Many things my ex did ruined the relationship in my eyes. He was just livng his life. His life the way he chose. Its a judgement, its control. Its like saying OK I love you if you weren't you. If you don't like someone for who and what they are, move on.

I dont think "I love you if you werent you" is what is behind this thread.

I loved my exS but his PD is toxic. Its like loving a leopard, dangerous, will never become tame, better for me to leave...but that doesnt mean I didnt love him...I just loved myself enough to make the hard decision to leave.

Thats my own personal experience, I dont know what the OP's experience is, I just noticed on a 2nd reading, her question about a bad guy ever becoming a good one...and the tone sounded a little sad to me.

And lostsoul, I'm happy for you. Truly. Point is, I just don't care anymore. Everyone trying to figure out why this one does this and why the other one did that. Ugh. I believe I'm suffering from analytical burnout, which happens when you have spent too much time reading posts here. I will therefore bid you all a fond adieu for awhile and spend the next few weeks enjoying life and counting blessings.

And Joy "bad guy" is a judgement. Her judgement. My mother thought my father was "bad guy" too. He wasn't and isn't. It was her judgement. He was wrong for HER.

thats why I started my thread with a big *IF*, and talked about my personal experience

I have no idea what the OP's experience is

In keeping with your leopard analogy, I'm sure you've heard the story told in many cultures in many variations of the alligator who offered the mouse a ride across a body of water. The mouse asked " if I accept your offer, how will I know you won't eat me". The alligator promised he wouldn't. Halfway across the alligator turned around and swallowed the mouse. He couldn't help himself. He's an alligator. That's what they do.

yes, exactly

too bad people with personality disorders dont look like alligators, or leopards, things would be so much easier, wouldnt it?

:)

Uh uh sister! Lol. I'm out of here. No way am I going there today :) I'm going to put conditioner in my hair and relax. Can't do the personality disorders thing anymore.

I hear ya, it seems to end up being a cantankerous subject around here, and as I said, we dont even know if it applies to the OP or not

but for me at least, in terms of no hope for change, it sure helped a lot in the letting go process youre talking about

and thas the bottomline, the letting go and saving yourself, giving yourself a chance at a better quality life

'Change' is not gender specific.

Yes of course ppl change. It's a course of nature and an instinct for survival.

Thank you all for your responses.

The question is just a curiosity about men changing themselves for their own sake. And in which conditions they will change?

I believe we can't change anyone, neither men or women. Only a person can change him/herself.

I never asked any of my ex to change. I just simply walked away when I realized he was wrong for me.

Most of my ex were good, (so I don't look forward for their change) except one. Yeah, sometimes saying a person is bad or good is just a one-sided judgement. But when many people say: "he is a bad person", then it may be true. Maybe we should stop and question: "Is he really a bad person?" Because if we ignore this sign, then we may be a little stupidly dreaming or being manipulated by that person.

For a while I was blind sided and madly in love with him and ignored all the signs. He skillfully manipulated me emotionally. Until one day a big bell rang in my head, I woke up and walked away.

So, for this "bad" ex boyfriend, I just wonder: If one day, he finds the love of his life, a wonder ful girl, will he change? Will he be faithful, caring, loving, stop being manipulative??? Will he treat her like the meaning, the queen, the most important person in his life?

Or will he never love anyone at all but himself?

his style works for him. over the years, we all hone our style. when his aggressiveness no longer works, he will switch to a different tactic.

it is the same thing with passive, sweet women. they are full of love and tenderness. then, the realities of life slam them against the wall. they have to improve their skills too.

@Faithful: what you say about women changing is totally working on me.

i know this sounds stupid, but sometimes we forget that this is Earth not Heaven. we can be sweet as punch and love everyone and still get slammed over and over again by life. it is human nature to assert oneself. but, without clear boundaries, even the best couples can run over each other.

some people, after failed relationships -switch sides. they go try the gay thing and hope that the same thing won't happen. i don't know. it is just a shame that relationships can't be easier to pull off.

i figure that somehow, very gentle people have to seek out other very gentle people. if they don't, they are going to get run over.