you have been ignored and dismissed for years, and now, ready to pull the trigger on a moment of VERY LOUD VOICE SPEAKING THAT EVERYONE IS GOING TO HEAR in the form of legal papers, you are numb. of course you are numb. of course you are teetering on the brink. have you ever looked in the face of someone running the last few yards of a marathon? you are shell shocked, exhausted and mad as hell. but that is not the same as still in love, regretting your decision, and hoping to reconcile, is it?

i think if you were able to stand at divorce's doorway and then suddenly engage in MC like you were hoping to rebuild a relationship you would be insane. i mean more insane than you probably feel now. certifiable. does your therapist feel like you have guilt? or think you haven't tried everything, is that where the advice to try MC came from? because to me hesitating and not wanting to go through with it are not the same thing.

also, here's the thing about the session. if you told him things for years and suddenly a MC says it and he magically "gets it" its bullshit. i'm sorry i couldn't have been more gentle but i hate crap like that. his reaction wasn't satisfying to you, because you could feel that it was bullshit. the MC calling you on the sly is unethical as hell, and frankly should really be the last time you ever talk to her. it doesn't matter if your husband kills people and wears their skin, she should NOT be calling you to say "does he kill people and wear their skin?" and then to ask you to lie to himI'm sorry, is she supposed to be helping you? is SHE killing people and wearing their skin? if she is seeing red flags in him she is supposed to handle it, not gossip with you like a 9 year old on a playground. and if she is seeing red flags in him she should be smart enough to know that bringing you into her triangulating bullshit is putting you at risk. first of all, she has completely invalidated herself as a MC and impartial party. also, she has no idea what he would do if he found out you were talking about him behind his back. for the first time ever he would actually have every right to flip out and act like a maniac and she served that up to him like a ham sandwich. outrageous, unprofessional, stupid and embarrassing. will i ever tire of hearing about crappy therapists?

there is no reason why, after years and years of behavior that has destroyed and undermined you, that he would not understand what you mean. that just doesn't make logical sense. even if he has some kind of "academic" mental damage or disfunction, does it matter? does it change how you continue to feel even here, on the absolute edge of no return? does it matter why he tunes you out and otherwise acts like a jackass? does it change your experience of it? would it make you stay with him if he was diagnosed with a tumor leaning on the jackass center of his brain? it seems like you are really trying to make sure you have looked under every rock and followed every clue, and you want someone to give you the go ahead that you have a right to walk away. being miserable is enough notmyself, you have more than earned the right to run. you should NOT be allowed to speak with his therapist, although who the heck knows? maybe his IC would plant a hidden camera and the two of you could watch a session together and eat popcorn, it seems consistent with some of the things i hear about. but again, it doesn't really matter, it wont change how you feel to have a therapist confirm or deny what you already knowyou are unhappy.

eventually you will have to interact with your ex for the kids. eventually you will have to be able to speak without anger. eventually, it would be nice if it was friendly. eventually. but not only is that not your responsibility it has no expiration date. focus on one thing at a time. if you want to file papers, breathe and then do it. worry about subsequent relationship with him later, you have a long time to work that out. don't overwhelm yourself with trying to cover every base and get every relationship stable. focus on yourself. then your kids. get yourselves through it. then, after your ex has that surgery to remove his tumor you can see if you still want to punch him and take it from there.

I'm w/vern on this! I apologize in advance, but I can't find one positive thing about this so-called marriage counselor! And I can't think of a way to sugar coat this, so I'm just gonna say it straight out. Ya gotta remember, a marriage counselors job is to help fix & put a marriage back together. (My guess is that your h wants to put it back together the way it was, not fix it.) That's why she wants you to put the past behind you and accounts for her suggestion to recall happier times. But it's still BS when the problems that got you there aren't addressed, even in a non-abusive marriage.

IMHO, everything about her is a big fat red flag!!!! She lives in la la land if she believes kids are FINE when parents divorce if they do so amicably! That is such a crock. Even w/the most amicable divorce, kids would benefit from some therapy. If the kids are young, they tend to blame themselves for mommy & daddy splitting, no matter what mommy & daddy say, even if it's all positive. And that won't happen until daddy fixes himself and I will bet that ain't gonna happen any time soon.

AND in the case of one of the parents being abusive, they will need a lot of therapy, even if the abuse is not directed at them. There is a lot of research out there that says just witnessing abuse can cause damage to the hippocampus that can result in PTSD, among other things, but w/therapy that can be reversed.

Do you really think your h will be nice about the divorce? Do you think he will play nice w/you? Do you think he will only say nice things about you to the kids? If he can't take responsibility or be accountable for his actions now, do you really think he will if you get divorced (for the kids' sake)?

And like I said in your journal, she obviously has no clue when it comes to the dynamics of abuse. You don't just start over fresh or look at each other and recall happier times. pul-eeeeeese! And she went round the bend when she talked to you behind his back. Wonder what she's saying to him behind your back......

I would RUN - not walk - as fast as I could away from her. I might even report her. What she did was unethical according to the various codes of ethics for therapists & counselors I've read.

One last thing...IMHO it doesn't matter whether he's slow getting 'it' due to a mental or emotional disability. The question is do you want to deal w/how he is for the rest of your life? And, do you want your kids exposed to his abuse?

I am just so sorry you have to deal w/all of this. There ARE good therapists out there. It's just a shame she doesn't appear to be one of them.

Hi Not,

First I want to clarify that I'M NOT A PROFESSIONAL. Also, I want to clarify that I DON'T HAVE KIDS, so I'm not going to speak on your counsellors opinion on the effects of divorce on kids even though I, myself am from a broken home. I don't discount the previous posts at all, I just got a slightly different take (maybe I am misunderstanding).

Thing about the MC suggesting not even worrying about the marriage being saved and just focusing on being friends again: I'm sorry, but I think she is right on the mark here.

First, MC's aren't in the business of saving marriages alone...they are equally in the business of helping individuals or couples realize, accept and cope with the fact that their marriages may be over. It is not up to an MC to save a marriage or decide that it should be saved...that's up to the individual or couple.

Second, I know you want him to "get it" like right now! We all do, but I think you also know that's not going to happen. If he ever gets it, it will take time and A LOT of therapy. I don't think the MC was sweeping anything under the rug when she suggested that you need to just focus on trying to be friends again. I think she was saying this because you are still so raw and hypersensitive (and you have EVERY reason to be - NOT YOUR FAULT!!!!!) that she is trying to pull back your expectations to a "friendship" level rather than a "marriage" level so that you may learn just to LIKE him again. In other words...pretend you just met him for the first time and have the same expectations of "respect" that you would for any stranger...not a husband...and then start building from there (while he continues to work HARD on himself). I could be totally off base, but I took it this way because I know that's what I would have to do if I ever tried to get back with my ex. Start from scratch...leave the past behind. BUT WITH MY EYES WIDE OPEN...DON'T MISUNDERSTAND ME ON THAT ONE!!!!

About your therapist calling you on the sly...again I'm not a professional and a professional would be able to advise you on the proper ethics of this, but Dr. Lundy Bancroft spoke often in his book about contacting the abused partners of his clients (a lot court mandated of course...not sure if that makes a difference). This was imperative in his abuse treatment program because he knew he wouldn't get the true/complete story from an abuser. If your husband wasn't an abuser I'd agree the rest, run...but are the ethics the same when you're dealing with a patient that is manipulative? I don't know.

Finally, I think all abusers are emotionally immature...hence the reason they "don't get it". Emotionally immaturity results in lack of empathy and a sense of entitlement...some of the core traits of an abuser. Please do not confuse this with a mental or intellectual disability. I am not a doctor, just providing my thoughts based on experience...anyone can feel free to disagree. Mentally challenged people can be some of the most caring, kind hearted, well intentioned, innocent souls on earth. Why, in my opinion???? The don't have it in them to be any other way. In other words, they don't have the capacity to be manipulative, calculating, self serving, controlling, etc. This is the one part of your post that made me think you might want to find another MC...if she really thinks this might be a mental issue rather than an emotional one??? I'd ask her for clarification on that one at the very least.

Just my two cents. I'm sorry you are going through this...I know how confusing it can be!

We could say that ALL abusers have some kind of mental disability in regards to lack of empathy. But does that mean you are to sacrifice your right to live abuse free because of something out of your control?

MC is always a no no in abusive relationships because its not abuse counselling.

Being friends would be fine, with someone who is friend material. Abusers are NOT friend material. It makes no odds if you are a wife, a friend, a family member, the neighbour or a work colleague, abusers will always be abusers to all those people because the problem lies with the abuser. They carry that part of their personality with them where ever they go UNLESS they have therapy that aids them in fixing their belief system about the world around them.

I don't think it's a mental disability to be abusive, personally I think it's a belief system and one of THE hardest things to change is someone's belief system, even for themselves!

The problem is with belief systems is that part of the system is to keep the system alive, protected and in existence! That's the cycle of a belief. That's what makes it SO powerful.

Only when someone can let go of that belief can they start a new one, one that's healthy and one that is less fearful.

This is what he needs to do and also so do you (in terms of why your at where u are at, as we all have to look within in order to grow)

But he seems dead set on sticking to his beliefs! Sorry!

Oh my god.

Where to start?

I don't have enough
time in this day or
any other to begin
to touch on all the
convolutions in this
situations.

First of all,

co-parenting is possible
with almost no face-to-face
or voice-to-voice contact.
It can be done by
emails and texts.
It can be done
without being "friends."

Second, marriage counseling
is NEVER APPROPRIATE
in an abusive relationship.

Third, your abuser
has not suddenly
"gotten it."

What he's gotten
is another personality
to manipulate, another
opportunity to be abusive.

Please ---- not -----
please check in with
your gut.

Your gut has the answer.

And yes, you cannot ethically
check in with his counselor.
My hunch is that he's
attempted to manipulate
that counselor, anyway.. .. . .
and has possibly succeeded.

If you're still hoping for him
to have the "ah ha" moment,
you're likely to be waiting
for a very long time. I hope
you wn't invest any more
time waiting for what
would indeed be,
a miracle.

Please take good care.

Sending hugs
and healing wishes.

My opinions here - a MCs job is to work for BOTH partners to reach some kind of workable relationship. It's NOT a MCs job to rule on who is right and who is wrong. Their counseling training tells them they are to help everyone, and yes that even includes abusers. They MAY see the abuse, but they won't let you know and say "he's abusive, this won't work, break up." Instead they will try and address various issues and achieve some kind of workable communication. Same is true with an IC - they rarely say "he's abusive, leave him"; instead they tend to work on individual issues and feelings and eventually you come to that point on your own.

Here's my experience: I went into counseling with her hoping that would be an appropriate forum to discuss very serious issues without her becoming self destructive (attempting suicide). It's taken a few sessions, but I finally feel comfortable opening up about some issues without worrying about the aftermath. But I have noticed something - the counselor spends the beginning of the session talking to her about how she is doing. My GF is open about having mental illnesses, but at first tried to downplay them. But it's plainly obvious to me that the counselor has picked up on the personality disorder and the abuse without me having to say anything. In fact, GF abused me right in the session! So, the counselor knows about the abuse, and about the mental illness, but still tries to find workable and constructive solutions. And so far, things have improved. But I think they have only improved because my GF is willing to admit she has issues. She admits to the counselor that she was mean to me, but not that she is still mean. But I still haven't heard the "aha" moment. By that I mean the moment where she doesn't just say she was mean to me, but actually feels and understands the extend and mechanism by which she was mean.

Your H probably has a mental health issue, whether it be a personality disorder, ADHD, bipolar, who knows. But it's still no excuse, and no reason for you to stick around just to see if he can get better. The problem is, you can't work on relationship problems if one person has a serious issue (an abuser) that needs to be addressed before functional communication can happen. that's the issue I face - I don't think we can have functional and healthy communication as a couple until she can control her anger and let go of some of the baggage she is carrying. For example, how can we talk about shared household responsibilities (such as cleaning) when she's extremely depressed and barely will meet her own personal needs?

Good luck to you. I know it sounds like a "twist", but trust me, the road ahead hasn't gotten any easier.

WOW - thank you all for your insight! It has helped me tremendously. I also had IC today and discussed this with her.

A lot of what you guys are saying is what my IC said.

Whereas it was wrong of MC to talk to me behind my H back, she felt that since it was a very sensitive topic - to address someone in asking if they have some kind of "disability" - perhaps she wanted to know from me beforehand - since we've been together for 22 years. Especially since the MC recognized H anxiousness and how uncomfortable he was during our session. IC felt maybe MC was being cautious and didn't want to set my H off by asking him this out of the blue and wanted some insight first. She said I should tell her that I was uncomfortable with talking out of the sessions.

IC also said, that H control and behavior sounds very much like its coming from fear and anxiety. Which in turn causes him to act like a scared child at times. If I don't answer his txt or call immediately, if plans change, if I want time to myself,.. these things worry him because of his own insecurities. In no way does it make it ALRIGHT, it just helps me to understand where it's coming from.

In trying to explain myself I would describe my H as emotionally immature, cant make decisions, a worrier, etc. IC said that he MAY have a personality disorder, etc and that may be why his IC is suggesting the things she is to him - Slow down his thinking, meditation, stay in the moment, etc.

She also said that MC is often times used as a means to an end. Not that I want or think this marriage can be saved. But since I am struggling and dealing with guilt - feeling badly that he seems to "need" me - that to talk about these things in the presence of a MC, they may be able to help the abuser to see and come to terms with the divorce. Even if they can't - and most likely won't - get them to truly understand why I want the divorce and have their "ah-ha" moment.

IC suggested that I ask H IF his IC ever suggested medication - to relieve some of his anxiety. She said based on what she knows about him after months of our sessions, and what his IC is having him do, that she feels anxiety meds may help calm him down a bit.

Now - the sad thing is - today I came to the realization that I am no longer emotionally attracted to my H. And that completely explains why Ive felt things like, he's no longer my partner, I need to do for him, etc.

There is nothing I can do about that. But IF meds can help him relax, we then MAY be able to become friends - down the line...

Vern - I do tend to like to have all my ducks in a row. The problem with that is, I can have 4 ducks lined up and while struggling to get that last duck in line, the first 2 swim out of line...and so on.... Which is where I'm at now....stuck, so to speak.

I am sad today because this sounds like we really pieced together a lot of the puzzle today. The realization makes sense to me about my H - in respect to his behavior.

But the bottom line is - how much longer do i wait around to see if he can have this behavior adjustment with meds, and then we "start from scratch" being friends and see if it can blossom from there...

It will take a TON OF HARD WORK on his part. And I'm not sure he can do it.

I will say this, I haven't felt so at peace with myself as I do today in regards to everything making sense. And yet I feel horrible if my marriage doesn't work out. I feel badly for my H if he is in fact so filled with anxiety and insecurity and fear. Because I feel like I'd be abandoning him - a scared child.

Many awesome, insightful things said already. There are some pretty smart cookies on here!

A few things that hit me. "If I don't answer his txt or call immediately, if plans change, if I want time to myself,.. these things worry him because of his own insecurities. In no way does it make it ALRIGHT, it just helps me to understand where it's coming from." Yes, one answer to that is insecurity. Another is NEEDING CONTROL!

I feel I'm hearing something familiar, something I struggled with for a very long time. I wanted my H to "get it". The thing is, it is NOT your job to make him get it. It is his job to figure out what to do in order to get it. In my heart of hearts I think you're wanting him to get it is what is keeping you stuck. Its keeping your hand hovering over the "escape" button.

I agree with the great insights already posted. And what Ilene said is very important I believe---TRUST YOUR GUT! Its what keeps people from following others down a dark alley. The acid churning in your stomach is your intelligence knocking on your heart going "hey get me out of here!"

Reading all these responses just make me so proud of all you guys. People don't see their own insightfulness but I gotta say that each and every response posted here thus far has been packed with wisdom. And how did this wisdom come? From experience. Don't be charmed by the degrees hanging on a wall. I'd rather fly in a plane with a pilot who's flown in the military than with another guy who can boast about 10 years of flight school.

You've been living this Not. You've already way past earned your life degree. You CAN trust yourself, you've just been trained not to.

I fully realize that what I'm going to say probably isn't going to be very popular.... but as the wife of someone who was horribly verbally abusive for years and years and has done a shitload of work on himself over the past 2.5 years to make our former hell of a marriage into a very loving and respectful one, I feel like I have something legitimate to contribute about what your MC said.

My husband also recieved this advice from his therapist (who is a PhD clinical psychologist) about 22 months ago....that we needed to spend time together, date, remember why we fell in love and a bunch more of what your's told you. My reaction was very much like yours at first.....there was no way in heck I wanted to do that BUT I can tell you after the last 22 months (well, a bit less as it took me a while to get to the point where he had built up enough positive credits with me for me to want to make the effort and feel comfortable doing so) she was 100 percent right.

It's not about rug sweeping, it's about creating a positivie environment where you can talk about, work on and resolve the issues and past hurt and anger. It's about learning to communicate with each other in respectful way and having that positive environment from dating and learning to be friends creates the foundation for being able to do that. BUT he needs to be working his butt off to understand, to consider your feelings, to work on his stuff and to make it up to you (the investment part she was talking about).

It took my husband a while to really get it after he made the committment to me to change. He went through crappy ICs and time for everything really sinking in, etc. And it has been a ton of work and a lot of investment on both our parts, but we have managed to save our marriage, make it a healthy and loving marriage and save our family...and at our lowest, we had both talked to attorneys and I could barely stand to be around him.....and I am SO very grateful for his therapist encourgaing us to date (he waited patiently until I felt comfortable with it)....it helped turn our whole marriage around. We had to do exactly what she said, start from scratch and take it slow, revuild a fundation for a strong marriage from the ground up. I can hardly believe the difference it has made, what we have been able to bulld. It's amazing.

And just fyi, my husband never had an ah - ha moment. I can look back now and see that he started thinking abut things and "got it" over time, as his behavior changed and as he worked, more and more fell into place. He journaled, he talked, he thought, he quietly worked, but it was never a grand "ah ha."

Yes, you might be just done, yes he may not get it and isn't capable of doing the work.....but there is legitimate value to what the MC told you....my husband and I are living proof of it.

I am still trying to heal from my Marriage "counseling" more like - abuse sessions...

I did what you did and any normal rational person would that is trying to save a marriage - I would listen and actually try what she said. And get hurt again and again. Really badly. Some of the worst emotional abuse I suffered. I actually was thinking about a session just the other day. That was nearly 5 years ago. I remember every detail. And just like with abuse memories it popped up out of nowhere. please prevent this from happening to you...

You just cannot have healthy "therapy" repair of the marriage if you are in sessions with an abuser. Please protect yourself. Consider individual therapy for yourself. You deserve the one on one support.

oops read further and saw you had IC! GOOD! :)

There are some rare instances where abusers can turn things around. But like Ilene has mentioned hundreds if not thousands of times on this board, the recidivism rate is close to 100% and the "cure" rate is close to 0%.

For what it's worth, I think the MC is playing in an area she is not equipped to handle. Trust your gut!

Hi Notmyself,

I am so late because I've been trying to figure out what to say...

Mine never even went to IC until he used it as a baiting tactic after the first time I left him, and he wouldn't go to MC at all. That inexperience of mine plus not having any kids makes it hard to have an opinion that would help you.

I do agree with those who said that someone having the sickness of a personality disorder is not necessarily a cue for you to stay with them. It certainly should never be used by that person or anyone else to attempt to justify them abusing you. If you can forgive, that's good, but forgetting or laying aside the memory of what they did to you will only open you to more hurt if it leads you to allow them to repeat it.

I don't think we would say, "X is a serial killer, but it's to be expected really: they've got Y disorder. Oh well, just got to live with them."

Abuse doesn't always involve physical death, but it does always involve killing - the spirit, the life we could have had if not for that treatment, is killed. And that is just as bad.

Please don't forget all that has happened if it still matters to you. Even if it does stop now or in future, previous abuse is reason enough to leave if the realisation that it happened stops you from trusting or being able to live with the person. It's such a personal thing, I can't say any more than that.

Huge hugs xxx

notmyself i get what your saying about the ducks in a row, 2 of them swimming away while you assemble the other ones.stupid ducks. and then the very act of trying to get everything under some semblance of control provides a distraction from big abuse issues, and when you look back at them they are huge and roaming the streets. the whole business of getting everything "organized" when trying to take big life steps is an illusion, isn't it? the reality is coping with this stuff is more like running down the street screaming and swatting at thousands of bees trying to sting the crap out of you.

i am constantly amazed at the capacity for compassion on this site. in the midst of this awful mess, facing the stupidity of a man treating you so horribly for 2 decades that it almost kills you, you can still see possibility in him, and still feel badly for his emotional limitations. you have attained a dalai llama level of empathy. it is inspiring to see that despite the pain and the years and years of erosion you have not lost your humanity and love at your core. i sometimes feel i am disappearing under the weight of convolution, you are RIGHTEOUS thank you for reminding me superstars exist. Summer you are a rare success story, and i have to say imagining myself in your shoes sitting in counseling with my ex trying to remember why we fell in love makes me projectile vomit around the room. i cannot imagine the mental gymnastics involved in that, you deserve every nanosecond of happiness you've achieved. maybe this is the difference between someone trying to correct horrific coping and relationship skills and someone who wears abusive daggers in their coat like jack the ripper, only engaging in conversation long enough to get you close enough to be stabbed.

notmyself the recognition that your love for your husband has now morphed into something different explains your numbness a little. it's hard to leave a baby in a basket on the steps of the orphanage, and thats how it feels when you are a caretaker. that's different than an adult leaving another adult, and adds a sheen a guilt and responsibility on top of everything else. this insight is big, you have done an amazing amount of growth in a super short time, you are like a human chia pet! keep being awesome notmyself, it gives angry crybabies like me hope!

Summer
Thank you for sharing your story. I commend you for being able to get to a partnership again in your marriage. If you don't mind me asking, your husbands verbal abuse, did it stem from him being emotionally stunted, childlike who needed to control you and situations due to extreme anxiety or was it that he was like a narc who was mean and selfish? See, I no longer feel like husband and i are on the same page emotionally. I've grown over the years and yearn for a Partner - emotionally, mentally and physically.

I understand both sides of the MC.
1. MC is to help couples on their problems between 2 mature adults dealing with difficulties more or less - of course I'm simplifying just to make my point. MC can't work when one of the partners is not on the same emotional/mental level. In cases like that, the abusive individual needs to work on themself first in order to get to the mature healthy level, to Then consider being a partner and then working on the marriage.
2. I can see now that maybe my MC was not rug sweeping persay, but rather trying to get me to releasd the pent up anger and hurt in order to have a healthy, positive environment.

See, my husband has to emotionally grow up. Be able to figure things out on his own. We married at 25. I loved him and the whole idea of forever-after. I became the "perfect wife" doting on him, making sure he was happy. We were married 9 years until we finally had children - through adoption, after 4 years of failed fertility treatments. I wanted so badly to become a mom and fill my need of being needed. So in looking back, I inadvertently became a "mom" to my husband. I took over his mothers role! I enabled him! So the guilt I feel now is crippling bc I want more. I have 2 beautiful children, I have a f/t career, I run the house - I want an equal. A partner. Someone who will have my back. Handle big emotional events, changes. Be a hands on dad. Make me feel like a desireable woman. He doesn't. And he's been this way for so long. How can he possible grow and do the work and grow into the partner I need and want at this stage? I've been feeling this way for over 3 years and can trace it back to at least 12, upon further soul searching.

I'm so incredible sad and lonely.

Bean -
I'm so sorry for your struggles and all you went through. I hope you are in a better place now. IC is definitely helping me cope.