The human concept of hate has always been represented by feelings of malice, loathing, and hostility. Perhaps that is not the Godly meaning of the word; in the Bible, God's hate always seems to manifest as a rejection of relationship, not malicious disgust toward a person. So perhaps hate was never meant to be malicious disgust, and was supposed to indicate our rejection of a person from having any place in our relationships. Thus, a perpetrator has forfeited their inclusion in the concept of life being interconnected...they are, so to speak, banished from the web of our lives. It has nothing to do with toxic resentment, just expulsion from our garden.

I wish there was more input from other religions, too. I'd like to know many more points of view.

Leitha, your post got me thinking. How you said "He was the reason my raped stopped..and I continued to breathe". That is another point for me when it comes to my religious beliefs. I thought for a long time...if God loved me, if God is all powerful, then he obviously ALLOWED *not caused* but allowed for these things to happen to me, while posessing the ability to stop it.

I thanked God initially for allowing me to live through my rape. But then I got to the point where, it seemed selfish to thank Him for that. Did he stop my rape? Did he allow me to continue to live? To me, the answer is no. I don't believe that I was allowed to live at the hands of God. Now, if God did not wish for me to live anymore, He could have allowed that, I guess...but my life was in my rapists hands. I became angry with myself for thanking God for saving me, while seeing stories of rape that resulted in murder all over the news. By saying that God allowed ME to live, and to thank Him for that, why did God not offer that courtesy to those other women whom were killed at the hands of their attackers? Can I really thank God for allowing me to live, or instead, shall I thank God for giving me the ability to keep fighting, physically and mentally, throughout the whole of the attack. I don't know the answers to these questions, but for me, the answer was that I had to humble myself.

Can I be angry with God for not going against his GIFT of free will to His people, by *allowing* my rape to occur? No, by doing that, I would be elevating myself above God, above His plans..."the sin of pride". I have come to be content knowing that I may have suffered, but would I give up the choice of my relationship with God to have avoided being raped? No. I thank God for the gift of free will everyday now, it has brought me great comfort. I don't know where this answer started or stopped or what the point of it really is...it just got me thinking.

Laura,
What you wrote reminded me of a story that was in the news years ago. I cannot remember the exact happennings, so I may get some of it wrong. But, not the main point. This woman was being kidnapped and she began reciting Psalms to the man. She just continually recited versus and he left her without any harm. Yes, I believe it was his free will to leave. But, God's words did intervene. Why did his words intervene this time? I think that some people's being is so engulfed with evil or so far away from God that they cannot feel the Holy Spirit move within them. Therefore, their free will keeps them heading in the same direction, the same choice. But, this man who stopped whatever his plans were must have felt the Holy Spirit and changed his mind. I know there have been times that I felt the Holy spirit move within me and I resisted. I paid dearly for it.

I love God and I thank him for my time here and for the grace that he has bestowed upon me and continues too. I believe every breath is a gift. I do not know the reason that some people die and others don't. I do believe in miracles. I do not know why some people receive them and others not. I hear people say and have said it myself that I will ask God those questions, when I get to heaven. But, I do not believe we will ask those questions of God. However, I could be wrong.

There is a reason for everything and because their is evil in this world it isn't always a good reason. But, with God's help people can overcome. I am blessed to be here with you all and thankful for Matt bringing us together. There is power in numbers! I mean look how much we have grown. We wish that we didn't have a reason to be here, but we do. So, I am thankful to God for this site and Matt's insightfulness of this need. It is a gift, a blessing. Keep praying!

Laura, I don't know if it is a thing that I was 'led' to believe...or, just how I decided I had to think in order to remain sane. But, I was so young...and very young in my understanding of God. I was taught of a mean-spirited, vengeful God who used terms like "smite"....that God would not have shielded me from harm...because of the 'sin' in my life that allowed me to invite harm into my life. [That is what I thought anyway].

I prayed during my rape. I wonder just how many of us did that - prayed....focused our minds on the words necessary to form a petition to God. If you prayed - do you remember what it was you asked for? I do. I possibly remember, almost word-for-word, that meek prayer. I know I was afraid to ask God for anything...but terrified not to.

I am amazed sometimes just how long it was before the thought to pray entered my mind that day. It wasn't immediate. I had been brutalized for quite some time actually before the idea to pray came to me. Before I asked for God's help...I cried out for the aid of my father. Ironically, he being the reason I felt the need to escape...now he was the one I wanted to save me from this. Rational thought wasn't a reality I don't suppose, not right then.

They used my father...the fact that I had audibly called out for him during the rape...they used that against me toward the end. The tall one telling me that my daddy would have to teach me how to do it better...so, I know I said it out loud. I don't think I prayed out loud. But, once I believed I was to die that day, I began to pray. I told God I was sorry...I told him that I knew this was my fault...that I knew they were there because of me. I asked God to please not be angry with me..to please forgive me for asking this man to my home. I told him I was sorry that I showed him my body...that I knew that was wrong...and I told God I knew He was upset with me for everything...and, I asked God...if He could please, please make them take me somewhere else to kill me so my mom wouldn't have to find me..so I wouldn't be found dead in my own bed..naked. I think it was then that I found the courage to ask the tall one the very same thing...I was able to find the courage to actually talk to him about my own death. I would like to say that a great calm came over me...that I felt the spirit of God move over that bed and lift me up and away from the pain....and, maybe He did, in the form of dissociation, which I DO attribute to Him. But, as for the term "allow", I am not sure how to resolve that word into this scheme.

I think evil exists...but, I am not sure why God din't just thwart evil when he cast Lucifer from Heaven. Like...I have always believed...because I was told, that God is 'omni' everything. Omnicient...right? So, yes...the question is valid....where was God when I was raped? Or you? Or any of us? Was He occupied elsewhere? No...can't be if he is omnicient..omnipresent...omnipotent....so, where was He?

I cannot answer for a scientific certainty about God. I believe faith is required here, to understand God in this context. I don't think science can explain the intricate details of a body...and how it works itself toward health....or even birth. Beyond cells and matter...there is so much more. I believe that circumstance did not cause life to become. I believe God did.

I had always said that my problem with God, and my rape...or your's....or any other bad thing that comes to be is not that God couldn't help...couldn't move His hand...breathe a breath...and all evil would cease - it was that God DIDN'T move His hand...breathe a breath...make evil cease. I believed so strongly that He could, that it created the basis for a thought I had during the rape -- I caused this, and God didn't help because of my guilt. So, it has taken many years to come to any point in this life where I can lay the blame at another's feet.

I do not believe God sets evil acts into being.
I do not believe God is blind to evil attacks on anyone..not just the chaste and pure, not anyone.
I do not believe God turns his eyes away form our pain.
I do not believe God uses our pain to teach us...or to reach us.

I believe God knew I was talking to him during that time...and that He heard me. I also believe he answered my prayers...not by sending my dad...my dad never came. He didn't answer by causing the evil to cease as soon as I asked...but, it did cease.

As for my breath continuing....did God do that? I think I live every moment of my life at God's discretion. I believe it is by His grace that I was spared death...and I count on that grace to aid me the rest of the way through this life I have left. How that reconciles with others who have died at the hand of their perpetrators...I don't know. I know, quite easily, I could have been a headline on May 17, 1970 - plain and simple. Why was I not? Not by anything I did. I didn't fight. I didn't beg or plead....well, not for what one might expect. I begged, but not to live. I can't answer the questions posed about those of us who lived...and those who died. I can say, I did nothing heroic on my own behalf that day - I lay still and complied with their plan...and every day since then, I have battled with myself about that fact. Do I hate God for what happened? No...not in the least. Do I blame God? No...I used to think he let it happen...let it come to me because I deserved it. I don't think that now. I love God...and, I believe he loves me too. And, in a way...I suppose he loves them too...in a broken-hearted sort of way. I can't hate them, because....I have asked God not to allow hate to be a thing in my heart. I ache sometimes..miserably so. Some days the weight of all of this seems too great, but...I have been blessed in this life. I have a husband who loves me...dearly, dearly loves me. I see it in his eyes, and feel it in his hands. That is a blessing. I have a son...and a grandson I was never supposed to be able to have. I am blessed. I have been reunited with a sister I always adored and looked up to. I am blessed. I have a job I can do well...and that I enjoy. I am blessed. I am a survivor of rape. No...rape was NOT a blessing...but, being a survivor - I am blessed.

I have down days where all of these words seem foreign and as if they belong to another. But, in my heart, I know I lived through that day...and all the days that have followed. I am free of venereal disease...which is a miracle if you know my history. I have been protected from so many things the life I lived after rape might have wrought. So...I believe, despite all of it, the rape included...I am blessed in this life.

So...did God answer my prayer that day? I believe so.

I guess I didn't phrase my response very well. Today, I thank God for the gift of life as it continued after that night, and then just very recently. I know he was there, and I know he is the reason I still am today...but the, why me and not them? question plagues me still.

I know that my rapists were Catholic, or at least one of them was or knew of the faith. I was praying the Hail Mary through out my rape, and I don't know if I was saying it outloud, or if I was mouthing the words silently...I do not remember, but one of them began mocking it, saying it in a very high pitched, pathetic sounding voice. I can only assume that they are catholic or at some point knew of it or SOMETHING...because it isn't a common prayer, and is only a Catholic prayer, not something that anyone would have learned if they weren't I wouldn't think. and that is when I began fighting harder because they were not only attacking my body at that point, but my very soul, my very being. That is something that I attribute to God, the anger that arose in me at the mocking of my faith in Him.

That memory brings up another stuck point in my faith for me, but I won't address that here, its a private matter, perhaps a journal? haha doubt it... :) maybe!

I understood you Laura....you didn't word it wrong. I get the thing about us living....and those who didn't. I can't imagine why God didn't take me that day...or, allow my death..or, whatever phrasing this point deserves. I am glad he didn't...I am glad I am alive.

The attack on your faith...THAT is such a valid point! I am glad you mention it here. That you had a faith foundation during your rape...and could access God, even if you were mocked for having done so, I think that is beautiful. I am not catholic...but I am familiar with Hail Mary full of grace, blessed art thou among women...(I miss some of it in here...but know it goes on to add)...now, and in the hour of our death. I don't know when I learned that...but, I agree it is not a thing an average person would know never having been exposed to it. God heard his rendition of it....and I believe that he used a prayer in such a manner...that would be akin to blasphemy...in a most heinous way. But you know what? I just thought about this...and, as unsettling and anger-provoking as that mocking prayer was to God...it was no more so angering to God than the actions they were perpetrating against you. I know it is kind of a thing like any survivor goes through when we realize we lived...and others did not. Like, how in a plane crash...or 9-11...how survivors go through so much questioning about why they are still here, and so many others are not. I think those thoughts are normal, rational...and, unanswerable. At least, not in this life anyway.

But, as for the other point...the one you won't post here...but will in a journal....(see it? The word WILL) I think you should journal it. You have been doing so well with words here...I love it when you write. You cheat us all when you hold back, lol. Seriously though, you should write it out, even if you lock it for a time. Journaling isn't always painful...well, maybe a little...but, then it gets better. I love your responses here to this post. Thank you for sharing your faith...and your painful experiences with us.

Oh, that anger...to the mocking....I guess that is literally the definition of 'righteous anger'.

I'm not going to guess as to why Laura's anger at the mocking of the prayer, but I from my thoughts on the matter, I liken that anger as to the same anger I feel when someone mocks or hurts those that I love or behaves badly against beliefs that I feel strongly about. I tend to be able to find that 'justify-able' anger for the pain and suffering of others but not so much myself. That is the way that I always have been, the rape didn't create that.

So I think for me (and this is in part thanks to a certain someone planting this thought), my 'anger' about my rape needs to come from my anger and outrage for others that suffered the same fate that I did. Maybe that is how we live in the the light of God (the God I learned of) and also heal for ourselves. I've been having lots and lots of trouble reconciling that I'm talking and talking and talking about the past (well maybe not actually talking outloud, but having it my head and dreams feels like I'm talking), I need to do something that reflects ME as a whole and not the me that was victimized....

I hope that makes sense to someone else other than me...I can't seem to find accurate words to reflect all that is in my head and heart. My actions speak loudly though, and it is through them that I am going to get past this..

I don't recall praying at all during my rape. I didn't even think of God. It was as if He ceased to exist during that time. This has been a big stuck point that my therapist and I have discussed at length. I don't have all the answers I'd like, but now I know that God was there and that He cared for me. That's comforting beyond words.

Stehfest, what you said reminded me of the analagy that was running through my head when I was thinking about God during my first rape. Now, this is gonna show my wierd side lol so don't judge me...BUT most of us have seen the movie titanic right?? I mean, cheesy, yes, not really a fan at all of the film, but what kept playing through my mind was a scene in the movie when people start realizing the ship really is sinking, and not everyone is going to be saved. The part where the elderly couple is lying in bed together, and the husband is trying to comfort his wife? He just puts his arms around her while she cries, and there is an unspoken agreement that they're going down together, that they can't stop it, but it isn't going to rip them apart, and that they will see it through to the very end TOGETHER. That is how I feel about God's presence with me during both rapes now. He couldn't stop it, or he "chose" not to, for whatever reason, but he was there, holding me, and was letting me know that it was going to happen, but whatever the end result it would be together, me and Him.

Sorry, random insertion here I know, just sort of reminded me of it.

Judy, what you said made perfect sense, thanks for that. I liked it a lot!

"That which does not kill me outright, only serves to make me stronger." I don't worry about how God would feel concerning my anger or hatred against another person because the good-will or opinion of a deity that would let such things happen in this world doesn't matter to me.

I was brought up with a male deity who was out to get me no matter how good I was. I would never measure up or be good enough for Him and every little naughty thought, let alone action, cost me a piece of his caring or love. Then, I was told, in the same breath that He loved me so much that he'd sent His only son to die for my sins...but I still wasn't good enough...I would still be punished for every little sin I committed...it'd just be tempered with "Holy Love" and that it'd not be anywhere near what I would have "deserved" had I not been under the Grace of Salvation.

And then I was molested and raped by my deacon father. Later, I was raped by more than one boyfriend...as well as some of their friends...a couple of them "loaned" me out. During those times, God wasn't anywhere I could see or feel. Not around to protect me, not in my heart, not even in my soul. I'd once again been deserted...by the ONE BEING I'd been promised would never do such a thing...who supposedly loved me more than my earthly parents.

That being said, this is how I deal with my anger and/or hatred against my rapists. I feel it until I no longer have to feel it...until I can let it go and wash my spirit free. Those who hurt me are beneath my consideration...they're animals and don't deserve the label human being. Through doing what I've needed to do in order to heal and trekking through the RAR book, I've found that I no longer have to feel the pain and hatred...the taint of the betrayals perpetrated against me. I can turn my back on those who harmed me and concentrate on the people who truly matter...myself, those I love and care about, and those needing help in order to deal with the same problems I'm dealing with now. I'm slowly, gradually learning how to turn the very weapons used to harm me into tools to help others. This way, what I've had to endure is no longer a burden...it has become a strength, a gift in a way, and a way for me to become a better person.

Yes, I still experience anger and hatred against those who commit those kind of crimes, but my concern isn't so much over whether THEY get the help so many bleeding-hearts think those "poor, sick people" need as it is with their victims and finding what I can do to make sure there's more education out there about prevention and treating those who fall victim to such animals. It's with making sure WE who are survivors stand up and be counted and stand up for those newly wounded and make sure that our laws become more stringent concerning punishment of those who rape and molest. My concern isn't over whether I can forgive...forgiveness is for those who matter to me...they don't any longer...they gave up their right when they raped/molested...but in helping and protecting those in need of it.

I've shared off and on here that I've returned to a much older faith than Christianity. I'm no longer angry or resentful...some may believe so from the words used here, but the tone of voice used with it would make clear that there is no longer anything of the sort within me. I have found a new peace that wasn't inside me before and it's amazing. You, my friends, have helped me to find the courage to explore my true feelings and weigh my inner beliefs. Thank you, all. Many of you have helped me in ways you'd never believe, even if I tried to tell you. May The Goddess bless you all.

Wasit...It makes me feel sad to read about the kind of God you learned about growing up. Given that, it's no wonder you feel the way you do....you have good reason. I wouldn't acknowledge something/someone like that in my life either. I'm not sure what the point of teaching children like that, and it makes me even more thankful that I was raised learning about a VERY different kind of God.

He was my adversary for a while...(well not him so much as my faith and the catholic church). I came around to where I am presently, because I was miserable feeling that adversarial about someone/something that is intended to comfort. My parents were very good role models of individuals drawing alot of comfort from their faith. Were they 'perfect' Catholics....nope not by a long shot (lol) and thank God for that.

I think God would have an issue with some of the homily's I've heard that have pissed me off majorly. But God isn't responsible for ignorant priests....I'm responsible for letting them know where they've erred. And when I'm feeling like I've gathered enough evidence to really lay into that certain priest.....I'm going to send him a strongly worded letter telling him so....I'm the queen of the strongly worded letter....lol If anyone is ever in need of one...let me know, I'd be happy to help!! (That's what christianity/humanity is all about!)

Wasit, what I got distracted from saying is that I respect your beliefs and it sounds as if your newfound way of looking at this very very touchy subject is making you happy and content...THATS what freedom of belief is all about...I'm really happy for you for finding that!

It makes me sad when people judge my beliefs and the beliefs of those around me. Almost always, the judgement is posed as caring and concern, when it's really judgmental belief about a particular religion/faith. I was raised as a catholic, and still believe this today...that it's a persons CHOICE to practice the faith that they choose. It's NOT a hinderance to someones capability to work through hardships and trauma....hinderance comes from ourselves and others doubting the validity of our beliefs...not from the faith we choose to follow.

Stehtfest, thanks for that, what you said about praying during the rape I mean. I asked that question only because it popped up in my head as I was responding to this post...and, in my head...onto the page, lol. But, I do often wonder how many of us...religious...spiritual...or not - how many of us cried out...or whispered quietly to whatever we hoped was there listening. I felt a bit guilty that I didn't immediatley jump to prayer as a first inclination. I guess Wasit's and my father must have come from the same background....I knew of THAT God too. I don't believe they were right, and somehow...from somewhere deep inside me, I always sought to find the loving God I now know exists. I chose to seek out that God, and I know I am way behind the mark in my years on this earth, and my knowledge of God, but I believe. I wish I had thought to pray as a first reaction, but...that I did pray, it made me feel...at times, more alone, because my prayer wasn't answered by my being rescued. Then, I also felt comforted...floating in my thoughts on that piece of dust on the breeze....I felt apart from the devastation taking place on that bed. I don't have the answers the world would accept as an official comment on God and tragedy.....I only have my answer.

I really like Laura's description of the Titanic thing....I wish I had held a thought like that in my mind then. But, there are real days that go by when I don't feel the pain, when I can actually believe it was all just a horrible dream...for seconds it lasts that way...and those seconds are precious.

BTW, folks, I've come to terms and am at peace in accepting that other people have different beliefs than I do...to me, it's not so much WHAT you believe as is THAT you believe. So long as there is something greater than yourself to help in your times of need. Be it a deity, friends, or the power of love and compassion that is all too rarely displayed in this world.

My words here in this post aren't meant to hurt or alienate anyone...they're merely my viewpoint and an expression of what works for me. Kudos to those of you who have come to terms with a God of your understanding...it is truly a source of strength for those who can achieve it. You have your various faiths and your God...I have my Goddess...she is who I can trust today. This is who and what I have become over the years, and it has been a truly special experience. I find no fault with anyone believing differently from myself, so long as they don't demand that I agree with them or have to believe like they do. I have no patience for bigots...racial or spiritual. That being said, I would like to thank each and every one of you for being so accepting of those of us with different beliefs from the "norm" of conformist society. You have all been a great blessing in my life. Hugs to all.

I'm not really sure if i should put this here, or the new post about having anger towards your rapist(s) so i'm going to put it here...because it also contains a God aspect.
I had a long talk with a friend tonight, about a lot of different subjects, but this topic also came up, the anger issue towards the people who hurt us. I have always thought that perhaps something was "wrong" with me or that someday anger was just going to sneak up on me and consume my entire being in one swoop. I have tried to find that anger, to reach deep and trigger the anger, especially in therapy because I feel like that is what is "healthy"...showing anger at those people.

Now, don't get me wrong please, I am angry that it happened. I'm angry that I have to deal with all of this crap now, that its become MY problem, not theirs. A word thats better for me than angry is resentful. I'm angry at the circumstances, but have never been angry AT THEM. Now, as for the "confessions" part of this, I've been afraid to share this (i told judy tonight and her reaction was okay so i thought i'd share). I've been afraid to share this because I feel in a way that I'm letting other people down by feeling "this" way instead of angry.

blah, okay, i feel sad for my rapists. Now, I haven't always felt that way, but its grown in me, especially after meeting all of you guys. I feel sad for my attackers because of my relationship with God. okay now don't go saying this will hinder my recovery (ha ha sorry inside joke) but, would i rather be the victim than the perpetrator? yes. because I'm still right with God. I'm more right than I have ever been with God. I'm rambling...let me re structure now that I have it out in the open...

It saddens me that people would choose so willingly to push themselves so far out of relationship with God. I have pity on those kinds of people, regardless of how they go about doing that...rape, murder, racism, whatever it might be...i have pity on those people. Does my pity keep me from being angry at those people? possibly. But I've decided that I would rather pity them than be angry at them. I don't care if its not clinically "healthy" or "right" to not hate them or be angry at them. They don't register enough on my radar for me to waste my anger, my hate, but why do they register enough to consume some of my pity and sadness for humanity? Perhaps that is my nature, before I care about my relationships with people, I care first and foremost about their relationship with God. Am I sad that I have no relationship with those people? Absolutely not. Am I sad that those people have no relationship or a skewed relationship with God? Yes, and not even for their sake, but for God's sake. I feel sorry for God, that people could be that evil. That people, whom he created in his image, whom he gave the gift of free will to to choose a relationship with God, and twisted it in such a vile way to hurt one of his children. I feel sorry for God, and I pity the people who are so messed up that they are unable to see the results of their actions and the impending fate if they do not seek forgiveness for what they've done.

If those people sought forgiveness from God, and then from me, they would receive it. Do they need to seek forgiveness from me to receive it? Not necessarily, I have forgiven as much as necessary. Do they need to seek forgiveness to be forgiven by God? Yes, absolutely. They have much more repairing to do with Him than they do with me as far as I'm concerned.

Does that make ANY sense at all??