p.s. ------

You could NOT have
helped him.

Probably not even
the best clinician
in this country nor
any other could
have helped him.

Dysfunction like that
is really, really hard
to repair.

Thanks lleneW. But these few instances were the very worst of him...these are instances that were spread over a long period of time so I didn't even catch on until he became angry. You don't think it was love, and his anger just got the best of him?

People who are abusive don't express love--though distorted?

MOST abusers
can't FEEL
love. They
feel NEED.

What they express
may look like love
at first, but it's
NOT love. It's
a manipulation
in order to
CAPTURE
their
SUPPLY.

I know that it's sad,
but it's true.

I agree. It's hard for me to imagine love without empathy. And he clearly was unemphatic towards you. The emotional connection to what you are feeling was absent.

Expressing love can be done WITHOUT actually loving. I spent almost 4 decades making excuses for the abuser's lack of empathy and meanness, not just to me but the kids and pets and others. Even tho he told me he loved me multiple times a day, his actions betrayed his words. In between the intermittent acts of meanness APPEARED to be a very nice guy. In the end, the meanness overtook the niceness.

Every incident you have described in this thread reeks of abuse.
1. Acting out the abuse
2. Saying I love you after the abuse
3. Denying the abuse
4. Blaming you for the abuse
5. Justifying the abuse
6. Deflecting back to what is wrong with you
7. Saying you're too sensitive
8. His insecurity/jealousy
9. Trying to make you feel crazy and that your memory is bad
10. "Acting" like a caregiver to others, but not always to YOU
11. Calling back and saying he feels bad (then repeating the abusive behavior (see above)

These are just things you said he did on the first 1 1/2 pages of your thread. They are ALL typical abuse tactics. They don't have to happen all the time for it to be called abuse. But they usually escalate over time.

He is definitely NOT there for you mentally emotionally or any other way. He is NOT supportive and NOT empathetic. And his actions ARE ABUSIVE.

And, BTW, your "mentor" sucks! What this "mentor" is doing is removing the responsibility of your abuser's actions by using anger as an justifiable excuse.

Expressing anger by being abusive is not a healthy way to deal with anger. There are much better, healthier and NON-HURTFUL ways to deal with anger. I hope you aren't paying this "mentor" for his/her services. I would ask for my money back and then fire their butt.

Please consider getting therapy with a qualified therapist who is specially trained in recovery from abuse to help you understand the dynamics, how to set and keep boundaries and how to recognize abuse and the red flags that go with it.

You deserve to be loved unconditionally and to live an abuse free life.
~healing hugs~

BTW, I truly understand not wanting to believe that someone who claimed to love us could or would be abusive. It's really hard to comprehend, let alone accept.

There's a reason you're here in this group. And chances are that part of it is about getting validation. That's something rarely rec'd in a relationship with an abuser.

You said you feel terrible for judging him based off the two incidents you listed in your OP. I believe that as you look back, you will find many many more, probably more subtle.

If you haven't yet, please consider doing Ilene's Index Card Exercise.

~healing hugs~

I just wanted to touch on something MTC said, about how hard it is to accept that the person you loved and who claimed to love you was abusive. It is hard, incredibly hard. But it's also liberating. Because the fact that he's not capable of love in the way that we are (whether you want to call that "love - though distorted" or something that is not love at all) means that there is nothing you could have done or been that would have stopped him being abusive. One of the other things they all tend to do is to shift the goal posts. They tell you that the reason they are mean is because you do x or don't do x. So you do everything in your power to comply with this. And then they tell you that the reason they are mean to you is because you do y or don't do y. Or worse still, they have told you that if you did x, they wouldn't have to be mean to you, then when you do it they blow up at you for doing the very thing they said would prevent the abuse.

Nothing you could have done would prevent the abuse, because it's not about you, it's about him. It's who he is, not a reflection of or in any way caused by who you are.

Thank you for your insight llenw, sidii, MTC, and livendadrem. Helps a lot.
I had gotten my family involved over these two instances, yes. But now that I reflect you are right. The more I gave him of myself the more he wanted, all the while saying I do not love him enough and how hurt he is. First he agreed to let me do my MA, then after engagement, "Well I want 5 kids so when are you going to have time to do that? Are you one to neglect the family?"
He disrespected my parents and brothers a lot when they were out of earshot, and even said "Under my guardianship I will always protect you, your parents cannot do as well as a job as I will. You're like Rapunzel locked in her tower. I'm like Prince Charming coming to rescue you."
Perhaps this had to do with his insecurity but whenever we disagreed--for example I didn't appreciate how he smoked and said I don't want our future children to be exposed to that, he said, "well you drink coffee and that's unhealthy too so..." And then he would say, "You wanna break it off? Let's break it off." Over every small disagreement, no argumentation involved, he would suggest to break it off. And word it in such a way that I would be the bad guy. So I just let everything slide, but still he wasn't satisfied and said I do not love him enough.

He called me all the time. We talked 5-6 hours a day. Even when I went out with my friends he still called even when I told him I'll be out, and called several times. And when I told him I'm with my friends he says "Ohhh...priorities..." And then quickly said he's joking.
When I called him back on my way home he didn't answer, until a couple hours later. And said, "Yes? I'm with my family." An upper-handedness thing I feel.
The next day I brought up how awesome it was that we talk so much, and "Man...I wonder how long we can go without talking to each other."
He said "Yeah let's do it. Grab your tissues you're gonna need it. You're gonna crack first."
It was all in fun and good spirit. But then it became weird...it became a test to test ego after this: he was joking how he wanted to marry my friends. He's done this before, and when I became upset he said, "Woooow you're so insecure..." so this time I said, "Fine. Okay." He became sad and said I wasn't attached enough. He said "We will see who needs to fix their ego." And so then I felt instead of it being fun it became a mind game.
I was on my way to a road trip with my family. On the way I texted him and said this was stupid, and that I wanted to talk, because this was getting weird. Nonetheless later on our car broke down so we were stuck, and he called and said, "See baby? Be careful of what you wish for. When you said to play that game, look at what you brought on yourself...you wont be home for a few days so we cant talk as much. Lesson learned."
I always felt like I was walking on eggshells, and everything was my fault. And he kept saying I stabbed him, that I hurt him though I promised I would never hurt him, and I kept thinking...man...what a terrible, cruel-hearted person am I? How terrible of a human being am I? I felt so incompetent. He knew I was a soft person, and he even made me doubt my own softness. He knew I was into education, and he doubted the importance of my education. He knew I had a certain style of dress, and he would say, "You don't even know what you like yet. You need to dress more professionally. Spouses should match."

It was all one confusing haze. Intense "love" intense frustration, and all the while I felt like I was drowning and could do nothing right. I was so confident before this relationship. So confident. I have to get that back :(

I am far from being a genius, it's your ex that is very unoriginal. It's a classic -
1/ Holding the relationship as hostage
2/ comparing you to your friends, like anyone could be in your position
3/ criticizing your looks
4/ blaming you for how you respond to his abuse
These are just some of the pathetic tactics abusers use to control their partners.

I'm so sorry sweetie, but what you described about his behavior in your last two comments was not done in the spirit of fun or joking on his part. But he wanted you to believe it was. Those are words that abusers use to cover up the mental and emotional abuse and to keep their source off balance. In almost every joke that pokes fun at another person, there is an underlying not very nice tone to it.

"I always felt like I was walking on eggshells, and everything was my fault."

THIS is a huge indicator that you were with an abuser! And that it didn't just happen w/those two incidents.

I went back and read some of your other posts and I would say that while you may be just focusing on two incidents in this one, there were many more examples of him being abusive in your other posts.
Please go back and read your very first posts as if someone else wrote them.

Then, take each individual thing you said and put them on an index card, one per card. (See Ilene's Index Card Exercise which I will bump for you.) Based on what I read, you will have quite a few cards, just from the few posts you've made in this group.

Then, I think you will see that, in fact, he was abusive from the get-go. Typical textbook abuse by being nice and sweeping you off your feet. Then later criticizing you for not being mature, etc.

Calling you in the middle of the night out of concern for you, etc. is NOT a nice thing to do. It was really very inconsiderate because it interrupted you getting your much needed sleep.

There were a ton of red flags in those first posts, both before and after you were married.

Just one example:
"He would constantly manipulate me to say things to him and say hes afraid of my religiosity. He said it will break the family and take attention away from him and our future kids. I assured him this wasn't the case, family is first for me. He used religion for his advantage when he wanted tho, and make me feel very guilty.
Once he was talking sexually and I said I wasn't comfortable with that and he said I was "mentally immature for marriage" and "he's afraid to have children with me" and "I need to "grow up" because this was the real deal, and would often make me kiss him on the phone. When I wouldn't, he said he's going to a strip club to call all the girls there my name until I was his, and would constantly joke and say he was interested in marrying my friends--he was always trying to make me jealous. Mind games."

Mind games, yes, but more importantly, they are a form of ABUSE. He was already beginning to wear you down and erode your self-esteem.


Also, I can't tell the time frame, so I don't know how long ago you broke it off w/your ex or if you are still in contact with him, so I will add some things here that may or may not apply.

1. If you are still in contact with him, please consider going complete No Contact now.

2. Break up with your 'mentor' and go No Contact with that person as well.

3. get therapy with a counselor who has specialized training in recovery from trauma and abuse.

Please please, stop beating yourself up. This wasn't your fault. We all miss the red flags of abuse for several reasons, not the least of which we don't want to believe what is happening.

I understand that we all have to spend some time talking about what they did, sorting it out and trying to understand the un-understandable. But, at some point we realize that there is no explaining, rationalizing or justifying abuse.

Please do NOT let it continue to let it consume your life. Your life is precious and the ILLUSION of his goodness doesn't outweigh the monstrosity of his abusiveness.

I know I keep harping about seeing qualified therapist, but it IS CRITICAL in your healing process. Healing from abuse is difficult and almost always takes a lot of time. Many times more time than the actual relationship lasted. That's because of the severe trauma abusers impose (whether overt or covert) mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually.

Please take good care of you and give yourself the gift of therapy and allowing however much time you need to heal.

~healing hugs~

MTC, you should be a psychologist. Your words are medicinal. I guess when you think abuser, you think those guys on those criminal TV shows, aggressive and evil and the obvious antagonist who beat their wives. My ex fiance is celebrated in his family, in the community, amongst his friends, amongst great religious teachers, as being the most selfless, the most giving person. So when I think "abuser" in context of him, I think I am certainly the wrong one here, I'm the immature one who could not be patient with his few anger bursts, his good qualities outweighed the bad, etc.
But as you put it, the "ILLUSION of his goodness doesn't outweigh the monstrosity of his abusiveness."
Hopefully I'll believe that soon. I did start therapy--not with that mentor. My therapist, after our first session day before yesterday, said he is narcissistic, has histrionic personality disorder, and has bipolar tendencies. I did not even tell her half my story.
And I did go No Contact with him--it's been a couple months since we broke it off.

Sidi when you word it like that, condensed and in bullet form, it does seem awful. I guess in the jumble of his endearing nature, entwined with his hurtful words, you don't realize the essence of things as they are until you feel yourself crumbling inside. Until you break and his words, "blow this out of proportion" and "Am I THAT bad of a person? What did I DO to you? I just asked you to dress a little differently and to not take some classes until a few years...what is WRONG with that? I can't BELIEVE you." And I felt my claim as wrong, seeing myself as very immature and undeserving of his love. And that is why I was begging my parents to not call it off. When they called, as I mentioned previously, they said "We think you are all a wonderful family, and your son is a wonderful person. However, we find some compatibility issues, with all due respect. Our daughter wished to pursue her education, and that is something she will not be able to do if we were to pursue this." He said, "She is a liar!" and when my parents said they had texts he said, "Texts can be fabricated and taken out of context!" and then "You wanna talk about texts? Your daughter told me some difficulties you and your husband are going through!" (Never tell an "abuser" your secrets...lesson learned. It WILL be used against you!) in retaliation and his mother said, "Your daughter is mentally unstable."
My parents ended the phone call with no regrets.

Wish me luck. Thank you so much for your wisdom Sidi and MTC.

I forgot. Once during a disagreement (I was not shouting or using disrespectful language) he said "my love for you is turning into hatred." Another time we went out to eat and I sensed a lot of distance--averting gaze, monosyllabic answers. It was because he didn't like my outfit and he kept looking at the window reflection to see "how we look together" and "if we fit." Only half an hour into our food did he start talking more and then said "I'm finding you attractive now....most girls I go for looks but I never liked their personality. With you I love your personality and you're beautiful but I need to teach you to dress better. Girls should wear designer and be more kempt."
I was never self-conscious until I met him.

******* "I guess in the jumble of his endearing nature, entwined with his hurtful words, you don't realize the essence of things as they are until you feel yourself crumbling inside." *******

Abuse in a nutshell. If it was all bad, we would never fall for it but would walk away. It's the good mixed in with the bad that makes it so hard. But make no mistake, the good is just as much abuse as the bad - the good is there to try to prevent you walking away and to keep you wondering whether it really is all you, whether you really are just blowing a few little things out of proportion etc. The "nice" stuff is a hook.