Incest Survivors Support Group
Incest refers to any sexual activity between closely related persons that is illegal or socially taboo. Consensual adult incest is very rare. Incest between adults and prepubescent or adolescent children is a form of child sexual abuse that has been shown to be one of the most extreme forms of childhood trauma. If you or a loved one is a survivor of incest, join the group...
We recently had a good post placed on the Sexual Abuse board and it is still there gaining input. It is entitled "My hero is now my boogie man" and it was posted by bbgirl418 and is a good post to read and share about. But it lead to a question about forgiving your abuser - the hows and whys. I posted why I forgave my abusers in length on that thread, but it made me wonder about others who have, or have not, forgiven or tried to forgive their abusers. I thought I would place this here along with the SA forum/
My own stance is that the forgiveness is not for their benefit, but for you as the victim. These people sexually abused you - do you really think they give a flip about your feelings toward them? If they did, the offense would not have occurred. So I believe you forgive others in order to better yourself. Carrying anger, hatred and rage is destructive to you, not them - again, they could probably care less and maybe, seeing that you have been able to overcome their abuse will make them think about their actions and the effects.
For me it is not a one time thing. I still get angry over aspects of what occurred to me, and I experience it and then process through it. Then I forgive them again. It is an on-going process. But it is possible, because I experience it many times over. And the reasons that I do this is because I truly believe that if I allow such negativity into my heart, then their abuse is still changing and corrupting me. I don't condone or make excuses for my abusers, but I say "I forgive" and I know that if either were still alive and in trouble and asked for help I would help them because I am better than them in that way. I just absolutely REFUSE to allow the abuse to change me or my personality in any further way than it already has. I will not give one more second or ounce of pain to the abuse unless I can't help it. I want to love and respect others and that is difficult when you carry hatred in your heart. Now I would never allow them or any one else to abuse me again, but I will not allow the past acts they forced on me to keep directing my present and future outlook.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT LETTING THE ABUSERS GET AWAY WITH THEIR BEHAVIOR - it's about changing your thinking for the better and forming a healthier attitude. They still have all the blame for what they did and should be held responsible.
So I am throwing this out there, knowing that others will not exactly agree, but my point is - if they are not aware or they do not care about your feelings, then why do you let this ultimate negativity reside in your heart? Isn't forgiveness just another stage of healing? Isn't it a way of sort of thumbing your nose at them to say "you cannot hurt or change me any longer in any way"? I guess I have just always been averse to turning into a hate-filled person, because I see my abusers as such.
So who do you think forgiveness helps - you or the abuser? Who is hurt by holding these feelings - IMO not them in the least, and especially with my abusers, as they are dead. They have no idea how I feel toward them, or if they do they can't do anything about it now. BTW - neither ever tried to apologize or make amends for their actions.
But I do believe the saying "hatred corrupts it's container" - so maybe this is where I am coming from.
You may not be there yet, and may never be, but wouldn't that be a goal toward ultimate healing? Not saying you have to aim at this, I am just asking......
My own stance is that the forgiveness is not for their benefit, but for you as the victim. These people sexually abused you - do you really think they give a flip about your feelings toward them? If they did, the offense would not have occurred. So I believe you forgive others in order to better yourself. Carrying anger, hatred and rage is destructive to you, not them - again, they could probably care less and maybe, seeing that you have been able to overcome their abuse will make them think about their actions and the effects.
For me it is not a one time thing. I still get angry over aspects of what occurred to me, and I experience it and then process through it. Then I forgive them again. It is an on-going process. But it is possible, because I experience it many times over. And the reasons that I do this is because I truly believe that if I allow such negativity into my heart, then their abuse is still changing and corrupting me. I don't condone or make excuses for my abusers, but I say "I forgive" and I know that if either were still alive and in trouble and asked for help I would help them because I am better than them in that way. I just absolutely REFUSE to allow the abuse to change me or my personality in any further way than it already has. I will not give one more second or ounce of pain to the abuse unless I can't help it. I want to love and respect others and that is difficult when you carry hatred in your heart. Now I would never allow them or any one else to abuse me again, but I will not allow the past acts they forced on me to keep directing my present and future outlook.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT LETTING THE ABUSERS GET AWAY WITH THEIR BEHAVIOR - it's about changing your thinking for the better and forming a healthier attitude. They still have all the blame for what they did and should be held responsible.
So I am throwing this out there, knowing that others will not exactly agree, but my point is - if they are not aware or they do not care about your feelings, then why do you let this ultimate negativity reside in your heart? Isn't forgiveness just another stage of healing? Isn't it a way of sort of thumbing your nose at them to say "you cannot hurt or change me any longer in any way"? I guess I have just always been averse to turning into a hate-filled person, because I see my abusers as such.
So who do you think forgiveness helps - you or the abuser? Who is hurt by holding these feelings - IMO not them in the least, and especially with my abusers, as they are dead. They have no idea how I feel toward them, or if they do they can't do anything about it now. BTW - neither ever tried to apologize or make amends for their actions.
But I do believe the saying "hatred corrupts it's container" - so maybe this is where I am coming from.
You may not be there yet, and may never be, but wouldn't that be a goal toward ultimate healing? Not saying you have to aim at this, I am just asking......
And as I said earlier - perhaps the question should have been "how do you define forgiveness?"
Anyway - I am glad you are happy with where you are - I really was not attacking anyone, just expressing my view and wondering about others.
Thanks for the input.
Refuse2quit
Thanks -
Refuse2quit
I can well see that that is highly possible and abusers will utilize a forgiving nature. But it is not with naivety that I forgive, not is it total, but for me it is essential - again, I knew I would start a firestorm with this question, but I have also seen where it made people think about a subject that seems oddly taboo. We can openly discuss some of the most gruesome and disturbing acts done to ourselves and others, but to ask how others feel about forgiveness is "no man's land"? Again, it seems a little skewed to me and that is after working with abuse victims for over 10 years.
But as I say, I knew it would get reactions, I just hoped it would also make people evaluate how they felt and what is important to them.
Again, it was not meant to offend, just to ask.
Refuse2quit
Anger and rage is the only appropriate emotions to incest or abuse in any way....To try to force yourself to forgive so that it somehow you're not angry (meaning you as in anyone) it doesn't makes sense it sounds like suppression of emotions to me...Or like you gave the word forgiveness a spin it doesn't have.
Doesn't forgiveness involves two people not just one?
Not forgiving is very healthy.Its a stance you take in your behalf for your behalf.. Its saying NO and NO excuse.You matter as a child and you do not have to now jump on hoops to deserve healing and peace..
I think its cruel to tell people that if they want to heal they must forgive...very cruel. They could hate for the rest of their lives because they have a reason and still deserve healing and peace.
And can still attain it without forgiving people who do not deserve it.
Because if you keep the anger alive you may do something constructive with it....if you do nothing for your peace of mind who benefited? them.
Here's what Andrew Vachss child advocate says to Oprah about forgiveness its 4 videos worth watching nad hearing.
http://www.wallsofsilence.com/musicvideo.php?vid=de8bac478
I can see I will be having to do this all day as I have offended so many. And that was not the intent in the least - for those who have read my posts, I have never meant any harm.
There have been some really good posts here, but as it is so offensive to so many, I am asking DS to remove it. Again, no offense was intended nor was I saying that the offenders should not be punished. But I do have to wonder how to get the vic and the perp together to obtain that apology, or whatever it would take, when the abuser is dead? And if the hatred and unforgiveness was hurting me, why is it such a threat for me to do so. I am not deluded - I went through that YEARS ago - I have had too much therapy and too much research to believe I do not know what I needed. But as I had the gall to forgive two dead men, I will ask the post removed.
No harm meant, no offense intended - please forgive me for bringing it up-
Refuse2quit
And those of us that really feel that forgiveness is exactly what abusers want you to do..... Appease yourself and let them off the hook...
Anger is the backbone of healing....And actually these discussions about are very helpful for those who are confused then they can make up their own mind.
You did not offend me (speaking for myself) but I do stand with Andrew Vachss on the importance of why people should understand exactly what are they meaning when they say forgiving.
Like Journal said the dictionary definition is what the word means with no spin..
Its also very important that people understand that they do not have to forgive to heal.
Thanks for the respect - I do appreciate it.
Refuse2quit
YOU DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO MOVD ON IN YOUR OWN WAY AND LEAVE IT ALL BEHIND YOU THE BEST YOU CAN!!!
Just as you said that someone else has the right to hate!!! No one is taking what works for you away!!! We all would agree that people need to find the thing that works for them and do it!!!
I believe this to be an excellent topic of discussion!!! And most of us to not take your words personally, we understand that we are all on the same path, to healing, and that we are all at different places on that path... It would be impossible to see everyone some are to far behind and some to car ahead!!! But please do not take my words personally at all... I was simply engaging in your discussion in what felt like a healthy and healing thing for me to do!!! I thank you for posting a controversial topic and as unomas has said it is beneficial for others to read out ideas, agreements and disagreements!!! You never know who's mind will be opened or whose heart will be touched!!!
Please try not to take others opinions on forgiveness as us saying you have no right to yours!!! We are all equal and even those with venomous hate have the right to express their opinion!!! But that is all it is, their righ to their opinion!!! Your opinion is just as valuable to you as their opinion is to them!!! The best way to cope with it all is to recognize that each one is an individual with our own rights and opinions, we may not all agree, but we can certainly agree to disagree!!!!
I sometimes wonder if the topic brings up such strong emotions because survivors are often preached to about how the past is the past or that they should just put it behind them. Sometimes this is done under the guise of forgiveness.
It is a topic that should be discussed. I appreciate your posts.
I used to get very triggered by it.
Now I feel like I get the opportunity to express my experience and share Andrew Vachss vids........But I have learn to respect and value others opinions and i'm no longer triggered by it...
We are all different and unique...We should all do what rings true for us.
We should always listen to ourselves first even before listening to Andrew Vachss...we all have our own answers.
But its an important topic, thanks for posting it.
I have my own take on forgiveness and i do not subscribe to the that forgiving is letting perp off the hook. It is quite opposite in my opinion. I think we put far to much enphaaiss on wha it means to forgive and not enough time trying to understand why we need to forgive. In my opinion, when you learn to forgive you are releasing control of the perp on the victim. I found fo rmyself that as long as i was not willing to understand what it meant for me to forgive then i was allowing the past to control the present and therefore the future is our past if we continue to allow the emotional control by our abusers. I found forgiving them for myself impowered me and put a alot of distance between me and the wounds of abuse. Not forgiving keeps the perps in control and healing becomes much more difficult.
I hope this does not offend. it is not meant to and I am very sympathatic to all who have a different opinion.
rich