Spiky I am not clear of your point, I think what I hear is just because people cheat does not mean they are immoral or not selfish and that it should be accepted that if given the chance any one who is attracted to another will likely have sex with that person if given the chance and can get away with it.
Are you saying that rape, murder, exploitation and torture as just another human behavior we should just shrug our shoulders to and say "Well, afterall its just human behavior' unless one of your loved ones fell victim to any of these horrific acts than you might view it differenly.

You raise a good point in people experience attraction to people that aren't their spouse, but it doesn't mean they have sex with everyone they are attracted to.

Affairs usally aren't just about sex; it is usally a sign that the relationship has broken down. AS a BS in this situation I wasn't happy either, I felt alone and like I didn't have a partner but I valued my marriage and my marriage vows and chose to stay faithful because of my moral compass.

It is true that anyone can become vulnerable to an A. and people who choose to cheat are just as moral as anyone, but they are not behaving in a way that honors those morals.

Spiky,

It is a common response when you experience a tragic event. Loved one gets cancer, a random bullet kills a child, or a father murders his family in cold blood and then kills himself. It's all happened before and will happen again. And when it does, everyone always asks, "Why?" Even when there is no logical answer. What makes anyone think such acts are okay? They aren't, but as you note, people do them.

And when someone who loves you, betrays you, it runs counter to that love, and you ask, "Why?" People who love each other generally don't do things to hurt each other. Temptation or no temptation. We simply attempt to make sense out of something that cannot be made sense of. If they love you, they wouldn't do that. But they do. And there's no real good reason *why*. There are reasons, as my wife has detailed, but none of it excuses the act. Excuses the giving into temptation. Excuses the stealing from the one they love what was not theirs to give. And so it will continue to remain a mystery.

Not because anyone is living in a perfect world, not because we don't understand the way temptation and our Pavlov dog responses tend to lead us around by the nose, if we allow it. We know none of us are perfect, we all make mistakes, or sometimes make wrong decisions that hurt other people. But none of that can explain why if they love you, they would hurt you like that.

Studies show that people who have been cheated on go through an equivalent emotional turmoil as if someone close had died. Many say it is worse, having been through both. So we're not talking about stealing a pen from work, or telling a white lie, or any other act that also might violate our morals. The difference is in consequences. Or the scale of them. Not that one is inherently more "sinful" than the other, but they have varying degrees of consequences and emotional impacts upon people.

It doesn't matter that it happens. A moral is a moral because it defines actions that do hurt people. Sure, some are created out of thin air by people or groups, but most are there because they hurt others. Murdering hurts someone. So does cheating. The difference is in most cases, someone murders another and doesn't profess to love them. They are often doing it because they don't love that person.

I get the point, and there is validity to what you say. This stuff happens all the time. But it is a natural response when you've been wronged, when you've been hurt, especially by someone who has stated they love you and committed their live to you and your protection, who committed to being someone you could trust, to ask why, even if you know there is no good answer. The things you mentioned do not answer that question. Nothing can.

And for the record, there are many of us who don't see how much we can get away with. I get your cynical. And I've run into people like that, just this past year even. But I've never been the type to see how much I can get away with. And I could have cheated on my wife before. I had opportunity, I had motive, and it wouldn't have been hard to do. But I couldn't do that to her and the kids. I'm not saying I'm morally perfect or anything like that. I've had my moral failings, just that wasn't one of them. So, yeah, it is a natural reaction, knowing I could have and didn't, to wonder why my wife felt she could.

But I'll end with this. My wife, Gabrielle, now looks back on that time and she can't believe she did what she did. She often cries tears of repentance, even tonight, because she hates what she did. She wishes to high heaven that she'd never allowed that to happen. I feel what she did has hurt her even worse than me at times. And she can't tell me or herself the why. We both know what happened, as she laid out. But why she violated her morals, very strongly held beliefs, is a mystery to both me and her. And truth be told, there is no real explanation for it. She was in the wrong mindset at the wrong time, and allowed herself to be sucked into desires that snowballed on her. I understand that. I've forgiven her. But it will never make sense why she allowed that to happen. There is a logical disconnect that cannot be answered.

And I think that is what everyone you quoted was expressing. People do violate their morals. But that makes no sense. If they are trying to see what they can get away with, then they are not violating a moral, because they don't possess that one. Seeing what you can get away with only shows you don't believe that moral is one to uphold and live by. Something imposed from the outside instead of something you hold as true in your own life, because you value the lives of other people as much as your own.

But when people go through tragedy, they always ask why, even when they and everyone else around them knows there's no good answer. It is just human nature. Not living in a fantasy world. If you've not experienced yet, someday you will.

Spiky there will be exile only reactions to your response. You almost sound like you are challenging that.

What you describe is absolutely a problem with morals and values. In order to say we have morals and values we must live by them. If we don't and we make excuses like"human nsture" then our moral compass is off. That simple.

To make mistakes is human. When those mistakes are lapse in judgement result in breaking vows of fidelity based on an agreed set of values then again your compass is off. You are making an argument but not making your point sorry.

I can see that attraction can happen, that mistakes can happen, that infidelity can happen. How does one follow through over and over knowing they are emotionaly destroying another. You can not do that and defend your morals in the same breath.

BTWare you the bs or cs? I'm going to guess the cs.

Oliviann:

you said "It is true that anyone can become vulnerable to an A. and people who choose to cheat are just as moral as anyone, but they are not behaving in a way that honors those morals"

That is pretty much exactly the point I was making, if a bit bluntly. I don't say cheating is something that should be swept under the rug, I am just saying that it isn't a great mystery to me that people commonly succumb to temptation. I also feel that often, people who are not tempted to do things that are "wrong" make the mistake of thinking it's because of their moral integrity. To me, it's resistance to temptation that proves real strength, not the absence of experiencing temptation.

I do understand that when people have been hurt by someone they thought would never hurt them, they are wracked by disbelief. I think though that they are wondering not how people cheat, but how THEIR loved one cheated on them.

Part of the logic behind cheating is that the partner who engages in it doesn't believe it's something they are doing "to" their spouse. Many times it has little or nothing to do with their spouse. People find it confusing when their feelings don't conform to what they've been told is "right". Not defending it, but I don't think it's usually motivated by hostility or desire to hurt their significant other, even though that's the way it feels to the betrayed partner.

Cole said "Studies show that people who have been cheated on go through an equivalent emotional turmoil as if someone close had died. Many say it is worse, having been through both"

I would be incredibly disturbed to find out my sexual fidelity was more important to my partner than my survival. I have experienced the death of 2 loved ones and one of them was my fiance, so reading this is pretty unbelievable to me.

As for my experience of being cheated on, I am actually not terribly threatened by sexual infidelity, which I have experienced, so much as romantic infidelity. The closest I have come to that was an inappropriate friendship with an outsider, which was ended before it became a serious issue. I have so far never been with anyone who had a serious love affair with anyone else, nor have I ever been left for another person, and I hope never to be. I can say it's pretty hard to get your head around the fact that your loved one will NEVER EVER BE OK AGAIN BECAUSE THEY ARE DEAD. Maybe it's faith that tips the balance in making these comparisons; I don't believe in God or an afterlife, so I don't have that to comfort me. I understand that they are both forms of loss -- from their point of view as either a betrayed or bereaved person. But I think it would be awfully selfish of me to say I'd prefer that my loved one died than make a choice that hurts me, even very deeply.

Spiky, you are twisting words. Nobody said that a cs would "prefer" death. What is being said is the emotional process is similar and it is often (not always) follows the same path as healing from a death. Some people's healing and post affair reaction have also been compared to PTSD. That doesn't mean one would prefer to be in a war and watch people die. It is how our minds and hearts heal and how many react emotionaly to infidelity. There are steps to grieving.

Wether the A is being done TO the spouse or without regard to the spouse, it still falls under the same lapse in reason, the moral compass being "off".

This post seems to have triggered something in you. Can't quite figure out what but obviously you have your own anger that you are dealing with and this post is triggering that.

I think it was the bit that said "Many say it is worse, having been through both" (meaning affairs and death). This seems a bit extreme to me.

I think in most cases affairs are crimes of indifference. Certainly the partner isn't TRYING to hurt their spouse, else why bother with the secrecy?

I think I am trying to understand the trauma aspect. I am personally not especially threatened by sexual transgressions. I have never had a partner who fell in love with another person. I think it seems to me that these are 2 very different categories of violation but people lump them together. I understand that people think having sex with another person leads to emotional infidelity, but obviously that isn't always true. I think that sexual indiscretions are distressing but manageable. I wouldn't leave my partner for an isolated sex act.

Spiky, you said, "I would be incredibly disturbed to find out my sexual fidelity was more important to my partner than my survival. I have experienced the death of 2 loved ones and one of them was my fiance, so reading this is pretty unbelievable to me."

Like pink said, not saying one is the same in all aspects, or that I would rather my wife died. Each has its own hurts and problems, but the emotional trauma is similar in *impact*.

And it is the "secrecy" itself that is one major aspect of the hurt. Both the infidelity and the deception of someone you trusted explicitly. The hurt happens even if the partner never finds out. They may not be as emotionally impacted by it, but they will suffer because the relationship will suffer. Keeping such secrets undermines a healthy relationship, especially one of that magnitude.

But whether the spouse ever finds out or not, they have been hurt, stolen from, behind their back, without any knowledge that it was going on. It might be hard for you, since you've never been through it, but we had a marriage going on for 28 years plus. Neither of us had ever been with anyone else. I trusted her explicitly, and took some pride in that fact that I could trust her. Sure, I was naive on that aspect. But after 29 years you think you know someone, can trust that they will always act consistent with who they are and what their beliefs are. We loved each other very much, even leading up to the A. But she fell into some wrong thinking and she was also naive, and one thing led to another. It can all be read in my journals.

But it was one of the most shocking things in my life to discover her affair. I couldn't believe it. Sure, I knew that happened all the time. But I never thought it would happen to her, to us. And it has totally changed our relationship. In some ways, for the better because it has forced us to focus on our marriage, and rebuild it. But the broken trust for me was a big thing.. A lot of that has been rebuilt because of her proactive work. But it takes a long time for that to heal, just like it takes a long time to move past a death.

The first week after discovering the A, we were on a roller coaster ride, especially me. I had panic attacks, felt my heart beat irregularly, breathing was shallow and short. I had to leave work one day because I was breaking down emotionally from fear she wasn't going to break it off with the other man and it would all be destroyed. And while I would in no wise wish she were dead instead, and I haven't jumped ship on her despite multiple affair partners, one of the harder things about this over a death is it stays alive and real and in your face for much longer. For both parties. A death happens, and that's it. It doesn't get extended out for months and years of pain. You deal with it, and most people, while they never forget, move on with their life and continue, and while the pain gets less over the years, they intentionally remind themselves of the person because there are happy memories associated with them.

With an affair, I'm reminded of the hurt and pain. And it doesn't always go away. Some BSs go ten years down the road and feel like the betrayal happened yesterday. It isn't something one gets over in a week, or a month, or three, it often takes up to two years minimum and for some who do the sweeping under the rug thing, more. And like I said, my wife, the CS, is suffering more than me at this point. And we are 11 months past dday.

I hope you never do have to experience it. It probably is hard to understand until you've been there.

What I notice about post-affair fallout is, in some (but obviously not all) cases, redemption is possible. The change may be permanent, but the partner who caused the damage can be given another chance to be a better partner, and some actually succeed. No such flexibility in death!

Anyway, that aside, I would really like to know how people characterize sexually infidelity vs. emotional infidelity. It seems that most of the "affairs" people are talking about here comprised of someone who was part of a couple going out and sleeping with and having a social if not loving relationship with another person. Obviously this detracts from the energy and attention they can give to their original partner. In this scenario, you're basically dating another person, which is a direct rejection of your relationship with your spouse.

But suppose a person was only seeking a sexual outlet, that's obviously still a violation of the covenant of their marriage, but it can be a situation where the sexual need is satisfied, it's over and the partner doesn't wind up sacrificing time or emotional energy spent on their spouse. This doesn't seem like as much of a wound to a marriage to me.

My H affair according to him was a booty call. An easy sexual A. We have debated on this board which is worse. But there never is a cut and dry answer. If you read through the posts and some profiles you will see that the types of A are all different. Some are just online, some emotional, some sexual, and some are all of the above. I dealt with my H 3 year long sexual A that ended when his actions resulted in a pregnancy.

I have seen folks here react much more severely and neat suicide over a one night stand A. So trying to compare is a difficult task. It is a blow to your heart and hard to deal with no matter what.

I seriously don't think anybody (I hope not) is comparing it with death in the sense that you speak of. I have compared my grief process to that of death. I have lost people that I love dearly and do not compare it in the sense that they are even close to the same degree of loss.

We lose the relationship we thought we had. We mourn the loss of who we believed that person to be as we come to accept them. Again, I do hope that I am speaking for others when I say it is more the grief process that is being compared and not the loss of a loved one as a whole.

I hope that others chime in here, because that would be scary if anybody was saying that the loss of a loved one is in the same category as losing the marriage or relationship you are in.

No, pink, you are correct. As I said before, I'm only talking about the emotional impact, the trauma level. You can't compare different kinds of losses. Each have their own horribleness about them that another doesn't. In death, you lose someone dear to you, you can't get them back, at least in this life, they are gone. But other types of losses can be just as devastating even if the losses themselves can't be compared on a rational basis. Remember, we're talking human emotions. What each person experiences is what they experience. And in either case, when someone goes through a big loss like that, they will feel it is the worst experience they've ever had in their life.

So, that aside, I think it is safe to just leave it that someone who has experienced infidelity has gone through a life-changing, tragic event, a huge loss, that takes years, not weeks, to get past. The many stories on this forum, and the Infidelity forum are a testimony to that.

But as per your physical vs. emotional issue, this is my take. FYI, my wife had both. It started as an EA, then a brief "one day stand" of a BJ with the guy before he left town, then multiple sex chats on line with guys, including phone sex with one, and sending pictures. Then she met a man in town, fell in love with him, spent huge amounts of time with him, and within two weeks started a 6 week long physical affair with him.

It seems in general (which means there are exceptions), women tend to view EAs as worse, while men view PAs as worse. I think that tends to stem from the fact that women don't generally have a PA without an EA, where as men can, as you mention, just satisfy a sexual desire. But women, in general, tend to find it hard to believe a man can do that.

So, since I'm a man, I guess I fall into the "general" view of things. One, an EA is bad, but I can tell you if I had found out my wife had only been sex chatting on line, and never had sex with anyone, I wouldn't have felt as nearly as devastated. It would have been easier for me to work through it. But her having had sex with someone else, EA or not, was for me a break of a sacred vow, and giving away of what was mine. It destroyed her purity, something she can never get back. It brought another man into the bedroom and now she can't say she'd never slept with anyone but me. Gone, permanatly, never to be recovered. I treasured that, knew how rare that was that two people, married for over 28 years, had never had sex with another else.

I guess that's also because I see sex as more than just having a good time. It is a bonding with another person, a level of matrimony, of giving yourself to another in commitment of love, honor, and uniting to be "one flesh." It's not the only bond of marriage, but it is a key one. Because that's how families are formed, it is how we literally become one flesh in a child. Whether or not it produces a child, it is a sacred bond of commitment to each other whenever it happens. So I treasured the fact that our bond was intimate and pure. And her having sex with another man destroyed almost 29 years of that joy.

To unite yourself to another human being on the level of marriage whether emotionally, physically, or both, is destructive to your spouse/partner you've committed to. But to me, as a man, the physical aspect, whether or not there was any emotional connection or not, is the worst. Others will feel differently based on their beliefs, how they were brought up, and probably their gender, etc.

Cole, I have a few questions. You said:

"It seems in general (which means there are exceptions), women tend to view EAs as worse, while men view PAs as worse. I think that tends to stem from the fact that women don't generally have a PA without an EA, where as men can, as you mention, just satisfy a sexual desire. But women, in general, tend to find it hard to believe a man can do that."

I don't know if I follow your explanation as to why women are more threatened by "emotional affairs" and men are more threatened by "physical affairs".

For one thing, if it's a romantic affair, it's going to include physical stuff, so aren't you betrayed on BOTH fronts? To me an EA is not an either/or situation. It's very seldom people have a "romance" with NO physical component, or at the very least arousal and the desire to get physical.

However it IS most certainly possible for people to have a physical affair with no feelings for the other person. I have lived long enough to have had my share of meaningless sex with people I couldn't care less about. In fact, if you want uncomplicated sex, hooking up with someone you dislike is one way to ensure that it doesn't ever get romantic. I not only have no problem believing a man can do that, I have no problem believing that women can do it either. I generally don't put sex on any sacred pedestal.

Even assuming that what you say --"women don't generally have a PA without an EA" -- is true, it still doesn't necessarily explain why a woman would be more threatened by an emotional affair on the part of her partner. I personally am more threatened by emotional affairs because I believe feelings are the essence of a relationship. I think that everything that's special about our partnership revolves around feelings -- feelings that are always there, whereas the sex comes and goes. I just always assumed men were threatened by physical affairs because they are just more sexually territorial.

Spiky: I agreed with your perspective on keeping things in perspective. It really isn't that great of a mystery in the grand scheme of things. I see this in much the same way for a number of reasons. However, you diverge when talking about death comparisons and your relatively benign view of solely sexual infidelity.

When I was 18, my best, and one of my very few, friends left for the military. Immediately after, I found out my 17 year old sweetheart was pregnant. Soon after, I watched my father suffocate to death in the early morning hours due to an unexpected pulmonary thrombosis at the age of 44. My mother lost much of her hair and almost committed suicide. Becoming a teenage father when I had literally just watched my own die was a nightmare. However, though I hate to say it, I was far, far more affected on an emotional and deep level by the revelations of my wife's affairs . I would live that earlier year over in a heartbeat than live this last year over again. And, like you, I also do not believe in an afterlife. He is gone. I'm not saying this makes sense. I realize that I can move on and my wife is still here and can change and the long-term impact is not nearly as damaging. But the emotional impact cannot be denied. Illogical or not, it was far worse. There were several times last year when I was a step away from the hospital, morgue or prison. Not so when my father died. Cole has discussed some of the reasons. There are others. For one its a personal affront. It's not just the fates, but an active decision coming from the one person most able to hurt you, the one you hold dearest. It is something that she actively chose to do, not just bad luck. Two, it is an attack to the core of your being. Your orientation to the world, how you relate to others, assumptions and beliefs that go you by day to day, your sense of self and self worth, your view of the person you love and trust the most, hidden fears, reality itself. Also, you do not generally have the same social support. When someone close dies family and close friends close ranks and help lick collective wounds. I cannot tell my family. It's been several months and I'm only starting to tell close friends. The majority either cannot relate or are frightened by it and part ways. So, frankly, I think that you are missing the point. It's not that, ultimately, we wish that someone had died, but rather that it affects in nearly the same way, or often worse.
As to the issue of emotional vs. sexual, Cole was right on re: the gender differentiation in viewpoint. It is not necessarily his view, it is just simply the statistical reality based on infidelity research (obviously there are exceptions). Also, there are plenty of affairs that are strictly emotional. They may have eventually turned physical, or there may have been geographic distance or other factors that precluded it progressing to that, but it is by no means uncommon and clearly devastating to the spouses.

Strictly physical affairs themselves, can arguably not be completely void of emotional infidelity. My wife's affairs were physical- she did not have any external emotions towards the men she slept with, but we both can sure tell you that they were fulfilling an internal emotional desire and need. And, they darn sure were taking emotions away from our marriage and relationship. She withheld sex, love, and companionship, not because she was in love with someone else, but because of her internal turmoil (guilt, shame, fear, contradictions, etc.). So her physical affair was very destructive to our marriage, and once discovered, has proven utterly disastrous in many ways. By the way, I don't see the physical aspect in the same way that Cole and many others do, as far as a sacred covenant (religious facet). But it still was a shared bond. A promise. An inherent and ineffable contract that took a mountain of lies and deceit to cover up its breaking. And though I could even argue that it can be reduced to a simple, evolutionary response to my sexual territory being usurped, so what? It still haunts me constantly, it is still there when I look at my wife, it still destroyed my view of her, it still destroyed my view of myself, it still almost ended in tragedy, and it still hurts like hell.

It's depressing to hear that men value sexual fidelity above all else in their partner. To me it suggests that our function to them is primarily sexual.

Spikey, Just as you may have had your share of non emotionaly attached sexual relationships, many proplr have had friendships blossom into falling Inlove without crossing the sexual physical contact. Asking why a person or people feel more or less threatened by one type of A over another is like me and many others asking our spouses/so why the A took place. Sometimes there is no answer that can satisfy another person if it doesn't go along with their sense of reasoning.

All of these whys and how's can run us in circles. I am curious what type of infidelity brought you here.

Gabbi was trying to help me understand the how. Meaning, you aren't deliberately doing it to hurt me but you know I will be devastated and yet you choose to do it anyway. Of course I will never get an answer that gives me any real sense of security. Therefor it is my responsibility to figure out how to move past it.

Spiky if you are new here I suggest browsing through some of the profiles and journals as well as posts. It can give you a better idea of the statistics of male A vs female A. I agree just from this board that more men engage in the PA and woman engage more in the EA. the reactions to all seem to be a mixed bag but the actions of the A seem to be statistically as cole said. I've learned a lot since being here