Incest Survivors Support Group
Incest refers to any sexual activity between closely related persons that is illegal or socially taboo. Consensual adult incest is very rare. Incest between adults and prepubescent or adolescent children is a form of child sexual abuse that has been shown to be one of the most extreme forms of childhood trauma. If you or a loved one is a survivor of incest, join the group...
We recently had a good post placed on the Sexual Abuse board and it is still there gaining input. It is entitled "My hero is now my boogie man" and it was posted by bbgirl418 and is a good post to read and share about. But it lead to a question about forgiving your abuser - the hows and whys. I posted why I forgave my abusers in length on that thread, but it made me wonder about others who have, or have not, forgiven or tried to forgive their abusers. I thought I would place this here along with the SA forum/
My own stance is that the forgiveness is not for their benefit, but for you as the victim. These people sexually abused you - do you really think they give a flip about your feelings toward them? If they did, the offense would not have occurred. So I believe you forgive others in order to better yourself. Carrying anger, hatred and rage is destructive to you, not them - again, they could probably care less and maybe, seeing that you have been able to overcome their abuse will make them think about their actions and the effects.
For me it is not a one time thing. I still get angry over aspects of what occurred to me, and I experience it and then process through it. Then I forgive them again. It is an on-going process. But it is possible, because I experience it many times over. And the reasons that I do this is because I truly believe that if I allow such negativity into my heart, then their abuse is still changing and corrupting me. I don't condone or make excuses for my abusers, but I say "I forgive" and I know that if either were still alive and in trouble and asked for help I would help them because I am better than them in that way. I just absolutely REFUSE to allow the abuse to change me or my personality in any further way than it already has. I will not give one more second or ounce of pain to the abuse unless I can't help it. I want to love and respect others and that is difficult when you carry hatred in your heart. Now I would never allow them or any one else to abuse me again, but I will not allow the past acts they forced on me to keep directing my present and future outlook.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT LETTING THE ABUSERS GET AWAY WITH THEIR BEHAVIOR - it's about changing your thinking for the better and forming a healthier attitude. They still have all the blame for what they did and should be held responsible.
So I am throwing this out there, knowing that others will not exactly agree, but my point is - if they are not aware or they do not care about your feelings, then why do you let this ultimate negativity reside in your heart? Isn't forgiveness just another stage of healing? Isn't it a way of sort of thumbing your nose at them to say "you cannot hurt or change me any longer in any way"? I guess I have just always been averse to turning into a hate-filled person, because I see my abusers as such.
So who do you think forgiveness helps - you or the abuser? Who is hurt by holding these feelings - IMO not them in the least, and especially with my abusers, as they are dead. They have no idea how I feel toward them, or if they do they can't do anything about it now. BTW - neither ever tried to apologize or make amends for their actions.
But I do believe the saying "hatred corrupts it's container" - so maybe this is where I am coming from.
You may not be there yet, and may never be, but wouldn't that be a goal toward ultimate healing? Not saying you have to aim at this, I am just asking......
My own stance is that the forgiveness is not for their benefit, but for you as the victim. These people sexually abused you - do you really think they give a flip about your feelings toward them? If they did, the offense would not have occurred. So I believe you forgive others in order to better yourself. Carrying anger, hatred and rage is destructive to you, not them - again, they could probably care less and maybe, seeing that you have been able to overcome their abuse will make them think about their actions and the effects.
For me it is not a one time thing. I still get angry over aspects of what occurred to me, and I experience it and then process through it. Then I forgive them again. It is an on-going process. But it is possible, because I experience it many times over. And the reasons that I do this is because I truly believe that if I allow such negativity into my heart, then their abuse is still changing and corrupting me. I don't condone or make excuses for my abusers, but I say "I forgive" and I know that if either were still alive and in trouble and asked for help I would help them because I am better than them in that way. I just absolutely REFUSE to allow the abuse to change me or my personality in any further way than it already has. I will not give one more second or ounce of pain to the abuse unless I can't help it. I want to love and respect others and that is difficult when you carry hatred in your heart. Now I would never allow them or any one else to abuse me again, but I will not allow the past acts they forced on me to keep directing my present and future outlook.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT LETTING THE ABUSERS GET AWAY WITH THEIR BEHAVIOR - it's about changing your thinking for the better and forming a healthier attitude. They still have all the blame for what they did and should be held responsible.
So I am throwing this out there, knowing that others will not exactly agree, but my point is - if they are not aware or they do not care about your feelings, then why do you let this ultimate negativity reside in your heart? Isn't forgiveness just another stage of healing? Isn't it a way of sort of thumbing your nose at them to say "you cannot hurt or change me any longer in any way"? I guess I have just always been averse to turning into a hate-filled person, because I see my abusers as such.
So who do you think forgiveness helps - you or the abuser? Who is hurt by holding these feelings - IMO not them in the least, and especially with my abusers, as they are dead. They have no idea how I feel toward them, or if they do they can't do anything about it now. BTW - neither ever tried to apologize or make amends for their actions.
But I do believe the saying "hatred corrupts it's container" - so maybe this is where I am coming from.
You may not be there yet, and may never be, but wouldn't that be a goal toward ultimate healing? Not saying you have to aim at this, I am just asking......
By the end of the day, I had spent a total of 12 hours online and my back was killing me for having sat that long, but I did feel it was important to at least try and answer each response as well as I could. That came with the territory I was entering. So at the end of the day, I was just really mentally and physically tired.
I think we can get stuck discussing only the pain and drawbacks to our abuse - of which there are a plethora of. But I just felt it equally important to share that, for me, there is life beyond the negativity. I again do apologize for any hurt feelings, but I also hope I gave some readers a glimmer of hope that, at least for some, the healing can take you places you never dreamed you could go. When I was in my 20's, 30's and 40's, I never thought that the hate would ever leave - and that saddened me as much as anything. It seemed like, in that way, the abuse continued and I was permanently corrupted by it. I will always have been changed by it, this I know - but I have lived 7 times longer with the abuse as I did without it. It is time for me. And my age has a lot to do with it too.
Anyway - I am so glad that others have found some benefit - the post was not made lightly or with any malice. So in that way, I am glad it "took the flak" as one person PM'ed me.
Sadly though - I had several people who PM'ed me in agreement, but said they did not want to get "bashed" as they felt I had for making such a statement. In that sense, it makes me wonder what other topics are out there to be discussed that some are fearful of the repercussions, and thus stay silent about?
All my best everyone - I do hope, if nothing more, my post shed some light on another point of view, whether you believe it or not. Take from it what you can or want, or ignore it totally - again, it is just an expression of my beliefs and experiences.
Refuse2quit
Is that healthy? I don't know- but it feels right to me right now. Will I ever be able to say "I forgive you" to him or about him and truly mean it? I doubt it and now that I have been here for a while, I understand that there are so many dynamics going on that it is hard to say who will and who won't forgive. But I don't think whether we do, or don't defines any of us or our healing. I think I can objectively hate this man and still work on healing me. The first true raw emotion I found when I started working on me- was hatred. Full on hatred. I accept that hatred just like I accept love for my children and any other emotion that comes to me. I do not have a full range of emotions yet- but I will have at some point. I do know that in working in here, forgiveness. Has not been one of my goals. To me, that is too much about him and less about me. I hope that makes sense. Good thread Refusetoquit. I commend you for bringing it up.:)
As I know you and your backstory somewhat well, I can completely understand your emotions and your feelings of unforgiving - your journey has really just started in many ways and to think about forgiveness at this point, in my opinion would be a mistake - you have not processed or worked through so many issues - to say you forgave this early in the game, I think, would just be a way of avoiding and not truly working through your pain and betrayal issues. I totally agree that at times we may think we forgive the abusers when in reality we may just be using that as a "quick fix" instead of having to actually do the work and deal with the stress of the process.
This I think is the problem when we talk about forgiveness in any sense - is the person truly past the need for anger, rage, etc. that often motivates the changes and indicates area of work needed? If not, then forgiveness, in my opinion is not an option. And for many it may never be. But, as I say, I think I am there. This post has given me a lot to think about - you know my obsessiveness with what I say and how it affects others! But I did locate a secondary abuser, my aunt, who I still have pretty major issues with. But for me, I think it is time for me to continue on the issues that I originally posted about.
I was wondering what your thoughts on this were, but was respecting your need to deal with it in your time.
Thanks for your input. Totally understandable and an good addition to the discussion.
Refuse2quit
I believe you hit the nail on the head!!! This teqnique of feeling and accepting ones feelings has been the greatest gift to my healing!!! Even more so than forgiveness... Just the ability to allow what i feel to have space in this world and not try and squash the feeling for something that I am aupposed to feel!!! That is why forgiveness is not for everyone and that everyone needs to come to forgiveness entirely on their own, when your feelings give you a clear desisve feeling of forgiveness then you know that it is your time, but not before then!!! Otherwise you are trying on a straight jacket for your feelings!!! Let the feelings dictate to you when forgiveness is neccisary and when it is not!!!
You two have hit on a subject that could be a post of it's own (an in ways has been) - the importance of embracing your emotions without influence as to what you SHOULD feel, but what you NEED to feel. Very powerful points to be made. Again, when I first posted the thread I wished I could edit somethings right away as I wish I had been better able to better stress the importance of experiencing the emotions relevant and appropriate to YOUR experiences and stages of healing. I am so glad you brought this point to light. We are often shamed for NOT being forgiving or accepting - and that is not what I was trying to say. This is where I am at, regardless of what others think. I did wonder what others would think of what I was going to post, but I did not let that stop me, because I am where I am, and I believe what I believe. I would be the last one to tell others that they need to listen to anyone BUT their heart, their mind and make their own goals; you would not be comfortable living someone else's lives so I think it is of utmost important to be true to yourself - only YOU know what you need and want.
Thanks for this great input....very strong and worth stressing over and over - be yourself, be true to yourself and while moving forward know your goal. But also, be open to evolving in the process of your healing. Otherwise, without change and self-evolution, there is no progress.
All my best - and thanks to everyone who has responded with respect to others and their journeys.
Refuse2quit
Okay this happened and I can't change it.
Now what?
But I am not even close to forgiveness. I often think that concept is off the table or never on the table to even give it a chance.
If that is the case, then for you, at this time and perhaps forever is the case. Again, I posted simply about myself and my situation. As I said. this is a journey that, for me has been going on for 33 years since I first sought counseling. I have seen a total of 12 therapists over the years, have read about abuse and recovery for years and both of my abusers are dead. Forgiveness is right for me at this time. Ten years ago - even 5 years ago, I felt like you and this was not an overnight decision, nor does it have anything to do with accepting or condoning abuse. But for me, the feelings are no longer relevant to progress and I wish to start processing them out of my system.
There is a third stage of healing - most just know about the first two - "Victim" and "Survivor" - the third stage is called different names, some call it "Conqueror" other "Victor" etc. - and they are applied to people who have moved beyond the "surviving" stage and have reached a stage of "thriving" - I feel I am moving there.
Again, this is my journey- and for me to limit the possibilities of progress and growth is just not in my makeup. If you say "I will always feel hatred or be unable to forgive", well, you probably will, And in the past I could not imagine such, not should I have. I needed that anger, blame and such to progress - it us a vital motivator for progress. But, I wanted to show people that there is a further healing for some - and again, if there is a possibility to move beyond just surviving and start truly thriving, without the hatred and need for blame, isn't it worth speaking of?
I guess I was mostly surprised by the amount of people who, not only defended their own need feel blame and hatred for their abusers, but those who really blasted me for trying. I have posted many threads about the drawbacks and harm that abuse caused me, but I have never had such response to a thread as I did when I suggested that I was going to start the process of forgiveness - that just somewhat addled my perspective. I understand why others feel the way they feel and I support others where they are, but I received little support for my position with exception to my friends here and those who really read and thought about my post.
Thanks for your input - I found all posts valid, except for those that really just attacked me. I have rights to my feelings and beliefs also, whether they are ones others hold or not.
I do hope you find peace and acceptance with you decisions in your life. And please never limit your possibility of future evolution and growth - just understand what you need right now. That is the important issue at hand.
Refuse2quit
I love vocabulary, and the word Forgive and variables, well not to the abusers. I would say that is for me, only me. For blaming myself, or thinking that I had any control over it, which as a child I didn't.
As far as you looking at generational upbringing and repeat reaction passed down? The word for that is understand. Because you know they were repeating as taught, you understand they had no tools to work with to determine right and wrong.
I understand why my PTSD husband held a gun to my head, professing love and hate for hours, he was ill.
As empathy I feel your pain, because I know it myself.
Acceptance, only because I have to. To get to a point to do something to help me.
Yes I am angry, yes I would now, choose to chop off hands and other essential body parts of my abusers, that lied or lied by omission, what they did too me.
Let them live missing a portion of themselves, like I am.
For me, my sexual abuse started at 2 years, when I could speak, my emotional/physical abuse started. So there is no happy time in childhood, to gauge normal on. Just vivid memories that I can't control when any emotion starts free wheeling. That forever created a need for perfect love, so perfect I was nearly killed.
All my best - I do hope you have good support and understanding - you were traumatized by your ex and there are few forms of abuse that transcends such.
All my best - let us know how you are!!
Refuse to quit
I agree with the words of this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMLsF8ajI6U
...I'm Not Jesus. I will not forgive.
Several years before she died, my mom admitted her part in some of the abuse. She apologized, and actually changed some of her behaviors. She began to treat me better, not judge and blame or continue to exhibit her past abusive behaviors. She made active changes and I really do beleive she was sorry. I did forgive her because she not only said sorry, but changed her behaviors and I eventually believe that if she would have been stronger herself and more knowledgeable she would not have done the things she chose to. Times were very different in the 60s and 70s. We never got close as that ship sailed long ago, but we did learn to respect each other and show caring and love towards each other.
My father however, never admitted a thing. He never appologized and never asked for forgiveness. I only saw him once after i escaped him, and that was at my brother's wedding. He never changed, nor did he see a reason to. Yes, I'm aware that he, at a young age also was abused physically, emotionally, sexually and even surgically. He was brought up and taught to hate and abuse, but he still chose to continue these behaviors when he became an adult instead of learning a better, non-abuse way to live. In fact, he chose not only to abuse one family, but a second and then a third before he died. There is nothing to forgive him for, as he never asked for it.
That has nothing to do with my healing. It is my choice to heal, whether or not I choose to forgive anyone. I am the one who went through years of abuse then years of pain and hardship as I learned how to deal with abuse and recover. Although they abused me, I am the one who rose from the ashes. I don't carry my father's anger, hatred and rage with me Refuse2quit. I carry peace and love for those I choose to share my life with. Before my parents died, they both did see me overcome the abuse and they chose to deal with this in different ways. I didn't have to thumb my nose in order for them to see the changes, just live my life, recover and move on with or without them.
I have both forgiven and not forgiven. So if it truly has no bearing on my healing, then forgiveness is for the abuser in my opinion. My mother wanted and earned forgiveness from me. She needed it for herself. My father never wanted forgiveness, so he also got what he wanted. But the forgiveness was not essential to my healing either way. I understand it does help you in your path to recovery, but we all have different paths to take. There are no absolutes. We all need to find our own routes out of the darkness. For me, forgivness is not essential to my healing and not my ultimate goal.
Again, the act of forgiveness is an individual one - many of you have decided one way or the other; but my original post was to address how holding hatred and anger toward others does nothing to the other person, but it can corrupt your present and future by holding on to the negative emotions. Neither of the men who abused me found anything they did as wrong or deserving of asking to be forgiven. I was raised in a faith that stressed how forgiveness enriches YOU, and has little or no ties as to the other's persons recognition of their actions. That is really where I was coming from in many ways, but such a decision was based on what I know about mental health and the effects of hatred on the individual that holds on to such.
Research paper after research paper shows that people who hold negative emotions are further damaged by the emotions - they live shorter lives, have higher rates of health issues, often have poor relationships, and usually maintain poorer self images due to the negativity that they carry.
But again, this is a TOTALLY individual decision. And I do believe there is an appropriate time for forgiveness - that it is not a decision to make too early in recovery, as often the anger is a motivational emotion that drives a person into action. But for me, the time to forgive has mostly come and gone. I still have times when I think back with great anger, but I would not wish that either of the men that abused me were themselves harmed (although they are both dead now). To wish such on someone else just makes me too much like them. They did not have concern for the comfort or welfare of others, and having such myself has molded and moved me into where I am now - and I am much happier as I can know that I do not have to hold onto these "dark feelings" any longer.
But again, the appropriate time for such is crucial, along with whether it is important for you. If not, then my wish is that you be happy and feel comfortable with your decision and that you do not pay any future repercussions for that decision - this is actually what I wish for all survivors concerning any decision, - but forgiveness is not a decision to take lightly and it does elicit deep feelings from many of us as seen by the fact that this thread is still being spun, many months after the original post.
Thanks for all your input -
Refuse2quit
For instance, my mom wants me to forgive my brother for what he did, while he has never once asked for forgiveness from me. He has never once apologized, yet I am the one always expected to give ground and be generous, because he's human. I'm the bitter one for not forgiving, but to them, his anger is perfectly understandable. They always seem to forget the fact that I'm human too. Even if, on the very slim chance, he does come begging on his knees, I'll laugh in his face and walk away with no regrets.
I don't hate him, as that would be a waste of time and energy that I can spend on something more worthwhile, i am merely indifferent to him. So long as he stays far away from me, I don't care if he dies an extremely painful death tomorrow or lives out his life in peace and happiness. He's none of my concern anymore.
I hope he feels guilt, but only in the sense that if he does, he won't be likely to do to other women what he did to me, however, even hoping for that much is a wasted effort on scum like him.
Even talk of forgiveness makes me feel nauseous as it reminds me of all of the abusive shit I've been through at the hands of "loving" Christians only concerned with quieting me and covering up the incident.
I don't begrudge you for being able to forgive, I think that's great if that's part of the process that helped to heal you. But that will never be a part of my process. No matter how long I live or how well I move on, forgiveness is not an option.
This is not about taking the higher road for me, this is about not wasting time or energy on people that don't deserve it. I personally am fond of stories of revenge taken against abusers. I think every person abused has a right to it. But like I said before though, I've got enough to focus on in my life without wasting more of my time on him, so revenge isn't in the cards for me either,
It feels nice to be able to state that I won't forgive him in concrete terms though. I don't think I've done it before, so this is a nice sort of release for me.