That sucks! I posted a reply...and the thingie read.."there is no such post in this group"....how'd you like that?! Maybe I should re-think it...

I want to reply to this. But I need time to conjure my essay ^_^

Well.....in reading this, I would ask a question. If a loving mother has two children...and one child is a wonder; an exemplary child in every way. The other child was sensitive and cuddly as it matured, but became resistant and defiant as it aged....does that loving mother turn her heart away from the second child? I suppose what I mean by this is, if we see God as a Father figure....can we also see Him as loving both the injured...and the perpetrator of that harm? I know my knowledge if God used to feel so sure...firm. But, the idea I had formed about God was very srict and unwavering. I don't think that is how God is supposed to be perceived. I think....if we have a wholesome and healthy view of what a "Daddy" should be...that it is in that spirit we should attempt to see God....like a Daddy who would bind our wounds....hold us closely....wipe away our tears...cuddle us...swing us high in the air and let us laugh in the comfort of His arms. If THAT is the vision of Daddy....and if THAT is the vision of God - then how can we fit into that view the acts of one who would harm us? I believe there is forgiveness available to all. I do not believe the word "tolerance" fits into my view of God....not nearly as well as "Grace" does.

Thanks for this post Matt. I need things to think about. I need things that are separate from rape....and this is the kind of post that allows for the broad range of beliefs we each hold to be shared. I admit my need to learn more about God in a theological sense....but, I really want to know in my heart. I look forward to the responses here.

"if we see God as a father figure" is a heavy proposition, too. We could branch off into a discussion, "is God a male?"

To continue your allegory, though, I think many parents would react differently. It's hard to use human syllogisms to explain God's personality, but I do think it would be likely that many parents would at least banish the waywardly-abusive child. (for the record, I also do believe in repentance and forgiveness)

I found these verses online:

* Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
* Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
* Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
* Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
* Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

Apparently, God is capable of hate as it relates to persons who sow evil and harm to innocents. But now we need to know that the word "hate" means in these verses, since it may not have the same connotation it does today. Some translation suggest the intent was "cast out" or "banish" the person. It was more about rejection than emotionally despising them. Still, it would seem on first glance that perhaps there is room in a spiritual life for [banishing, rejecting, casting away] an abuser.

This is something I have struggled with since day one. My biggest question is why. Why? And then in therapy having a Christian therapist has been a big struggle, I am also a preachers kid brought up in the Nazarene church (Protestant) with all the rules and regulations and just started realizing how I don't remember in all the rules being taught that God is love. Not that he loves me or you or the perpetrator but that he is love period. So in therapy my therapist in the beginning decided that I should tell my story (don't mean to get off track here) and then immediatley forgive my rapist. I read all these books he gave me on forgviveness tons of them and still was stuck on this forgiveness thing. Still am. I struggle with forgiving someone who violated me and the fact that I'm told if I don't forgive him that I will not be forgiven by my father in heaven (the Lords Prayer) Since my stroke I have a hard time comprehending things and remembering things I thought I knew, so I am trying to learn all over again. Here's what I believe so far and I'm still learning all over again. I believe that God didn't let this happen to me but that he was so very sad for me when it did happen. I believe that God is a loving God and that he probably does love my rapist (the person if someone so chooses to call him that) but that God does not like or even love what he did to me or anyone else for that matter. I believe that vengence is mine sayeth the Lord, but I also believe that vengence is mine sayeth Barb! My problem is I don't have a face, physical being to lash out at so I have to believe that one day his will come. I struggle in this alot. I have a christian friend who was molested as a child by her step father and somehow she forgave him and had to believe that that Lord would take care of it. The man is in a nursing home has lost both of his limbs from drinking and is miserable and she believes that vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord. Who wouldn't. I wish I could come to that point of forgiveness I just don't see it right now and I feel that by my concentrating on forgiving him rather than my healing gives him power once again. Right now I'm still learning about a loving God and not the do's and dont's God which I was brought up with. Hope that wasn't too off track.

I really don't think this applies to me at all...
I mean I read it and this really isn't my issue with God...sooo

Here is how my father used to explain things to me...yeah I know what you are thinking lol..hear me out and if I am wrong call me on my bullshit PLEASE lol

God calls all of us his children right? If that is so then the relationship and love is the same as it should be between a father and his children.
If you fathered a rapist...would you hate him? Even if he committed this act against another of your children. I am sure you'd feel a lot of things but the bottom line...he would be your child and you'd love the child hate the actions...am I right?

My family was very strict hellfire and brimstone southern baptist... all the wrath of God included.
And then my mom "sampled" a whole bunch of other spiritual stuff when I was growing up... all kinds of stuff... most of the different protestant religions, and then all kinds of wackier stuff too (psychics, channeling, aliens... if someone has claimed its true my mom probably believed it and sent them money)...
I REALLY struggle with this spirituality stuff.
After I was molested when I was 6, and had to testify... and I lied about what happened... "god hates liars" echoed in my mind for years and years...
Dr. Miller says that god doesn't hate any children no matter what...
which isn't what I was taught as a kid... my granny made it clear that even the little brand new babies that die before-they-accept-jesus-christ-as-their-personal-lord-and-savior are going to burn in hell forever. Seriously, I asked her about it when I was a teenager... what a horrible religious belief! I have difficulty believing that anyone could think such things, but I know its true, my granny didn't lie about that kind of stuff...
Wow...
I feel like I'm confused and rambling and making no sense whatsoever...
I'm going to leave it to the rest of you to bring more thought and wisdom to this discussion.

Yes, but I don't think God fathered (or parented, or created) any rapist. I believe rapists create themselves in place of where was once an innocent person.

I just don't think a rape victim is offending God in any way by having resentments toward her perpetrators.

Daisysue, here is an idea that occurred to me while reading your post: "God is love. Not that he loves me or you or the perpetrator but that he is love period." Perhaps, then, this is not a call to love every person, but rather an acknowledgment that when we DO love, God exists in that relationship. Maybe God exists in the presence of love, rather than God issuing a binding commandment *that* we love. We choose who to love, and how to love them, and those choices generate an invitation to God to exist between us. This might explain Gakina Awiiya ("we are related") much better. It allows me to recognize God in and through the relationships we have among loving people, without having to accept the distasteful notion that we are also spiritually bound up with our traumatic betrayers.

I think that whatever spiritual background you come from, the healthy way to deal with strong emotions like anger and hate is not to try to suppress or deny them, that will only make them fester - but it's more helpful to try and listen to them, understand what these feelings are trying to teach us. Now that sounds so easy on paper, doesn't it?

I suppose it's about having enough faith in *yourself* that you know you can carry some very uncomfortable emotions and find a safe way to express them, even use them as a force for good or making positive changes.

I know I used to be terrified of feeling that kind of rage or hatred in myself. Having grown up seeing my mother's mental illness, and realising that she was clearly in a lot of distress herself for all her abuses, the message throughout my childhood was that there was no healthy, constructive way to deal with these feelings - just find some other 'safe' target to take it all out on!
The thought that I could end up becoming the same kind of person was a horrifying prospect, so of course I learned to bury a lot of my feelings very deep. But we all know that that strategy will only work for so long.

Anyway this seems like it's in danger of rambling, my point was just to say I know just how hard it can be to accept anger or even hatred as something you can express safely or even use as a force for good. It certainly wasn't something that conventional religion taught me when I was growing up.

Rather than seeing God, or gods plural as punishing a criminal or an abuser; an idea that I've come across in other cultures is that a person can do something so terrible (such as rape, murder, or other extreme abuses of power) that they place *themselves* outside of the web of life, in effect they cut themselves off from humanity. Physical death might not follow on immediately, but spiritually speaking they've 'cursed' themselves.
That's a concept that makes more sense to me.

Hi everyone!

I know I havenât posted in a while, but I love this post. I for one do not believe that God or âmy higher powerâ is male. I believe that my higher power is androgynous.

I also do not believe that my higher being created my rapist to rape. I think free will and our culture created my rapist.

I do not feel guilty for hating my rapist because I believe that my higher power would understand the feelings that I do have, and have every right to feel them. It took me a long time to get to this point.

I believe that my higher power forgives, but I think that it is a choice that my rapist will make either in this life, or on the other side. But I also believe in reincarnation, and I think when our souls go to the other side we make a choice to go to the light, or we are sent back here again. I believe that the lessons our souls are supposed to learn are not all learned in one life.

I was brought up Catholic, and I donât want to offend anyone, but it wasnât for me I knew in my heart that I believed unconventionally.. I was blessed that I had a father that told me that when I was grown, I could make my own spiritual choices and nothing was forced upon me.

Hugs,
Jen

I am new but would like to chime in. I am not a religious person but was advised to read The Shack. I did and it did not give me a new relationship with God or change my world. It did illuminate one thing - my fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of forgiveness. I grew up believing that if you forgave someone you open your heart and everything was okay; sort of a metaphysical "do over".

"Forgiveness is not about forgetting. It is about letting go of another person's throat. Forgiveness is first for you, the forgiver to release you from something that will eat you alive; that will destroy your joy and your ability to love fully and openly."

That was like a neon sign...I have held on to rage & hate as my safety net. So afraid that if I Iet go he could hurt me again....not realizing that holding on was anchoring me to him, a past I can not change and sapping my healing energy. I will always hate him but I am choosing to limit the space I allow him to have in my life; has has already taken to much of me.

Sharon

Phoenix, what you wrote is so close to being word-for-word for an essay of mine I wrote last week it's eerie. I mean, you wrote some things SPOT ON, down to the letter, of things I had typed! I was wondering when I read your post, "did I write this somewhere else, and is she quoting it?"

The concept of an androgynous God is interesting. Unfortunately, our culture has made the word "androgyny" into a parody of either men who are foppish dandies with stereotyped "gay" demeanor, or women who are butch. The true meaning of the word, though, does not harbor these stereotypes, and in graduate school remember discussing research that said that as people become more androgynous in their personalities, they also became more emotionally intelligent and capable of divergent thinking. One result of education, for example, was to "androgynize" people.

What this meant was that people became less polarized into stereotypes (as opposed to becoming a stereotype!), which freed them into accessing emotions, philosophies, behaviors, strategies, and points of view from a broader range than is usually allowed by culture. The crux of it is that God, in this way of seeing, does not become genderless, but rather gender-FULL, encompassing the wholeness of male and female.

Tribal religions are trying to suggest this when they describe the Creator as "mother earth and father sky." The Bible uses the pronoun "he" to describe Yahweh, but also uses many, many feminine terms to describe God too. Tribal religions tend to use the term "Creator" for God, and tribal names for God are also almost always gender-less ("great mystery", "great spirit", "spirit that moves", "breathkeeper", etc.)

Phoenix, what you wrote is so close to being word-for-word for an essay of mine I wrote last week it's eerie. I mean, you wrote some things SPOT ON, down to the letter, of things I had typed! I was wondering when I read your post, "did I write this somewhere else, and is she quoting it?"

The concept of an androgynous God is interesting. Unfortunately, our culture has made the word "androgyny" into a parody of either men who are foppish dandies with stereotyped "gay" demeanor, or women who are butch. The true meaning of the word, though, does not harbor these stereotypes, and in graduate school I remember discussing research that said that as people become more androgynous in their personalities, they also became more emotionally intelligent and capable of divergent thinking. One result of education, for example, was to "androgynize" people.

What this meant was that people became less polarized into stereotypes (as opposed to becoming a stereotype!), which freed them into accessing emotions, philosophies, behaviors, strategies, and points of view from a broader range than is usually allowed by culture. The crux of it is that God, in this way of seeing, does not become genderless, but rather gender-FULL, encompassing the wholeness of male and female.

Tribal religions are trying to suggest this when they describe the Creator as "mother earth and father sky." The Bible uses the pronoun "he" to describe Yahweh, but also uses many, many feminine terms to describe God too. Tribal religions tend to use the term "Creator" for God, and tribal names for God are also almost always gender-less ("great mystery", "great spirit", "spirit that moves", "breathkeeper", etc.)

I also like that idea of forgiveness, and I used to teach it in my groups.

This is really fascinating and if I might add a seemingly never ending subject with so many differing outcomes and hypothosies!

I think when it comes to god and rape, hate and love, faith and belief, it is important to fully consider how much thought the person has had on this subject. What I mean by that is whether their belief is based on taught beliefs from sunday school/ church or a personal more reflective set of personal choices about god and faith before the rape/abuse.

In my case, I grew up knowing what faith was for my parents, both with slightly differing versions of christianity. I gained a knowledge as a youngster at sunday school, but my parents decided against having me christened as a babyas it was their feelings that it was my choice as I grew up and not a decision they were prepared to make for me. So in one sense I was given the basics and for long time the importance of god was neither here nor there. As a young teen I found myself searching and began to take more intrested in lifes existential questions. I joined the local church and its youth group and for a good couple of years attended regularly chose to be baptised and comitment ed (my commitment) to god and the church. However not long before I was raped I made another decision, I realised that my decisions were not based upon whether god could help me to find the right path but a deep routed trust in my ability to make a decision that felt "right" or a recognition that when I wasn't following others rules they may be consequences. So just like that I stopped going to church. However a few months later I was raped and it proved my thinking was wrong and god was punishing me for my desertion. Given that I called out realising the error of my ways, tried bargaining and all fell on deaf ears it is both clear to me to understand a where a large area of self blame and difficulties in believing in myself stemmed from in relation to the delicate subject of faith. Not just faith in god but in myself. My feelings that there was no god became the overalling factor because in all of this I had lost my "specialness" and gained an "almighty" difference to others. God had singled me out for my dessertion. He sent my perp to show me the error of my ways and that was my punishment and cross to bear.

Like a lot of the healing i have faced this was tough. I had to acknowledge there might be a god, and that I was emmensley angry with him. I then had to recognise that my anger so long turned on myself was not projected at him either. My dilema if I face the fact that it was neither gods fault nor my fault, I could not escape the cold harsh reality I was a victim of rape.

The conflict then becoming I am responsible for what happens in my life verses I do not have the power to stop certain events.

As my faith now I believe as I did when I was 16, that I live by my morals that are in line with words of god and that because I don't praise him or attend church he knows I cherish and am grateful for the smaller and beautiful parts of creation in those moments where I bend over to smell the sweet scent of a rose etc.

As for the relatioship between god and the perpetrator I don't believe god would turn his back on a lost sheep, sick sadistic and evil as they may be in my opinion they to have their stories of which we never get to hear. (This is not forgiveness on my part but a recognition that they have a need they can only meet through violence and control) god will always hope for them like he did for me that they find the "right" path.

Great post got me thinking.

Hugs to everyone

Deb

This is good, and alot to take in :)