Let's keep going.

What do you NOT like about conventional religion and teachings about God? Where is spiritual depth falling short in the world?

I'd like to toss my two cents in about the whole "God Love Hate...." Thing.
This is how I feel about it, I gain great comfort when I am in prayer or meditation, when I know that I am "talking" to my creator. I know that He does not blame me for what another person CHOSE to do to me. See that's just it, we are all given free will to do as we CHOSE some just seek selfish desires that can and have led to harming another person.
The bible does say that "... God is love" (1John 2:8)
Then looking further into this Proverbs 8:13 reveals that God âespecially hates lofty eyes, a false tongue, hands shedding innocent blood, a heart fabricating hurtful schemes, feet in a hurry to run to badness, a false and lying witness, and one causing contentions among brothers.â
It does not say that God hates the PEOPLE doing it, he hates their actions.
My parents are in a position where they have a child that for years molested me, I've only receintly revealed this to my mother and while she HATES what my brother did and has NOTHING to do with him not even a phone call or a hello on the street, how does one hate their own flesh? I have the same blood running through my veins as my molester brother does so does that mean I'm a bad person too? Not at all, it is about the gift of free choice that God gave each of us and how we choose to use (or abuse) it.
But these are just my humble thoughts on the subject.

I suppose God can't necessarily have human traits....but, man must have God traits, because man was created in His image, right? I mean, if we believe any of the Bible, we have to believe it all...right? Well, in that stream of thought...I have to put my understanding of God in a "format" I can understand. So, it is easier for me to 'see' GTod as a father-figure....not a literal father, but father-like. Or, perhaps more accurate would be, in this life, fathers should be more 'God-like'.

The qotes you used here are the very kinds of scriptures used to thwart me with God...beat me over the head with how He couldn't love me because I was so bad. There is alot of that kind of thing in the Old Testament. But, with Christ, in the New Testament, all the hate sems to be washed away....literally. I don't know how to explain God...man..woman...no gender...and - I don't care. I know there is a God. I don't need to know the gender. In fact, it doesn't hurt me to think of God as 'male'....I don't feel like less of a person IF God is male. I wasn't raped by mankind...just two men...and a woman. So, gender aside, I have no issues about that in relationship to God. I just NEED to believe in God, and in the love of a God for his children. And yes, I do need to see myself in that role...and God in a parental role...because my mind can comprehend that. I don't think in fantasy terms...metaphysicality escapes me - I am a literal thinker. I don't fault anyone who can think that way...it just doesn't work for me.

I am not angry with God. I worry that He is angry with me...and that is hard to live with. I want to understand God better. I want to please God. I know He didn't bring rape to me...or any other bad thing in my life. The Bible says we should come to Him as "little children"...and I think that means with questioning....because the greatest thing a child does is ask "why"...

I have read this thread several times, and have been thinking about it alot. I was raised Catholic, baptized, confirmed etc. My parents are both very religious, and we all went to church every Sunday, twice a week if it was a Holy Day in there somewhere. However at a young age, I must have been 10 or 11, I remember sitting in Sunday School, listening to the nun tell us that God is all good, he loves everyone, and if you want God to love you, you have to be good. If you weren't good, bad things were going to happen to you or to your families. Hmm thats alot to throw on 11 year olds. If I am not good, my family or me will have something bad happen to them. I started doubting what I was hearing, and being taught. I tried to have discussions with my family about my thoughts... lets just say that didn't go over well :) My mother was adamant that I attend church with the family "Until I was 18" apparently at 18, you magically are able to make your own decisions hehe. So, on my 18th birthday, I stopped going. My mother still thinks "it is a phase" that I am going through...its a hell of a long phase lol.

I don't readily admit this to many people,( too many people are put off, they think they need to change me, or they have just stopped being my friends over this) but I don't believe in a God. I have a science mind, I can tell you how the earth formed, I can tell you how a baby is conceived. I have proof of these things. My science mind likes proof. Please, I hope I don't offend anyone here, that is not my intent at all.

I greatly admire people that do believe in a higher power. Sometimes I envy them. It would be nice to have someone to blame, when things aren't going right, or to lean on when times are tough.

I do believe in right and wrong, I believe in good and bad. I have incredible guilt over my rape, bad things happen to bad people... therefore I must have been REALLY bad. I think things happen for a reason... I can not fathom why anyone would abuse another person... I can not think of any reason for that... no outcome or lesson that needs to be learned from it.

From Matt's original post...
If God brings us into interconnection with all life ("Gakina Awiiya"), are we forced to acknowledge that this connection also includes our perpetrators?

I do believe that everyone is connected, and we are all connected to earth, and by the earth. So, yes, in some way I was and still am connected to my rapist. At this stage in my therapy, I can honestly say that I do not have any hatred towards him, I am not angry at him, I have NO feelings towards him. I suppose it is like the ultimate dissociation. I view it like a road.. our paths crossed each other for a very short, very tumultuous time. My path was almost consumed, or overtaken by his. It took 16 years, but my path is being reclaimed by me. Will our lives cross again, I hope not. I have no interest where he is, what he turned out to do with his life. If I do ever see him again, I really don't know what I would do.

At this point in my life, I don't think I could ever forgive him for what he did. Does this make me a bad person... I hope not. I believe that inside every single person there is something to be learned, and that that for the most part people are good. That isn't to say that there are just plain evil people out there, they certainly do exist. I don't know what I am supposed to learn from him. Is it not to trust anyone? Is it to run and hide? Is it to bury things deep inside me and hope they don't resurface? Is it that I am a bad person? He certainly taught me those lessons well.

This is a very thought provoking post. I have really enjoyed reading all the different responses.

First, I don't think you will offend anyone by saying you don't believe in a God. After all, I requested, and welcome, diverse points of view. I tend to straddle between being a scientific skeptic to having a mystic's view of spirituality; I think something very spiritually profound pervades the scientific functions of the world. For example, I am a Christian but not a Biblical literalist.

I do think one of the more damaging aspects of faulty religion is precisely what you describe: the false link between personal morality and whether you are spared trauma. This "magical thinking" is taught to children (and adults!) but is tragic when an abuse victim uses it to try to work out just why s/he was hurt: "did I do something wicked?"

In a conversation with some friends last night, I think I settled on a very similar point of view of yours as you describe the complete indifference toward your rapist now. The group proposed that "hate" might not necessary mean an obsession with pervasive dark feelings against a person, but rather the act of rejecting a betrayer (abuser, rapist) from their former place in the interconnected "web of life" (I don't like the new-age sound of that term, but I don't have a better one). In other words, we exclude them from being acknowledged within the creation we are connected to; they are discarded from our hearts and minds and have no further place with us. I like this because it doesn't embody a wish for harm against another person, it doesn't prolong negative obsessions, and it doesn't consume the survivor with the emotion. It simply becomes a blunt decision.

By the way, one definition of good mental health is "the acceptance of reality as it actually is, and the ability to find a lesson in any experience." Notice how it has nothing to do with being a paragon of perfection, or never failing, but rather the ability to honestly face a situation and grow from it. I do not believe God imposes pain or trauma as a teaching experience, but I do believe that people who have recovered from trauma have done so through a years-long process of exploring their experiences to rediscover their inner strength and worth.

Solstice- I too was raised Catholic and I am still practicing. I have 3 children who are not a big fan of the Catholic Mass every Sunday (what child is, really?) I also make them go to church with us as a family and I will expect them too until they are 18. The age of 18 isn't magical, but there has to be some kind of defining time because we can't control our children forever. That just happens to be the age deemed appropriate by society for a person to be able to make their own decisions responsibly. My reasoning is this: I have not met too many people as adults who have gone out to seek a religious lifestyle. Yes, of course there are some adults who do, but I feel it's my responsibilty as a parent to teach my children EVERYTHING I know about the Catholic religion to give them a good foundation. This is because of exactly what you said about Sunday school and the nun. That nun was wrong. Plain and simple. Clergy are not infallable, they are human. Any Catholic knows and jokes about carrying "Catholic guilt" with you. I don't think of it as guilt, I think of it as accountability. I wish your parents knew you felt this way or had the tools to step in and to help you with this (no disrespect or slam to your parents intended). Thats why education should be left up to your church entirely. This is one of the things I wanted to address when Matt asked about possible problems with conventional religious teachings. They are taught by man. Sometimes man doesn't have the best words to explain somethings. But I'm pretty sure if you asked that nun if you deserved to be raped, she would have said no. God, I hope she would have said no. And, the church also recognizes "Church law" as well as "Gods law" for this very reason. Teachings can be mistranslated by either party. But, as the mass says, it's the "mystery of faith". We know deep down inside what is wrong and right. Organized religion isn't about being in a club. It's about being organized to better have support in place and to have an outlet for celebrating and receiving sacraments that will only facilitate your relationship with our Lord. I hope you don't feel like I'm picking on you ;) I just really wanted to verbalize those thoughts and your sharing let to a great intro to what Matt was asking. I also don't mean to try and "defend" the Catholic religion. That is just where my experience is and I believe it can and should be applied to any organized religion.

On forgiveness: I absolutely agree with Matt. It's all about good mental health. Acceptance is something I really struggle with, but on a couple levels. I hate my adaptive behavior because it reminds me of weakness and the trauma. On the other hand, if I could go back and change the past, I don't think I would (yeah, I said it). My life is so wonderful now. I am truly blessed, and out of fear of the butterfly effect, I wouldn't do a thing to change my family or my life. Like Matt said, it's been years-long, but I have discovered my strength and worth. This was my cross to bear. Not sent from God, but out of circumstance from somone-elses free will. And what is life without suffering? What value can anything hold? I do not blame God. I DO blame my rapist however for the bad, but I cannot for the good. I know it's paradoxal, but hey, I can't have it all figured out yet.

As far as Gods relationship with my rapist, I don't get involved. Every person has a story. I personally don't really care what his is, and that's why I don't even like the word forgiveness in this sense. I'm just letting go(or still trying), but I haven't forgived. I haven't said "I acknowledge what you did, but I won't allow it to hurt me anymore." It will always hurt me and I will always put it back on him where it deserves. If he is truly sorrowful, then good for his soul. If he is not, that will just drive me crazy. Since I have no way of knowing, I have to dissociate, otherwise I'd go crazy. To me, it's not about whether God lends a blind eye. If he truly can neel before God and weep for his sins, God will be mercyful. But God's no fool ;) True evil can and does exist and seeks no forgiveness; therefore there can be no mercyful relationship with God.

Just my 2 cents! Hope I didn't sound too harsh. I get a little passionate :)

I meant education should NOT be left up to the church entirely!!!

I am not religious, but sprititual and analytical person. I deeply respect those that have faith; I am even jealous of it. My issues with most organized religion is that it rarely respects anyone that is not within in thier stringent guidelines of "correct". They are contradictory! Speaking of forgiveness yet judging harshly and can be blatant with their hypocrisy. I know these are men and not God so they have human failings. I have been on this road before...and kind of my point. In my humble opinion the Bible, Qur'an, Talmud, and Scientology are written works that provide a moral compass and exert social control within a framework of mystery. I am not saying there is no God(s). I am saying that maybe man (and ego) created these works and they are only beautifully written books (scratch Scientology on that).

in the book "one" by richard bach he tackles this issue within the novel.

He tells the story of him and his wife falling in to a paralell universe where to get out they have to keep landing their plane at differents parts of their history and future, they also find themselves in places that challenge their strongest beliefs their thinking and all these places provide the opportunity for self knowledge and learning. (very quick synopsis).

In one chapter he finds himself watching in the distance an old man, and they walk toward him when they get to him they read the pages in his hand. These pages speak of a beautiful love and respect which moves both himand his wife to tears of sheer joy. When they hand back the pages the monk throws them in the fire and they burn to dust. Both horrified they turn to the monk and cry why ~ so much good could be done in the world with this. The monk replys you have already learned what they say, people will learn through you and not the words written in any book. The monk then guides them through the possibilities of how it could be misunderstood and the troubles this book could cause, blood shed tears and in the end they would perhaps, become martyrs and wars break out because it was them that had become more important than than any words on the page.

This is not in way shape or form an accurate account it is though a great book to read, it is uplifting moving challenging but it is also light hearted and fictional. I'd recommend it to anyone. Exit 109 your post reminded of not just that bit but a lot more of the book ~ thankyou.

Deb

Deb -

The book sounds fascinating. I ordered it through paperbackswap.com. (If you read a lot its a great way to "recycle" your books.) I am starting The Divine Matrix by Gregg Braden.

This is the Amazon synopsis:

Between 1993 and 2000, a series of groundbreaking experiments revealed dramatic evidence of a web of energy that connects everything in our lives and our worldâthe Divine Matrix. From the healing of our bodies, to the success of our careers, relationships, and the peace between nations, this new evidence demonstrates that we each hold the power to speak directly to the force that links all of creation. What would it mean to discover that the power to create joy, to heal suffering, and bring peace to nations lives inside of you? How differently would you live if you knew how to use this power each day of your life? Join Gregg Braden on this extraordinary journey bridging science, spirituality and miracles through the language of The Divine Matrix.

It was recommended to me and has good reviews.

Sharon

Organized religion is based on either one person's or a group of people's interpretations of what a "holy text" says regarding a God or gods and his/her/their relationship with mankind. Even the King James Version of the Holy Bible is exactly that...it was commissioned by a man (King James) and was tailored to fit his viewpoint...those "scholars" hedged their bets and created a "holy text" that would cater to their sovereign's way of believing. As well as all the other religious writings throughout the ages. So, my question is this...perhaps man wasn't created in God's image so much as man created a God in his image...an amalgamation of what each believed mankind should strive to attain. A perfection of purpose, spirit, and soul in order to create and reach a "higher self." Maybe what all these writings are have been misinterpreted like the synopsis of the story we were given of the book "One" and this has been what's been responsible for all the mental and emotional suffering brought on by people trying to conform to one "faith" or another.

More people have been killed in the name of one god or another over the years than for any other reason...even the Holocaust didn't accumulate so many victims. Religion has been used as justification for genocide and atrocities which would make a decent person refund last week's lunch if they read some of those accounts. The Inquisition, the Crusades, the biblical account of the Children of Israel's campaigns against the populace of the "Promised Land", and many others. I used to think, "If these are examples of God's love, then please leave me out...I'd rather be ignored."

This and many other reasons throughout my life (Including a post on RAR a while back regarding God in which I was allowed to be VERY angry...thank you all for your tolerance...you all helped me to eventually find my way) has caused me to reevaluate my take on a Higher Power and I've come to realize that the older faiths had something really going for them. There were several that taught acceptance, peace, and love in a way that mankind has forgotten over the years and through the "teachings" of the Bible, Koran, and Torah. The older faiths also taught the responsibility for life and the consequences involving our choices throughout our journey on this world. As a result of returning to the practice of a much older faith than Christianity, I've been able to turn aside much of my anger, hatred, and guilt over what has happened to me in the past. There is once again a "magic" and stimulating mystery to my life that has been missing for many, many years.

I appreciate the many contributions here about your various viewpoints on religion itself. But I'd also like to return the focus more specifically to how religion guides you as you deal with hate and anger toward your perpetrators. Do you think hatred toward your rapists is warranted? Is it acceptable, or something your religious faith tells you to resist or overcome? Do you think God loves your rapist? If so, how do you deal with that?

In a nutshell, I think any loving, Merciful God can totally understand us hating someone who did so much harm and caused so much pain to us. But it does seem like the same God wants us to work toward ending the hate and finding forgiveness...and apparently, this is to do US more good. This is to uplift our own spirits and evolve us toward some kind of higher self-actualization.

I think of a lot of examples of this happening, most recently, the Amish community where a man entered a school and started shooting, killing many children. The Amish families--whose shock, anguish and grief I can only begin to imagine--forgave the shooter and reached out to HIS family! I mean, that took a lot, but the amazing thing is, they did it so quickly. But, they weren't just trying to "look good" to the world since it was on the news. You see, they have values that tell them that THEY NEEDED to do this because the reconciliation was something their very souls needed as a part of their healing.

Now, in the case of rape, I certainly don't feel like I need any kind of 'reconciling' with my rapist, nor do I expect any other person to feel that way. But what I find I need is reconciling with the human race, particularly men. How can humans DO THIS to one another? Are we all that sick? Should we nuke the planet and be done with it because we suck so bad??

Day by day, little things occur to restore my faith in humanity, and also more sick, bad things happen daily. The thing is, the really amazing little things that happen seem to either be the most mind-boggling coincidences, OR, they are being guided gently by a benevolent Spirit.

It is like that Spirit is trying to get me to see, "look, People are not all that bad; men are not all that bad. In fact, there are some truly incredible, wonderful ones." And that is my reconciliation.

Wow! Can you see why I'm so in love with StarbuckDifranco? (for those who don't know, she's my wife.)

Yes I CAN. Now those are words to live by. God aside...faith aside...what she described is true of every faith or none at all. It's the humanity that we all share. Great writing....looks like there are two writers in that household! I liked it....ALOT!