child sexual abuse that has been shown to be one of the most extreme forms of childhood trauma. If you or a loved one is a survivor of incest, join the group...
We recently had a good post placed on the Sexual Abuse board and it is still there gaining input. It is entitled "My hero is now my boogie man" and it was posted by bbgirl418 and is a good post to read and share about. But it lead to a question about forgiving your abuser - the hows and whys. I posted why I forgave my abusers in length on that thread, but it made me wonder about others who have, or have not, forgiven or tried to forgive their abusers. I thought I would place this here along with the SA forum/
My own stance is that the forgiveness is not for their benefit, but for you as the victim. These people sexually abused you - do you really think they give a flip about your feelings toward them? If they did, the offense would not have occurred. So I believe you forgive others in order to better yourself. Carrying anger, hatred and rage is destructive to you, not them - again, they could probably care less and maybe, seeing that you have been able to overcome their abuse will make them think about their actions and the effects.
For me it is not a one time thing. I still get angry over aspects of what occurred to me, and I experience it and then process through it. Then I forgive them again. It is an on-going process. But it is possible, because I experience it many times over. And the reasons that I do this is because I truly believe that if I allow such negativity into my heart, then their abuse is still changing and corrupting me. I don't condone or make excuses for my abusers, but I say "I forgive" and I know that if either were still alive and in trouble and asked for help I would help them because I am better than them in that way. I just absolutely REFUSE to allow the abuse to change me or my personality in any further way than it already has. I will not give one more second or ounce of pain to the abuse unless I can't help it. I want to love and respect others and that is difficult when you carry hatred in your heart. Now I would never allow them or any one else to abuse me again, but I will not allow the past acts they forced on me to keep directing my present and future outlook.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT LETTING THE ABUSERS GET AWAY WITH THEIR BEHAVIOR - it's about changing your thinking for the better and forming a healthier attitude. They still have all the blame for what they did and should be held responsible.
So I am throwing this out there, knowing that others will not exactly agree, but my point is - if they are not aware or they do not care about your feelings, then why do you let this ultimate negativity reside in your heart? Isn't forgiveness just another stage of healing? Isn't it a way of sort of thumbing your nose at them to say "you cannot hurt or change me any longer in any way"? I guess I have just always been averse to turning into a hate-filled person, because I see my abusers as such.
So who do you think forgiveness helps - you or the abuser? Who is hurt by holding these feelings - IMO not them in the least, and especially with my abusers, as they are dead. They have no idea how I feel toward them, or if they do they can't do anything about it now. BTW - neither ever tried to apologize or make amends for their actions.
But I do believe the saying "hatred corrupts it's container" - so maybe this is where I am coming from.
You may not be there yet, and may never be, but wouldn't that be a goal toward ultimate healing? Not saying you have to aim at this, I am just asking......
My own stance is that the forgiveness is not for their benefit, but for you as the victim. These people sexually abused you - do you really think they give a flip about your feelings toward them? If they did, the offense would not have occurred. So I believe you forgive others in order to better yourself. Carrying anger, hatred and rage is destructive to you, not them - again, they could probably care less and maybe, seeing that you have been able to overcome their abuse will make them think about their actions and the effects.
For me it is not a one time thing. I still get angry over aspects of what occurred to me, and I experience it and then process through it. Then I forgive them again. It is an on-going process. But it is possible, because I experience it many times over. And the reasons that I do this is because I truly believe that if I allow such negativity into my heart, then their abuse is still changing and corrupting me. I don't condone or make excuses for my abusers, but I say "I forgive" and I know that if either were still alive and in trouble and asked for help I would help them because I am better than them in that way. I just absolutely REFUSE to allow the abuse to change me or my personality in any further way than it already has. I will not give one more second or ounce of pain to the abuse unless I can't help it. I want to love and respect others and that is difficult when you carry hatred in your heart. Now I would never allow them or any one else to abuse me again, but I will not allow the past acts they forced on me to keep directing my present and future outlook.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT LETTING THE ABUSERS GET AWAY WITH THEIR BEHAVIOR - it's about changing your thinking for the better and forming a healthier attitude. They still have all the blame for what they did and should be held responsible.
So I am throwing this out there, knowing that others will not exactly agree, but my point is - if they are not aware or they do not care about your feelings, then why do you let this ultimate negativity reside in your heart? Isn't forgiveness just another stage of healing? Isn't it a way of sort of thumbing your nose at them to say "you cannot hurt or change me any longer in any way"? I guess I have just always been averse to turning into a hate-filled person, because I see my abusers as such.
So who do you think forgiveness helps - you or the abuser? Who is hurt by holding these feelings - IMO not them in the least, and especially with my abusers, as they are dead. They have no idea how I feel toward them, or if they do they can't do anything about it now. BTW - neither ever tried to apologize or make amends for their actions.
But I do believe the saying "hatred corrupts it's container" - so maybe this is where I am coming from.
You may not be there yet, and may never be, but wouldn't that be a goal toward ultimate healing? Not saying you have to aim at this, I am just asking......
That is understandable and as I posted earlier, maybe the initial question should have been "What does forgiveness mean to you?" - It is a very open concept with variable interpretations. I can't say I love my abusers, but I can say I don't wish them any more harm than what they received in their lives. That was it basically - but no, I do not love them and would rather have had no contact with them. As they were family and I was young and unable to discuss what happened, then I had to be in their presence often. But for the long run, I could not hold the negativity toward them. They did disrupt my life and cause me decades of pain. But, I am who I am because of the totality of my life experiences and I like who I am now. I can't say that I have felt that way all my life, but I do now. I can say I love myself, but I don't think I could do that if I held hatred. I just find that a hard emotion for me to contain.
Thanks for your input-
Refuse2quit
I obviously have lots of thoughts on this topic!!! Thank you for inspiring me to think on this subject!!!
That was the entire reason i posted this - it all started in a totally different thread and I thought of it all night. I finally posted it, knowing i was basically placing myself right in the middle of the freeway at rush hour. But if I can truly forgive my abusers, I can accept and validate anything that a member here feels and expresses!
You were abused on SO MANY LEVELS and in SO MANY WAYS. I do hope this gave you GOOD material to think about and grow with - as I said, I knew I would be throwing myself under the bus to some degree, but it has already allowed so many to express their anger and really think about what the whole topic means to them. At least I hope that is the effect.
You have my deepest empathy - and you have come so far from what you have said. I do not personally think you have to love to forgive, but if that is how you see it, then that is what it means to you. For me it just means I would help others no matter what they did to me - I have always turned the other cheek so to speak and I actually have a couple of stories where 2 people that I used this approach with told me it changed their lives, because they could see their own weakness in not being able to do such. But again - that is my experience. You have every right for your feelings and so many more!!! I don't know how I would handle the events that you rose above. Be proud - for I am glad I have gotten to know a little more about you.
Refuse2quit
I've tried and my rational mind says "Oh that's dangerous. It's not just about you and what you suffered, but the collusion of your family to pretend nothing is wrong and to expose and not protect your child and nieces and nephews from known sexual abusers."
If retaining anger in order to have the power to fight is what it took, I'm for it.
My brother mocked me when I asked for an apology. I said I would never willingly see him again and I have not for over 20 years. He doesn't deserve me as a sister. That made me feel empowered. I don't think I need to forgive to feel better or more at peace. It is what it is.
I don't feel a need to forgive someone whom I will never have a relationship with again. I am just happy I won't see his leering, smirking face again and saved myself that additional pain.
Thanks for the post!!
Refuse2quit
The one who forgives because she loves him and stays, or the one who accepts she was deceived and believes she deserves better and leaves and puts the past behind her? Do we encourage her to forgive? Do we think her anger is justifiable?
We all know we pity the first one and think she is a fool. Trying to get love from bad people is sure to bring pain. Believing you are worthy of better lets you move in the right direction. I don't get why incest victims are encouraged to put energy toward forgiveness.
I would never dream of seeking forgiveness towards a snake if it bit me. I try to picture the abusers in that way. Do they think about me? I doubt it. Do they want to be forgiven? They haven't asked.
I think forgiveness, in the context of incest or abuse, allows abusers to roam free. It's not about forgiveness. It's about stopping the rampant child abuse going on in our cultures.
I say this coming from a place where I forgave. I forgave the abusers for their abuses. It helped for awhile. It helped me feel safe. I was deluded.
Do you think it's possible to not forgive but yet not feel hatred? I wonder if the definition of forgiveness is relevant here.
- but that is just what forgiveness is defined as. The Oxford English Dictionary defines forgiveness as 'to grant free pardon and to give up all claim on account of an offence or debt'.
MAY TRIGGER -
As you have no idea the abuse that I suffered, I can tell you - no Dr. Pepper bottles - beer bottles - the little short fat ones; and not for 9 years, but for 10. And I have cigar and cigarette burn marks on my scrotum and penis that I have had to explain to more than one doctor. I am sorry, but you are just angry, perhaps rightly so, but the other posters have at least taken the time to read the post completely and see that I was just relating how I now deal with my past abuse, and their responses were done with respect. You are not the only voice here either, so get off the soap box. There is no reason for you to think that I was approving of anything that was done to me, nor that I approve of child abuse. You have every right to your feelings, but I don't have a right to mine? The question was "how do you feel about forgiveness of your abusers" - that was it - basic and simple. Tearing me a new asshole will not take your pain away and I think we all can see how far your hatred has taken you toward helping others.
If you cannot take the time to read the entire post, then stop trying to rip me a new one because you do not know what I said or am asking. I am sorry you are offended, but you should really re-read what I was saying - lead your life as you need and or want. I was not trying to say for you to do differently. I just wanted to know how others felt about carrying hatred around all the time.
Enough said.
Refuse2quit
I do understand what you are saying also; I am not an advocate for allowing abusers to go on abusing or to get off with a slap on the wrist - in fact I believe that sexual abuse and incest should be comparative to murder in the court system because it does take your life away from you and alters it completely. And sexual predators should be monitored closely for the rest of their lives as this crime has the highest rate of recidivism as any other crime on the books - once a predator, almost always a predator.
But, as I said in my original post and subsequent posts - my hatred had no effect on my abusers at all. The OED that you gave is true and should not be what we base our judicial system on. But, after feeling anger, rage, frustration and hatred for 30 some odd years, I hated myself for taking those feelings out on either myself or others. As I also said - my abusers were both dead before I started addressing my abuse. I had to move past those feelings as they were not hurting anyone but me. They had changed me and made me a mad, angry, distrustful person. And that is not who I was at my core.
I was not advocating this approach for everyone. The questions I asked in the post were not being asked in order to drive home a point as much as I was actually asking - how has hatred helped you? It destroyed some of the best parts of me. And yes, I am sorry I am a christian. But my beliefs are not just christian in origin. Most all of the ancient writers and prophets, those that society admired enough to continue to quote or built religions around taught the forgiveness was a virtue - not a weakness. Jesus, Mohammad, Confucius, Buddha - they all taught the strength of forgiveness. Modern day people of high honor teach the same - Maya Angelou for example.
I was not trying to proselytize - I was asking how has hatred helped you. Really nothing more. I have read post after post here where others can express themselves and they are supported. I started talking about my experience, and everyone wants to tell me I am wrong. Isn't there something wrong with this picture?
Again, I am sorry to have offended - not my intent. But I sure feel better having moved past the negative stage of hatred and rage toward my abusers, as it was having no effect on them, but was destroying me. I was sharing my experience and asked for yours. That simple. Again, if you knew me or my usual posts you would see that I am not the type to try and tell people how to live or believe - I encourage healing in any way that I can. But as a social worker and counselor of Domestic Abuse, I can tell you that my experience is that the people who know how to forgive can develop better attitudes toward life and love in general - again. my opinion and I feel I have the right to express it. Sorry if it came across poorly to you, but promoting hate is not what I believe in. Anger, yes, hatred no.
Refuse2quit