I'm not questioning the nature of female affairs vs. male affairs, OR the fact that men tend to commit adultery for purely sexual reasons more frequently than females.

I'm trying to understand why people regard all types of infidelity with equal severity, when it seems pretty obvious to me that a purely physical affair is less damaging than an emotional affair whether the physical elements are present or not.

Someone pointed out that men tend to be more hurt by physical infidelity because they are more likely to COMMIT infidelity, and that doesn't make sense as an explanation to me.

The fact that I strongly disagree with the idea that physical affairs can't exist without emotional motives is a separate issue. Sometimes people just want a sexual outlet that doesn't involve being responsible for anyone else's feelings. That's why impersonal sex happens. Sex with strangers, sex in bathrooms in bars, sex with prostitutes. It's pleasure without work. Online it's even more so; you don't have to touch anyone else or bring them to orgasm, only yourself.

Spiky, first let me say I am sorry about the loss of your fiance;you say you have not had the experience of a bs or cs, but you have suffered a terrible loss. It sounds like you can't understand how an A can be compared to a death. No they are not the same, however the grieving of the death of a life that once was is over just as when someone you love dies. The pain is pain, loss is loss no matter what the cause.
I think for you , if you could have your loved one back even if unfaithful you would do that in a second.

Hi Spiky,

I'll attempt to address the physical vs. emotional thing as best I can. As mentioned, I was just reporting what statistics say on that regard, not attempting to explain why so much.

Do men focus on sex more? You bet. But you need to be careful here, because it is not what you think from your perspective. In the book, "His Needs, Her Needs," in studies where men and women list the five most important romantic needs they have, men often listed sex as first, along with respect, recreational companionship, and some others. Women, however, tended to list things like affection, conversation, domestic support, etc. Sex tended to be in the bottom five somewhere.

For a man, sex isn't just meeting a physical desire, at least when it comes to a relationship. It can feel that way sometimes, but sex is a big need in men, not just for the physical pleasure, but because that is one of the, if not the, primary way where we feel the love between us and the woman partner. It says to us, you respect us, we provide loving intimacy to you and us, and it bonds us with you.

I would say that women tend to have sex only after the emotions have kicked in enough to do so. Obviously some do have "meaningless" sex. A lot more men do as well. But I would question that it is meaningless. If it is meeting a need you have, and someone else is meeting that need, it forms a bond, a relationship between the two people no matter how emotionally detached you may be with that person. They are meeting a need in you, that creates a bond. Just like a mother her nurses her baby for the first time creates a bond with the child.

So I think people try to make their sex seem meaningless. Just some stranger that you aren't "involved" with. And yet, sex itself is an involvement, a relationship of some sorts, or you wouldn't be doing it. If you didn't need them, you wouldn't bother.

Yes, for men sex is very important in order to feel loved by their spouse. Early in my marriage, my wife resisted having sex with me, around 5 years into it. I had thought we'd be doing it several times a week, at least, I hoped, the average of 3 to 4 times. But as it turned out, that didn't happen. And by 5 years in, it got so bad I had to practically beg and "drag" her into bed. If I gave the slightest hint I wanted to have sex, she'd just roll her eyes as if I were some pervert. At one point, I began to feel she really didn't love me. Because if she did, and knowing how important this was for me, she refused to give me much at all, about once a quarter it got down to at the worst time, and that only when I got desperate and begged, I began to feel I repulsed her or something. I couldn't understand why if she loved me, she refused to meet this important need I had.

It was during that time I had opportunity and motive because I wasn't getting what I desperately needed. It was only when I decided to no longer push, just be content with whatever I got, and be okay with that, that it gradually improved over time. But if I had decided to cheat, it would have been a violation of our marriage vows and just as bad, whether or not I loved the other person or not.

For whatever gender-related based outlook on things, sex is simply much more important for meeting a man's emotional and romantic needs.

Meanwhile, what I discovered through the affair, is that I was doing the same thing to my wife without realizing it. Her main romantic need is to spend time with me, for me to pay attention to her. It doesn't so much matter what we're doing, talking, swimming, grocery shopping, she just wanted me to spend time with her and through that, she would feel my love for her. But I didn't see it that way. When she wanted me to go shopping, I only saw, "I have these things I need to get done, and you don't need me to pull things off the shelf, I'd be wasting my time when I could be getting these important things done over here." So I would say I couldn't go, that I needed to work on X, Y, or Z. I was viewing it purely from a pragmatic point of view.

But the reality was, it wasn't that she needed help at the store. She only wanted to spend time with me. That's how she feels love from me. I don't feel love from her so much that way. Oh yeah, some. It isn't a black or white thing. But it wasn't the primary way I felt love from her, so it didn't dawn on me that it was how she would feel I loved her. Just never registered on my radar that all that time I was saying in effect, "Honey, I have more important things to do than spend time with you." Rather, I understood it as, "Honey, you don't need me to grocery shop, but I do need to get these things done. I don't see why I should go." I never translated that into a personal issue with her.

So she wasn't meeting my need for sexual intimacy, and I wasn't meeting her need for emotional intimacy. I didn't allow that to turn into an affair, but unfortunately for her, her desire for attention and my lack of it, made her more susceptible to someone who came along and really acted like they wanted her.

And most of what my wife had were EAs. The first guy was an EA from mid Oct. of 2010 through mid Dec., two months, and only turned physical on the last day he was in town. (she barely avoided another incident when he came back to get the rest of his stuff, but too long to get into here). But she was heavily infatuated with him, despite the fact that he was one of those men who only wanted her for a sex toy, didn't care about her, or that she was married, or that it might destroy her marriage and potentially create a divorced household for our kids. He could care less about that. All he wanted was a blow job, and probably sex too if he could get it. Then she'd be another notch on his gun and he would move on. But for two months she held back from him through all their sex chats and wouldn't give him what he wanted, until it appeared he'd be leaving and she saw it as her last chance.

Aside from that one incident and the last guy, it was all EAs. Don't get me wrong. I don't like those either. And if I'd known the sex chatting going on between them, I would have gagged just about as bad because it certainly indicates a desire to have sex, even if it never actually happens. And in my book, that's about as good as actually doing it. Because it basically means eventually it will given enough time.

But for men, sex isn't merely selfish. It is how we experience love and respect and self-worth. Just as much as you may through whatever needs you have that provide that aspect of it for you. And for most men who cheat, it often involves more than just sex, it involves feeling that someone else wants you, desires you, thinks you are worth meeting your need for love. They aren't getting that from their wife, for whatever reasons, and suddenly they find someone who thinks they are the world, and they question why their wife doesn't seem to love them in the same way. That's the temptation.

My wife fell in love with two men specifically. In both instances, the sex was simply the desire to meet their needs because it met hers, to feel wanted and important to someone. She loved me dearly. And I her. But neither of us were paying the attention to each other that we needed to be doing, through just drifting apart through the years in our lives. I had my world and she had hers. And the two only intersected as small times here and there.

Now, we spend lots of time together. I do go to the grocery store with her. I do go to the gym with her, swimming. We talk a lot. We both go to all the church services together when before I'd usually be going alone (1.5 hours drive time round trip). And we have sex nearly every night.

So the summary is, for her to have sex with someone else is a direct attack on her love for me, and my emotional connection with her as my wife and lover and life-long companion. It violates my trust in her, and for me, without that trust, you don't have a relationship. Hiding and lying and keeping such a secret, that I had to stumble upon and discover on my own, ripped to shreds the deep trust I had in her as my most intimate companion. It is like, but even worse, than telling a close friend a personal secret that you wanted to share with them, and then finding out they told someone else. Having sex with anther person at its core level says to me, "I don't love you. I have someone else now." Whether that is true or not. That's what it says, emotional affair attached or not. Because that is the primary mode where I feel love from you. Share that with someone else, and that turns our relationship upside down, and my life.

Not sure if that communicates or makes sense of it all, but that's about the best I can explain it from my point of view.

Here is what I know. The grief process due to an affair is similiar to the grief process to a death in of a loved one. However, I don't think it is as intense.

I will also add if I lost one of my kids or my sisters or husband....... I would not be giving my h's affair any more thought at all. I believe it would become insignificant. This is hard.... but there is hope... Death? Hope is gone. I am spiritual and believe in heaven, but that wouldnt lessen the devastation.

I have not lost a loved one besides a grandmother and grandfather. It was sad, but I know it is just the order of things. But the loss of someone I NEED in my life..... omg, I don't know how ppl go on after a death of a child.Our pain is just nothing compared to theirs.

Also.... My H had an Ea only. I caught him very early in the A. My pain and hurt, is real and has changed me and my M. From reading here.... it is not as hard as some others..... most others, actually. This is how I feel...but I get that others will have a different view and that's cool too.

I appreciate how compassionate everyone has been in their replies. Cole, you said "sex is a big need in men, not just for the physical pleasure, but because that is one of the, if not the, primary way where we feel the love between us and the woman partner"

That's an interesting point. I had never thought of it that way. I am used to assuming men separate sex from their emotions. I have always thought the importance men placed on the sexual availability of their partner was purely selfish and my reaction was, I would be very hurt if the person I love reduced my role to that of a whore who's just there to have sex on demand.

The reasons I'm asking these questions is this: I've been reading through here and it sounds like a lot of you have had spouses who had sexual relationships with other people, invested emotional energy in them, and even fell in love with them sometimes. Yet you've decided to try to mend the relationship and give it another chance or you wouldn't be in this group. What I want to know is, if you can forgive your partner and move on after all this, then certainly it's possible to forgive a partner who had a few online sex chats? That is what I did and my fiance is separated from me. He may decide to give it another chance but not right now.

We disagree about what constitutes sexual affairs but I can honestly say, on my life, it was sexual only, no emotions were present. I wouldn't care if this person dropped dead. I don't even know their name. It took no effort to break contact. I never hooked up with anyone in person and while my partner has no reason to believe that wouldn't have happened eventually, I can say with confidence that it wouldn't have and here is why: I sought online sexual release only to satisfy my own need for novelty, and most significantly, I am absolutely NOT interested in sexually gratifying or even touching another person, which would have been expected of my if I had met them face to face. I didn't even particularly care if they weren't satisfied by our online encounters.

For those of you who think this was still meeting some emotional need, think about this: Maybe some of you have been married 20 years and are still sexually on fire for your spouse. Not the case with many people. I had the emotional connection and fulfillment with my partner, I didn't need it from anywhere else. But sex with the same partner gets stale after awhile. I wanted the sexual stimulation that comes from novelty.

But most importantly, I just want to find out, having been through what so many of you described, do you think what I did is forgivable?

Well now here is what I think. All things are forgivable if 3 key factors are present
1. The cs is truely remorseful with a full understanding of the pain they have caused
2. The cs has not intention of letting ever happen again
3. The cs and the bs are willing to work on rebuilding the relationship.

Right now it seems you are exploring 1 and 2. You don't seem remorseful. You seem to be coming here to help justify your actions and prove that what you did is no big deal and almost acceptable because things were stale. If you are seeking sexual pleasure from others because things are stale now and your only engaged, well who could know how far you would take it in10 years?


If you truely want to work things out then I strongly recommend you dig down deep and decide if you are actualy sorry for what happened or are you looking for him to excuse it and say its ok.

Pink- May add #4- The BS is capable of getting past the A when #1-3 are present.

I am in that line of thinking right now. I love him, and I am gaining back trust. I don't love him the way I want to. Something inside has died for me. He knows this and is willing to give me the time I need. I'll stay until all hope is gone.Man, I hate this shit!

You've misread me. The guilt is killing me.

Yes I did mention that I don't think cheating is as big a deal as other people do but I'm not stupid enough to expect my partner to live by my standards. I know that he takes it very seriously and I am painfully aware of what this has done to him.

The only reason I mentioned the stale sex thing was that I am kind of amazed at how a hard it seems for people to grasp that I was seeking sexual release only and that there was no hidden, complex emotional explanation for what I did. This wasn't an attempt at justification.

The purpose of me posting here is that I don't say any of this to my partner, because it would be inappropriate. I can't pressure him to forgive me and I understand that. That's why I am asking for an assessment of my transgressions by people who have forgiven their partners for what seem like even worse violations.

As for #2 and #3, there is no question that I won't do it again. I can't speak for my partner but I will do whatever it takes. It's his decision though.

@ Spiky.... it seems like you have the info you need in order to reconcile w/ your fiance' if he is willing to cooperate. What you may have to accept is that he might be thinking if you are having sex chats on line.... what will you be doing after your married. Fact... sex chats are a gateway to a physical affair. In your heart you might know you wouldn't go there. Cold fact... Your fiance' can only go by your actions and they were devious.and can't see into your heart right now. I wish he could. Wishing you both the best.

Let me just respond to the comment "sex chats are a gateway to a physical affair."

The entire appeal of it was that it was all pretend, I controlled it completely because it was taking place in my mind. The thought of hooking up with someone I don't know holds no appeal (as I've said before, I don't want to be responsible for anyone else's sexual pleasure). There is also the fact that I would fear for my safety. Everyone hears 'online sex chats' and they all seem to assume a great deal more communication and intimacy than what actually occurred. I don't know this person's name, where they live, how old they are, what they look like, and I don't care to know. It wasn't anything about the individual that i liked. I found them because I have the same fetish and we talked about it to get each other off. That's it.

Now -- having said that -- I understand completely that my partner has no reason to believe me, exactly because it was inherently dishonest. Huneybee said "Your fiance' can only go by your actions and they were devious.and can't see into your heart right now." I get it. He can't read my mind. Trust needs to be rebuilt. But I have no reason to lie to you folks! I don't know why I care, I just want people to accept that it really was online play for the sake of online play and nothing else. It was an end in itself. Maybe I don't want everyone to assume that anyone who engages in sex chatting is eventually going to seek to consummate it in person.

You say the reasons you didn't or wouldn't take it physical was because you had no interest in pleasuring somebody else and that you feared for your safety but you didn't mention because it was just wrong and you would not want to hurt your fiancé.

Many cs here have said that they never expected to be the cs ever. Many started with online play and went to places they could have never imagined they would allow. I can see that happening. You cross one line and eventually that gets comfortable and you become desensitized to what is happening.

Sort of like kids watching violence on tv. Then video games. Then movie, and eventually it seems normal and they become desensitized to it.

All I can say is tha if you can take responsibility and true understanding of how he feels then there is always a chance. I just don't think you get it. You say you feel guilty but then cancell that out with the rest of your response. Maybe your fiancé is feeling your true feelings. The ones you are speaking of here.

Talk to him about your fetish and how you would like it if he could help you fulfill it occassionaly. Ask him what sexual fantasies you could help fulfill for him. Both of you may not be willing to do a whole lot of the others but occassionaly may be a good comprimise.

I believe you want your relationship back but I am concerned over your thought process in your actions. I hope that in time you and he can find a way to work through it. I'm all for rebuilding if it is what both partners want and are willing to work towards.

@ Cole: Once again, with lucid prose, you encapsulated my perspectives. Thank you for taking the time to write. Your experience has helped me tremendously as I recognize so much of ourselves in you and your wife's situation. Some of the background is different, but there are numerous, striking similarities. The fact that you two are a success story, amidst a sometimes seeming ocean of anger, resentment and marital failure, is inspiring and uplifting. Particularly considering that the path my wife and I are currently on is very similar to the path you have already taken and there is a close affinity of feelings and viewpoints we share. It gives us even more hope that we are on the right path.
I completely relate to the explanation of how sexual infidelity affects men (as a generality). I read of, usually women, that discovered their husbands sexting or having an otherwise purely emotional affair, and they are devastated for a long time. In no way do I want to contradict their pain or emotions, but I honestly cannot relate to this. I would much rather this occurred than the physical affairs my wife had. It would by no means have been pleasant, and there are all sorts of negative implications, but for me, to compare her sexting with an anonymous stranger online, or her having too much of an emotional connection with a male, without sex, is not even close to the same thing (at least in terms of how it would effect me on an emotional level and the feelings of being betrayed). In fact, my wife admitted to sexting and she admitted to having an inappropriate emotional bonding with a former friend and mentor before the sexual affairs began. These are upsetting, and the last was likely a more objective threat to our marriage, but they are just a backdrop at this point that I never even bring up. For me, the sexual acts have a great deal more immediacy and subjective impact. This is due to the reasons that Cole so eloquently laid out. It's not that she's my sexual property, it's that she gave away what I considered our strongest bond of intimacy and love. Add to that that she gave it to relative strangers just to feel more wanted and attractive for a moment, and, most especially, add to that that she did not want sex/intimacy with me for those years, while giving it elsewhere, and add to that that she was willing to let a man document these sex acts and eventually throw them in my face, and you end up with serious and life-long wounding from deep rejection and betrayal, as a lover and as a friend. Another complicating factor is that though the affairs may have been "purely sexual", there is still a bonding, still an implicit connection she is making with other men, and more so with repeated sex. And whether or not she admits it to me or herself, that though there were reportedly zero emotions involved, there is no denying that there must have been some level of intimacy and emotion. At the very least, it was very dangerous waters that easily could have lead to strong emotional bonding. When she is having sex, multiple times, with the same person, her brain and his are being flooded with the exact hormones that tell us we are falling in love and attach us to that person. Simple biology. Of course there are lots of other complicating variables involved so that these feelings may be overridden and ignored, but the more they had sex, the more likely the emotions would eventually follow. Indeed, that is exactly what happened with her last lover on his part. His assumption, being a male, was that she was having continued sex with him because she must feel love and a connection to him. She must not love me. He did not have the same complicating variables as she; his hormones increasingly told him that he loved her, and he reasoned that she must love him, or would. I still find it incredible that she did not see this coming. I know that she is quite upset that I will likely never look or her or think about her in exactly same way as before, but this makes me shake my head and wonder how in the world she ever thought that what she was doing could not do this. What other result could there be? It may not be true, but it feels as if she never really loved me, but rather loved what purpose I served. She loved the way I made her feel, the way I helped with her insecurities. I was always just a way to feel better about herself and affirm her. The moment I did not serve this function when our marriage was in its first real slump, I was replaced by strangers that were more than willing to do this for a piece of easy ass. I will still love her, and eventually respect and trust her again, more or less, but I will never see her the same.

"You say the reasons you didn't or wouldn't take it physical was because you had no interest in pleasuring somebody else and that you feared for your safety but you didn't mention because it was just wrong and you would not want to hurt your fiancé"

I didn't mention those things because I am not here to convince anyone of that. Besides, anyone could say that they were going to stop their cheating behavior out of concern for their spouse, but that's not very convincing is it? If that were true they wouldn't have done any of it.

"Many cs here have said that they never expected to be the cs ever. Many started with online play and went to places they could have never imagined they would allow. I can see that happening. You cross one line and eventually that gets comfortable and you become desensitized to what is happening"

I am not here to present a case about why I won't do that. I don't need you to believe me. It just amazes me is that you absolutely cannot accept that I know for a fact I wasn't going to ever meet this person. I was not attracted to him. It was the conversations that appealed to me, not the person. I went into it knowing what I wanted and what I didn't want. It's not as if I'd never done this in my life and had no idea what it was going to feel like or what would happen. Is that clear enough?

"You say you feel guilty but then cancell that out with the rest of your response. Maybe your fiancé is feeling your true feelings. The ones you are speaking of here"

None of this cancels out my guilt. I am not here to prove my guilt or remorse. I am here because I am curious about how betrayed spouses would rate the severity of my unfaithful actions, i.e. if they would forgive their partner for doing the same thing. That's it. If it was really true that my partner's forgiveness depended on my remorse level, he would have forgiven me. He sees how remorseful I am and feels bad for me. But it doesn't only depend on that. Besides which he said forgiveness isn't even the issue, even if he forgives me he doesn't know if he can be with me anymore.

Spiky: Short reply: yes, i would forgive it. Personally, I would consider it, by comparison, much less painful. Read my journal and original story. If I can try to learn to forgive all those things with my wife, which seem to me to be about the absolute worst way to treat a spouse, then certainly I would forgive you your much less serious indiscretion. But, that doesn't mean that your partner can, or necessarily should, forgive you. Likely, as stated, the larger issue is what this forebodes. Why take the chance? There are plenty of fish in the sea. People have been deeply wounded on this site, and at times stick it out and do their best to forgive, but in part that is due to the deep investment they have at this point, in love, family and everything else. Your partner has to confront the chances he is taking in marrying you, which is a different context than most of us on this site.
I challenge you to not diminish what took place and accept his feelings on the matter, as well as his hurt, as valid, if you want to fix things as much as possible. (Not necessarily saying you are, but like the others have stated, I also get this impression: that you are looking for a bit of justification. If you are, it's simply not constructive.)
And one last thing, I do accept the motives, reasoning, etc. behind your sex talk online, in contrast to the others. It can be exactly as you describe. But, one, it is interesting that you are really invested in having others see it the same way (justification?, lessening?), and, two, it doesn't likely matter in the big picture.