emotion and oppression

Bob in Maine,

This is from that Wiki article you referenced:

"Some critics of the disease model argue alcoholism still involves choice, not total loss of control, and stripping alcohol abusers of their choice, by applying the disease concept, is a threat to the health of the individual; the disease concept gives the substance abuser an excuse. A disease cannot be cured by force of will; therefore, adding the medical label transfers the responsibility from the abuser to caregivers. Inevitably the abusers become unwilling victims, and just as inevitably they take on that role. They argue that the disease theory of alcoholism exists only to benefit the professionals' and governmental agencies responsible for providing recovery services, and the disease model has not offered a solution for those attempting to stop abusive alcohol and drug use".

So, I guess I am one of those "critics" of the disease model. I hope that is OK?

Forest, AA does not teach or preach that alcoholism is "just a disease". Maybe I just go to very unique locations that are not the norm.

Whodathunk - when did I say that? I never once claimed that I thought AA treated alcoholism as "just a disease".

Sorry if my posts were misunderstood. My intention was not in the least to be negative about AA or it's philosophies. In fact I was saying the opposite - whatever works for you personally is great by me whether that be AA or anything else.

Forest you were not being misleading at all. The post was negative on AA and falsely linked AA to promoting alcoholism as a disease. I am just (I think) cutting the fat off the meat so we can read the meaning of the post.

I fully agree that this forum should be able to be free for people to "promote" whatever and however they want to stay sober. I have never tried to label others programs or others ways of staying sober. It is like trying to prove who is right or wrong with religion or politics, there is no right or wrong.

There are many different programs and some people are able to get sober with no program at all. YAY for anyone that can drop the drink and be sober however they do it.

AGREED SOSA!!!!!

Buck, you said:

"After all, if 95% of the people who attend AA for the first time are gone after the first year, then perhaps there is some room for improvement in their approach?"

I am assuming that you pulled your 95% from a good source and I would be interested in reading the source of this statistic.

Of the other programs available, what are their statistics for return rates after a year?

If 95% don't return to AA after the first year, are you saying they are relapsed and still drinking? Or could you also say that a percentage of the 95% were helped so much by AA that they did not need to come back and were able to stay sober?

If you are going to quote statistics for a particular program that you personally don't agree with, it would be intelligent and prudent to include in your argument statistics of other programs that alcoholics attend as well.

Also, as a whole, of alcoholics who get sober, statistically how many relapse vs statistically how many stay sober?

If you can't answer that, then I don't see the point in you pointing out what you have about AA needing to improve their program.

But I am very interested in reading your source since I like statistics. I tried a brief google search and did not locate anything specific like you are pointing our in your comments. Thanks.

Buck, to be honest, I didn't read the whole article, I just scanned through it in the hopes that it would give an answer as to how the medical community looks at alcoholism, and answer some questions.

God Bless!

I have heard the 95% number multiple times. Apparently it comes from AA:

In 1990, AA GSO, the governing organization overseeing all "autonomous" meetings, published an internal memo for the employees of its corporate offices. It was an analysis of a survey period between 1977 and 1989. The results were in absolute contrast to the public perception of AA: "After just one month in the Fellowship [meaning AA,] 81% of the new members had already dropped out. After three months, 90% have left, and a full 95% have disappeared inside one year!" (Kolenda, 2003, Golden Text Publishing Company)

I don't know how many of the 90% of people who attended AA for three months and left, left because AA helped them so much they were sober and did not need it. It would be great if that is what is happening! But unfortunately, I don't think so.

I am sure some people also drop because the program isn't a good fit for them and some people drop because they continue to drink. Unfortunately, alcoholism is difficult to beat, and there aen't any easy answers.

There have been some advances in research and I hope the medical community continues to work to find ways to help those with alcoholism, so there are more options and higher success rates all around.

The statistic that got my attention was when this old timer told me in an early meeting that :

Only 1 in 100 true alcoholics. dont ever drink again ...

Im just trying to save my arse!!! I quit a bunch of times, once for two years. I was a miserable a hole. I was forced to drink again because being sober was worse than when I was drinking.

The only way that I have been able to be happy and not a twisted dastard was to go get involved in the program. I find comfort knowing that i have a disorder. and yes it gets referred to as a disease. I admit that i am not bad just have a predisposition to drink TILL ITS GONE!

So for me at least, the cure was not just ' stopping the ingestion of alcohol" because my dry spell was actually worse than when I was drinking. I was miserable. I would get so angry and worked up.

Alcohol was but a symptom. it wasnt the problem it was the solution!!
Today I admit im an alcoholic. Its how i get better And you will get many a person fired up because the love of aa is so strong because it saved them from death, me included!
1-2

Hi Whoda,

My source regarding the 95% not returning to AA after the first year was from the book Empowering Your Sober Self by Martin Nicolaus. The actual quote from the book reads like this:

"AA's own internal membership surveys show that 80 percent of first-time participants at AA meetings walk away within thirty days. Ninety percent leave within ninety days. At the end of one year, out of one hundred who started in AA, only five are still attending"

He references an article by someone named McIntire titled "How Well Does AA Work?" as his source for this information. The article is available via the internet and might make for some interesting reading. Also, I might suggest you read Empowering Your Sober Self as it brings up numerous pertinent issues with the AA approach in general.

You and some others in this discussion group seem very defensive regarding the AA program. I personally believe it is important to research the efficacy of any alcohol addiction treatment program before I sign on as a supporter. From what I have researched on the topic thus far, I personally think AA could benefit from some changes in their approach and general philosophy regarding how to help those addicted to alcohol. That does not mean I think AA is a bad thing, it only means that I think they are due for some changes. Change can be a good thing if it results in a more effective program.

It saved my life too....but I had to find out why ... I had a guy named Jerry tell me... Billy you cannot hide out in AA,or Na or whatever other immersion process you choose "that's admirable" and keeps you busy but its just another way of Drowning yourself metaphorically in your own vomit slowly! and remain sober if your not engaged.!

I remember how excited Christine was as she tried another way of getting engaged in Something different or along with AA after a10 year hard core relapse after being sober for almost 20 years!!

As Exj said :"Unfortunately, alcoholism is difficult to beat, and there aren't any easy answers."

Here's another link if your a reader or a seeker with time to spare:))

http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/

Whos2say:))))

Billy

I tried AA and left and still didn't drink. Not all within those statistics of those who left are people who left and continued to drink. Something to keep in mind.
AA just wasn't a good fit for me; I don't debate its clear success. My aunt for example, is a staunch atheist and drank herself to the point of related strokes. In and out of rehab. AA has been the only thing that has helped her stay the course.
Returning to the original topic of how we became alcoholics. I look at it this way:
You invite people over for a dinner party. Do you go and ask each and everyone of your guests who arrives, "Did you take route 101 then Bleakers Lane then Pleasanthill Drive? Because if you didn't, you took the wrong route." No! You say, "Welcome, glad you made it and glad you are here!" The point being, it doesn't matter how others get here or their views. What matters is they get there.

Bleakers Point .....been there Done that butt Pleasanthill Drive sounds appealing:))

Officially aa and Bill Wilson didn't say disease. The exact term is malady.
This is a quote from Bill
We have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example, there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments, or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an illness, or a malady -- a far safer term for us to use

But we do say my disease to give a name to the enemy.
My disease is merely in remission. I don't ever NOT have a predisposition to abuse booze. If I take one drink I will awaken the Cracken.

1is2many

And this is a carbon copy of a age old argument that will always get the gloves off. I think it's good to think but the reason I drank was because I liked the effect produced by booze, period. It was easier to hide than live.

I use to say that AA saved my life but the truth is that God saved my life. AA was the vehicle that helped me find Him! I think there is alot of fear about AA and I understand why. It took me a long time to get past that fear before I started doing the steps and fillng the empty void inside me with contentment and a new sense of purpose.

There is a great book called, "the 12 steps for everyone who really wants them" which is the AA 12 steps adapted for EHA which stands for Emotional Health Anonymous. You can get it on Amazon used for a few dollars. I have an extra if anyone here wants one, I will send it for free if you trust me with your address,.

AA started me on my spiritual journey. Every day I try to read, learn, pray and meditate. It helps me get through the day just knowing I don't have to do it alone!

God Bless!