HurtGuy,

I hear you, man.

Spiky,

I would have a couple of recommendations for you. One, first and foremost, if I were you and was serious about understanding all this, get a copy of "Not Just Friends." It lays out real well what is going on with these types of relationships.

But I'll pull this from it, and this is what many CSs don't get in why even not telling is damaging the relationship, and will keep damaging it until you get it out in the open and work through it, painful as that is. In a relationship, there is an understanding that there is a greater degree of intimacy and bonding. Emotionally, socially, legally (for marriage), spiritually (even if you aren't religious), and physically. In a healthy marriage, those intimate bonds define the strength and health of a couple's relationship.

When you give any of that to another person, it takes away from your relationship with the partner. Giving away elements of an intimate bond that should exist between two people in a committed relationship damages those bonds. Shirley Glass, author of "Not Just Friends," puts it this way. When you do that, and hold secrets you don't want your partner to know, both activities create a wall between you and your partner and open a window to another person. So even discussing intimate marital issues with someone else is a form of, or at a minimum, the seed of having an affair.

I experienced this back in the day I mentioned I had opportunity. A coworker and me chatted during down times, and at one point, she started telling me about the troubles she was having with her boy friend. I honestly don't recall if I mentioned the trouble I was having in my marriage. I usually wouldn't talk to someone else about that, but I may have mentioned it, without going into detail. But at some point it suddenly dawned on me, "This is how it starts. We start sharing our relationship troubles, I start looking like the understanding man she always wanted, and one thing will lead to another until we're neck deep." I could see it happening in her responses and eyes. So I stopped responding to her complaints about her boyfriend, other than nodding and being in general, sympathetic. But I realized right then, if I had wanted to, I could have had a relationship with her. But I had to stop being responsive to her in that area.

The other thing is you might want to talk with my wife. Personal messages or maybe she'll come and say something about it here. But the only thing I knew at first is that she was flirting with a man at one of the businesses she cleaned. She talked about it as just playing around, nothing serious. I tried to explain to her, to no avail apparently, that for the guy, it is not playing. You are sending him signals that you are interested in him. Your "no" means little if you keep flirting. What I didn't know is it quickly turned into sex chatting, and she never revealed that to me until I discovered it all on my own.

Is what you are doing wrong? Different people will have different answers. But I think you'll find most BSs and even many CSs who have extracted themselves from the fog of the affairs successfully, will say that it is damaging to your partner and your relationship with him/her. For reasons I list above.

Can you be forgiven. Most definitely. Heck, I forgave my wife despite two local guy affairs and multiple online sex-chat affairs. But that is in large part because, 1) she stopped doing it. 2) she was truly repentant and demonstrated that with how hard she has worked to heal me and herself over the past 11 months, and 3) because I was able to arrive at that point as well, despite the damage it did to me and my understanding and perception of our relationship.

But on the EA vs. PA thing, and it seems this is true for the majority of guys, I'll relate briefly what happened on dday. The day before, I noticed two email addresses she'd texted pictures to on the phone bill. The email addresses had the men's names in them. When I asked her who X and Y was, she was stone-cold silent and didn't say a thing. I thought, "Okay, this is not good." So the next evening I set up a key logger on her computer. I suspected she was sex chatting with other guys. And I was right about that. When she went to bed that night, I opened up the log and started reading. My suspicions were quickly confirmed. She was even sharing with a guy online that we'd had good sex the night before, I think it was. Maybe even that night. Don't recall. And she started chatting with a second guy and did some talk about their project. Apparently he claimed to be writing a sex novel and was using her input as how to make the woman in her novel feel. So he'd write out sex scenes and she would tell him what she liked.

So I thought to myself, "Okay, she is having chats of a sexual nature with other men online as I feared." While I knew that was bad, and I would need to confront her about it, and see if I couldn't talk some sense into her, I was emotionally okay. I shook my head and kept reading.

Then he started talking about how he's planning on cheating on his wife because she won't give him any sex and he's getting to a breaking point. Well, it so happened my wife was into a six week affair, full blown, herself. And though she'd never talked about it on line, providentially she decided to tell this guy that she too was having an affair.

I read those lines and was in total shock. I read a little further, and it was clear she didn't mean just sex chatting, but having sex with another guy. I had to stop reading at that point. I was floored. I sat in our living room chair, saying to myself over and over, "No, no, no, no, it can't be true..." I was in full denial/shock. But no matter how much I didn't want it to be true, there were her words. So I finally went back to reading after getting past my initial shock, and she went on to describe what she liked about sex with him and sex with me, how we did it differently, but she liked both, etc. etc. etc. When I finished reading it all, I still couldn't believe it. All I saw was almost 29 years of marriage swirling down the drain (this happened 3 days before our 29th anniversary). And I would have never in a million years believed that my wife who I trusted all these years, would deceive me so fully like that.

That was as traumatic a day as I've ever had in my life. It has totally changed my life, our marriage, and who we are as people. Like HurtGuy said, I could have dealt with the sex chat easier, but the rest of it, was like taking a knife and stabbing me in the back. The loss I felt that day is indescribable. I don't think it would have been as bad for me if all I'd found was her sex chatting. That is an affair, and would have to be dealt with. You don't give away your marital bonds to other people. That's stealing what you've committed to one person in marriage. But the emotional impact when I discovered that she was having sex with other men, and had given that first man several months before a BJ, was the equivalent to getting hit with a Mac truck.

One thing I said to myself pretty much sums up the feelings I had, the loss of what I thought I had. I asked myself after the initial shock wore off enough to think, "Who is this woman I'm married to?" She wasn't who I thought she was. She'd changed, and I no longer knew her. Thankfully, she has successfully come back to me. But still much different than before. In some ways, that is good and necessary. In others, there is a pain that will always be there. A scar that will always testify to the serious hurt she inflicted on both me and herself.

AnotherHurt: "i would forgive it. Personally, I would consider it, by comparison, much less painful."

Thank you. I just want to know if there is some hope.

You also said: "But, one, it is interesting that you are really invested in having others see it the same way (justification?, lessening?), and, two, it doesn't likely matter in the big pict"

I agree, it shouldn't matter in the big picture, but for what it's worth: my interest in having others understand my motives and reasoning regarding online sex chats lies in the fact that it can create unnecessary problems if everyone assumes that online chatting automatically leads to in-person sex. People saying "oh but you would have hooked up with that person eventually" makes me feel like I'm on the hook for doing something I didn't actually do nor intend to do.

I will go ahead and point out another very strong incentive that I had to keep it anonymous: once the other person knows who you are, they have the power to expose you. I would absolutely never trust that to a stranger! This was not something that originated as a platonic friendship. Or any kind of friendship. There was no banter, no social rapport. Trust me on this. I found them on a site searching specifically for someone interested in chatting online about this particular fetish. I said right off the bat, chats only. No webcam, no hookups. If this person got hit by a car or eaten by dogs, not only would I have no way of finding out, I wouldn't give a damn. He (it?) is just words on a screen. Call it interactive porn if that helps. Or think of it like having sex with a hooker -- no relationship, strictly business.

Spikey you are asking bs for their perspective on this and wether or. It it is forgivable and the short answer is yes all things are forgivable but for the sake of discussion to better understand the mindset of one being cheated on , then details help. Details being your. Inset of your actions as well Ashli's. It is never cut and dry.

I'm giving you my opinion on what you have said here. It isn't as simple as this is forgivable and this is not. I'm basing my responses on what you are saying or maybe not saying. I'm sorry of that seems like you are being made to feel as though you have to prove a case but if you want an honest discussion I'm giving you one. If you want a simple answer then yes it is forgivable and yes in the sceme of things it is a lesser offense to me.

Is it the on line or the fetish that is giving him reason to question if he can be with you? There are still details that make it difficult to understand you story. If it was a fetish that he never knew about and was given 2 shocks at once then maybe that is part of it. Not sure but either way I hope whatever is best will be

No, the fetish was not a factor in my partner's decision. I had never discussed it before but it didn't upset him. He only said that he is heartbroken that I'd chosen to seek out someone to chat with about it instead of just looking for porn about it.

What upset him was the deception. He had actually suspected I was chatting with someone online, based on changing schedule patterns on my part, staying up later etc. I played innocent when he confronted me initially. He feels doubly betrayed by the lies.

The details consist of me posting to a fetish site that I wanted to chat about something very specific. People responded but I only carried on a dialogue with one of them. The rest, I could sense, were not really into it, I think they just wanted to sex chat with somebody about anything at all. I said chat only, no webcam, phone or live hookups. This person accepted that and we jumped right in. Our interactions consisted of describing scenarios that turned us on. There was no smalltalk or exchange of personal details, facts about our lives, nothing like that. We talked dirty to each other until we were sufficiently turned on to gratify ourselves. This happened a few dozen times over the course of about 2 months. I was frankly getting burned out on it.

Then in a sobering moment I got scared when I realized one of the photos I sent of myself had enough of my face in it to be a concern if it ever got circulated. I started to have panic attacks about it. I couldn't eat or sleep and my partner was very concerned. I told him it wasn't his problem and I would have to figure it out for myself. He wondered why I couldn't talk to him about it and naturally became very very suspicious. He persisted very aggressively and eventually I couldn't lie to him about it. His initial reaction was to leave me on the spot. After thinking about it he told me that he would need some time to decide whether to stay a couple. For another month we lived together as we had before, not talking about it much. I became agitated one weekend and told him I couldn't stand the uncertainty anymore. He said if I was forcing him to make a decision on the spot then it would have to be no. That's when I started staying elsewhere. It's been about 3 weeks now since that happened. He found out about the cheating about 2 1/2 months ago.

About the fetish: I won't say what it is specifically, but enacting my fantasies with a real life partner isn't an effective solution. I have tried it before and it was awkward and unfulfilling. They are very abstract and being with a person physically interferes with the imaginary scenario too much.

Diception can be heartbreaking and change we see the other person. He may need more time to grasp his new perspective on you. My H and I were separated when he first told me of his Infidelity and the child born of that.

I told him and the counselor that I knew what I wanted. I wanted to rebuild and have a great marriage. It was my hope my goal my dream. I needed time and effort on his part and mine as well to know if that was possible. He did on a few occassions try to rush me and want and clear yes or no and I said if I'm backed into a corner then I will go with no.

For me it was the kids that kept me in the maybe zone. I didn't want to have him move back in and tell the kids we were back together unless I was sure because if it didn't work and I needed space again it would mean divorce and no further back and fourth. He gave me my space and I was able to come to my yes on my time.

It wouldn't have been possible without his remorse and understanding of my pain.

Have you guys gone to couples counseling? It's an idea that may help him express himself in a safe environment with a mediator to help both of you get your points across.

Thank you for your insight and advice. He has said exactly what you say, that I am a different person to him now.

I did bring up the subject of counseling. His reply was that he would only go to couples counseling with me if we were a couple, and he hasn't made up his mind about whether that's what he wants. In the meantime he is not open to discussions about it. To him, we are no longer a couple at all.

That, unfortunately, is the problem when you've been deceptive about something like this. Assuming this is all you ever did, which is still taking from the relationship as I described above, the deception is the second big issue.

One, since you deceived him about that, he may not be sure that there isn't more you aren't telling him. CSs tend to do the "trickle truth" thing often, where they only tell as much as they think they can get away with, and later the BS finds out there is more, and then a little later, more still.

Like, I'm a bit lucky in that I discovered the whole enchilada in one fell swoop. As she puts it, God completely ratted her out. But if she'd kept her online silence about her local affair with this guy as she had to that point, all I would have discovered is she was having sex chats online. And that was all I expected to find. It would have been easy for her to continue with the physical affair, only fessing up to the online sex chat.

But I probably would have wondered if more was going on than I had been led to believe, especially if I didn't see any change in her attitude and behavior back to what it was pre-affair. And for those that were only doing that and it never went further, the BS will always wonder if there wasn't more, because the trust factor has been destroyed.

And no doubt that is what he is going through. Wondering first if he can trust that all it was, was online sex chats. And two, is this something that will continue into the future and get worse if you are telling the truth? Those are fears that most BSs will have in a situation like this, because it so often does turn out to be true, that possibility can't be ignored. And what he is no doubt evaluating right now is whether he can get past that or not. Some of them can't. And that's the risk one takes in deciding to participate in such things. Their partner may decide they can't deal with it and leave.

Hopefully he'll give you a second chance and having learned from the experience, you'll make sure to work on yourself enough that it won't happen again. If he does give you a second chance and you do that, it will give you both the biggest success for the marriage.

" for those that were only doing that and it never went further, the BS will always wonder if there wasn't more, because the trust factor has been destroyed."

I understand completely. I cannot prove to him that there was nothing else, but I am (perhaps naively) hoping that, seeing how destroyed I am over the prospect of losing him, he will understand that I could never ever knowingly put myself in this position again. I would rather die. I am hoping he can trust me based on that.

"Hopefully he'll give you a second chance and having learned from the experience, you'll make sure to work on yourself enough that it won't happen again."

This is actually the first infidelity I've ever been caught for. It's the only infidelity I've committed in this relationship, but I have committed physical infidelities in past relationships and never faced any consequences. These consequences have been so traumatic I wish that I had learned this lesson earlier in life, when less was at stake. Lesson learned. I am hoping desperately that he will change his mind. I can't ever get involved with another person now, once I've faced losing someone I love this much. More than life itself. This isn't a risk i can survive again.

One other thing:

He says he can't be with me because of the anger. Since we are not technically together he isn't going to discuss it and he doesn't seek treatment on his own. How is he ever going to get past it? Does time alone help?

Has he actually broken all ties w/ you or is he taking time to think it through? Time is my best friend..... but you never know how much you have. Do you think you will be faithful to him? I recall you saying,on another board that you always lose interest sexually in men and that's why you cheat on them.

Maybe if you seek treatment alone, he will believe your are sincere. The betrayed person needs to see action. The words mean nothing w/out some kind of action to back them up. Also, it is important for you to "get" his pain as much as you can. Let him talk about it, give him the time he needs. There are no guarantees, but their is hope.

He hasn't strictly broken all ties, but he doesn't think we should be around each other. We still communicate but he doesn't want to talk about relationship stuff or getting back together. We are apart for the time being. I haven't moved my stuff out yet because I don't know where I am going. I am having a hard time deciding whether to look for a room to rent nearby, which I could do if it's short term. If it's long term I would move out of state to stay with family.

I can be faithful to him. Even if I have to give up a certain level of sexual excitement, being with him is the most important thing in the world to me.

I am seeing a therapist right now but I don't know how much faith he puts in that. I think he is really just waiting to see if he will feel less angry over time. I think it's going to take a long time if it ever happens. I don't know when he's going to know whether it will happen or not, if he doesn't now.

I remember when I was so totally in love with my H and we were emotionally connected. The sex act was pretty much the same thing we do... with variations. But, with that vulnerable emotional connection of giving your total self and receiving the same from him..... it was amazing. When we lost that, it wasn't the same.

Well, I do get it Gabi, cuz when I was younger, and in marriage no #1, I was not the perfect angel either. It may have to do with many factors. I really wasn't a practicing Christian then, either. I really had not experienced much in terms of the concept of infidelity, what it meant, ramifications. I think hormonal level wise, may have contributed to me. I did have that good girl vs. bad girl fight often, lol! I had lost weight, and was modeling, and began getting a lot more attention. I was still young, in my twenties, and had not really recovered enough or went to therapy yet, to deal with my abusive childhood.

But, as I got older, and dealt with some very serious issues, regarding childhood abuse, and post traumatic stress disorder, and experienced that the first husband was a pedophile, involving my niece, and at the time I had to have surgery for a fibroid tumor, as well as give up the modeling and go back to a steady teaching job. And then I got re-baptized, and so that for me, was the clincher, "I will never be the same again", comes to mind, in song and prayer, alot.

It's so ironic, add a few years, and some counseling, and a little maturity, and time to thing, and prioritize, etc. and you know who you are, what your are, what you want, what you refuse to accept....all gotten thru reading, counseling, and prayer as well as church involvement made things crystal clear again.

I'll never do anything under pressure again. I noticed that in my lifetime there are men who will ask, beg, compliment, and nag you to death until you tell them, "No". Now, I just draw a visual picture in their mind, and tell them that I could not bear to see my husband hunched over, sobbing his eyes out, asking me, "Why , why, would you do this to me? All I ever wanted was to love you...", and guess what....lol....it works like a charm every time, they back off, and the look on their face is priceless. One guy, a neighbor friend tried asking again a couple years later, about a little "get together" or teta te, whatever.... and I just reminded him, you don't hunt in your backyard, and you never mess w/ family, friends, or the Lord!!! So now, he thinks I'm a holy roller, but that's just fine by me.

Like I told him, "Maybe when I was younger, dumber, and in need of a lot more attention, that trick may have worked, but not now"! lol