Cole:

As I read your questions / thoughts one thing comes to mind that you are trying to anticipate everything that might come at you down the road. I don't think it is possible to lay out every possible scenario.

Like L says...trying to reconcile is taking a gamble. You can not anticipate every little bump in the road. At two months out you are really just beginning on this journey. I understand that by trying to anticipate every possible scenario that you can hope to have a smoother recovery and avoid the pitfalls but I think you are putting your energies into anticipation rather than dealing with what is happening with you now.

It is impossible to anticipate everything that will be coming at you. Our recovery has been smooth in places, sloppy in places, angry in places but also rewarding. I can only look at what is happening at the moment and deal with that versus putting my energy worrying about what might come up.

You have put some effort here in describing scenarios where the CS screws up again. Or the BS just gives up...but there are even more scenarios and that is why I think you are spinning your wheels on things that may or may not crop up...In the past I have read where the BS eventually had their own A. Is it revenge or just because when the temptation comes along they think "screw it, my spouse wasn't faithful to me...why be faithful to them." And we might be inclined as BS to say we would NEVER do that. But it happens. And I have read their great remorse over it and know that some are still with their spouses trying to make it work.....So how can we ever anticipate every possible scenario we might encounter?

I have tried to stay off the cheaters anonymous group for several reasons. First to avoid triggers. Second each cheater is different and has a different story - and their situation does not necessarily match that of the cheater in my life. And I DO believe that some people can make a mistake and learn from it.

But all of that said....we just don't know. We don't know what our spouse will do. We sometimes don't even know what we will do until faced with the situation.

I'm coming up on 3 years and this is the best I've felt. It's a tough road for sure, but I have no regrets. If I could go back, I'd do the same thing--maybe make a few tweeks, but ultimately I'd decide to forgive and rebuild again.

It is hard for both and a lot of responsiblity falls on the CS. Fortunately for me, my CS was and is on-board with putting in the work it takes to be successful.

It takes both of you---and you both have to really want it and be willing to deal with the BS.

It can be a learning/life changing experience for the ones that truly get the devistation that it evokes. It's surely not a task that can be taken lightly or half assed---by neither of you.

I have stayed, thus far, in the relationship with my h after betrayal. It has been over 3 1/2 years since Dday. And here's my spin on it. My H has stopped his behavior...good for him. I have tried to make a marriage in the aftermath...good for me.

I don't think the betrayed spouse "ever" gets "past" the hurt. I think one lives with it always as long as they are in a relationship with the cheater. They either learn to live with the triggers for pain and unhappiness, or they get tired of living with it and leave. Nothing that is done...can be undone. And, believing all can be wine and roses after betrayal is just not possible.

[unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.

@beach,

I get what you are saying. I know I can't anticipate every possible outcome. However, it simply seems a lot of couples start off good rebuilding, but within the first two years crash and burn. Sometimes it is obvious why (the OP comes back into the picture, or the CS is addicted and goes back to satisfy that addiction, etc.) , while other times it seems it just happens with no real reason given. So I was simply attempting to identify some common threads.

I guess the fear is whether I'm doing all I can. Like a chess game, you have to think a few steps ahead and anticipate the possible moves the other person might make. Of course, this is much more complicated than a chess game, and even in chess you don't always see all the options and get surprised. That said, I don't think it hurts things to evaluate what is ahead and are we doing what we can to avoid those issues. Certainly doesn't mean I'm not also focusing on what's happening now. One doesn't preclude the other unless I were obsessed with what's ahead. I'm just evaluating where we are, what's possible to come up, and whether what we are doing now will give us the best chance of surviving.

@blindsided,

I understand what you are saying about core changes. I do, however, believe that behavior changes do include transparency, honesty, and such if they weren't there before, just as much as keeping the house clean.

Ironically, one of the core changes she's made is a direct result of the A. As I've stated before, we had sex average once or twice a month. I had decided that was all it would ever be, and had become content with that. I didn't expect that to change. When the first man flipped her switch and she changed drastically, she started wanting it every night, and was willing to do things that before she refused to do. Which for me was my ideal. I thought I was in heaven, figuratively speaking of course. Now that it is over and her libido is no longer being stoked by the fires of her secret relationships, she has realized how important this aspect of intimacy is to me, and now to her, and she continues to do that regularly. Now, maybe at some point that dies down. I don't know. But at current, that's a change she's made, sort of out of the fires of the A for sure, but a change nonetheless that had never existed in our marriage for 28 years prior to that.

And on my front, I realized I hadn't been showing her my love for her so she could feel it because I didn't spend that much time with her, didn't communicate a lot except in certain circumstances. I was very practical in my communication as well. If she wanted to come in and talk about what one of her clients was doing she thought funny or interesting, I couldn't have cared less. What did it matter to me? I was busy doing "important" stuff that I did care about. And my disinterest in her day and such was felt by her, and made her feel unloved and unimportant to me.

I've changed on that front. I now spend a good amount of time with her. I chat with her no matter the topic. I may not always have something to say, but I pay attention. Even if the topic isn't that interesting to me, she is.

Those are just two examples on either side. I could offer more, but I'll not bore everyone. Will we both keep up with our changes? We both want to, but I know it can be easy to let it slip once things settle down, and the threat of drifting apart becomes real again.

But that's why they call marriages work. You have to pay attention to it, water it, give it tender loving care, if you want it to grow. What we both realized is while we thought we had a good, solid marriage and were best of friends, leaves had been dried up and wilting for a while. Flowers drooped and petals had fallen off. The A became a catalyst for paying attention to where our marriage had grown weak before the A ever happened, but we had become blind to it, so holed up in our own little worlds.

I wish it hadn't taken an A to wake us up to these things and make changes. But I guess sometimes that's what it takes to force you to realize what is important in your life, and make changes accordingly.

But I understand when you are talking about core personality traits. I don't know of any of those that I now, suddenly, can't put up with. I love her as she is personality wise. I don't think I would want that to change much. And I'm glad to have her back, in damaged condition for sure, but she's not that other woman I lived with for the previous eight months during the A that was a stranger to me.

But certainly, if something like that becomes important after the A that wasn't before, and it dealt with a core personality trait which is hard to change, it isn't highly likely the CS will change. Not many would. Personality traits are fairly well ingrained and change very slowly. And personally, I married the person I married, I don't expect them to make such major changes. That's the problem some marriages have, one or the other spouse feels, "I don't like that he does X, but I can get him to change after we're married." Uh...no you won't. If it is a deal breaker, don't marry him.

Of course if suddenly you can't deal with it after an A, that is a problem. But unless it is something that threatens the stability of the marriage by further infidelity, I'm not sure why that would change. If it did, it did. But I would guess what has really happened is you all along didn't like it, grumbled under your breath, maybe even said something about it here and there, but didn't make an issue of it and decided you'd put up with it. Much like I decided her not wanting sex as often as I did had become and accepted thing, though not what I wanted. Now, if she cut back to that, it would be hard for a while. My expectations have changed in that department. And if she did scale it back at some point for whatever reason, I could see that making me more susceptible to the temptation for infidelity myself. My first reaction is I've been through all this before and didn't cheat. I can do it again. But I really can't assume that, so I have to be on my guard as well. Keep my boundaries firm.

But while I get what you are saying, I do feel us being transparent is a core change. I hid a few things from her, nothing big but hidden nonetheless, and she hid some things from me. Now we realize the need to be totally transparent, and even that requires some "personality" changes, at least on my part. But sometime it takes a crisis like an A to shake us up enough to make those changes.

My thoughts as confused and jumbled as they are...
The CS has the weight of the relationship on their shoulders, but if the BS doesn't communicate their insecurities, how can both partners get past the pain. I say this because there are things I want to ask or share with my CS, but I am afraid to. (Afraid that I will come across accusing, or I don't want to hurt him more than he is already hurting, or what if the answer hurts me, or do I just need to let it go.) I have noticed, for me anyway, that some questions just will not go away and some I forget. I have to overcome my fear and ask the nagging questions and hopefully CS will answer truthfully.

I also think that as a BS, we end up in a holding pattern. We have to wait and see if the CS takes actions on what has been shared. CS hasn't gotten me any heart felt gifts since the A began. There has been flowers or trinkets that show he's thinking of me but nothing that shouts "I Love You and I want you show you with..." CS shared how he flirted with OW, he hasn't flirted with me in 8 yrs. So, the hold pattern continues and the hurt deepens while I wait to see if any affirmation comes that he loves me as deeply as he did before the A.

This isn't our first time down this road. It was almost 3 yrs. between each discovery. Our first trip, we crashed and burned and then continued with blinders on. We drank the pain away and didn't seek any outside help. I inflicted physical pain on myself to mask the emotional cancer. And in self preservation, we both just went on like nothing happened. I had my false sense of securty that he wouldn't hurt me like that again because he had seen my pain. So like any untreated disease, relapse slugged me in the chest. We are learning from our mistakes. We are seeking outside counsel, alcohol has been banned, and besides a new piercing, no self destruct button has been pushed.

Sorry about the ranting, but I think that there are many reasons why some couples have crisis months after DDay. I applaud you for trying to find some answers...although you cannot prepare for every scenario...the more knowledge you have the more you can pull from when something falls out of the sky.

Cole...In our case we both committed to fixing our marriage and improving ourselves. It's not been easy because we have had to accept our shortcomings and failures, learn how to communicate with each other and put away our fears.

Bottom line is we were so afraid to upset the other that we wouldn't discuss an issue until it built which started a fight and tore apart the rebuild...today we recognize when we need to talk or start slipping, not saying we don't fall just that we don't fall as far.

Call me a dreamer or stupid, but for my own health I had to let all the bad stuff go, images, worries, negative thoughts, etc. Do I trust my W and believe it won"t happen again? YES! Becasue she has shown remorse and improvement in herself. Of course the random thought floats through my head, buut when it does I compare it to the facts of today and I am able to let it it go.

IMO it comes down to the CS being willing to acknowledge the damage done and the BS willing to forgive...from there it comes down to both sides willingness to accept that there relationship will be forever changed and they will need to change as well to make it work.

Well so many folks have pointed out so many valid points, for sure.

I like what rj said, and blind, along with so many others.

I do think most marriages which tend to be long term involve the forgiveness factor. But, I , like many other folks here, swear we won't tolerate a 2nd time. But then we all thoughts we wouldn't tolerate and accept cheating the first time.

So yeah, we truly don'tknow how we'll respond until tragedy hits.
But I think communication is a must (honest communication, but also not fearful of bringing up touchy subjects). If a spouse needs answers, they should be graced with those answers.

Also I see a lot of folks who build an underlying resentment. They mayhave had it prior to the affair, and if that is the case, it seems to multiply like tenfold afterward. And if that resentment, cycles, and continues to bounce off each other, huge problems will explode in my opinion.

From my understanding, I think your wife mayhave resented you for not being an "involved, communicative, attentive" husband, as you described. And that, in and of itself, is a recipe for disaster.

You, on the other hand, mayhave felt resentment towards her for the infrequent sex, as well, which may have played out as your not being interested in her holiday activities ( fireworks, Halloween, etc. which she valued and really wanted you to share with her).

And now,I'm concerned that if you try to dote on her too much, you may also get resentful, that you don't have the time you used to have for your writing projects, meetings, etc. So, all I can say is, try to be very honest, own up to your resentments, and see if she's willing toshare hers, and then you guys might want to create a game plan for diminishing those resentments. And if you can have the "resentment talk" without blame, shame, and guilt, you'll probably be more successful, in opening up and really communicating your resentments, your needs, and be able to make compromises with your time spent of which activities, as well as prioritizing things, maybe a bit differently.

Also, onc ethe love is lost, it is very hard to restore. You can pretend all you want, but if it's insincere, it will probably come off as such!

The only other thing I'm noticing is that you seem to be attempting to intellectualize this whole thing, which I get. I too, analyze, and over-analyze, and think, and write, and get a bit obsessive at times. Of course, some analysis is good for problem solving, but then there's also the synthesis part. You need to also analyze the parts which contributed this, as well as attempt to put it back together. And its almost an oxymoron, trying to analyze matters of the heart, which are so emotional in nature. I knwo this is also a coping mechanism, trying to avoid another bombshell.

But, yeah, each case of course is so unique. There is really no manual of sorts, or formulas, but for sure there are ways to address it, and try again to rebuild. But as many have said, we can't force love. I found this on this site, my apologies, don't know where it originated, but it resonated with me.

No one falls in love by choice,
It is by CHANCE.
No one stays in love
by chance,
It is by WORK.
And no one falls out of love by
chance,
It is by CHOICE!

So gnaw on those bones a while, and let me know what you think!

Hi blondegal,

Well, I'll try to gnaw a bit here:



That is very possible. She says she didn't really recognize this need in herself. If someone would have asked her, "Do you have a good marriage," she would have said "most definitely" right off the bat. And I would have said the same.

That said, I know she wasn't happy with the level of communication we had. I know she wasn't happy with how little time we spent together. But it never dawned on me (duh) that it could be a warning sign I'd better get busy and water my own garden!

Likewise:



Most certainly I was in the first ten years of our marriage. By the time the A had hit, I had resigned myself to the fact it would never change, this was the way it was, and I had become content with that. At least to a large degree. But if you had asked me "How often do you wish you had sex with your wife?" I would have said something along the lines of "Nearly every day, or at least at any good possible opportunity." That was my ideal. Now she's meeting that, amazingly enough. I never in a million years thought she would do that. I didn't expect it. And for all I know, it may die down to a lower level at some point. But I had decided I loved her, and while sex was important to me, it wasn't the end all and be all of our relationship.

But you are right, it could be the lack of sex on her part fostered a distance I felt in me, which in turn caused me to find more interest in other things than spending time with her. But, hard to psychoanalyze yourself. ;)



While certainly spending more time with her reduces the time I'm spending on writing, I don't think that's the reason I've not done any writing. Because I have had some time to write, especially now that I'm unemployed. But there is a mental block I'm waiting to go away. Or figure out why it is there. But best I can tell there is some fear of getting sucked back into my writing world and start ignoring her again. I've not yet figured out how to find a balance there. When I get to writing, the rest of the world goes by before I know it. That's why I just realized it is almost three in the morning, and I'm still up writing on this forum! lol.

Oh, I'm sure I'm intellectualizing. That's how I process things. Whether it is "over" or not, it certainly doesn't feel like it. I'm sure to someone not used to that level of thought process it can seem like it. It certainly wouldn't be the first time I've been accused of it. But that's how I'm built. I don't feel I'm obsessing over it. More just curious why it seems these things happen.

And you know what, I think I've figured it out. :)

There are four levels of what happens to marriages after an A is discovered (this will be somewhat simplistic).

1. The CS is uncooperative, not transparent, the BS doesn't heal, and the marriage goes into the garbage pit and breaks up. I think these happen within a couple of months or less, unless the BS is the type that needs to grow a backbone and/or position themselves before he/she can leave the marriage. Some of those last for quite a while.

2. The CS is cooperative and give the appearance of honesty and transparency to one degree or another, but underneath is still cheating and hiding things from the BS. Depending on how long he/she can keep up the deception without being discovered, again, will indicate how a rebuild on the surface that looks good, eventually implodes. Which generally happens, because whereas before the CS wasn't even thinking or looking for signs of cheating from their spouse, now they are hypersensitive and can spot changes in behavior and patterns, and perk up at the first hint of cheating, instead of passing it off as nothing as they might have before.

3. The CS is cooperative, transparent, honest, and is doing all they can to heal the marriage. They have every intention of making it work. But for various reasons, down the road, they either start missing what they had, or issues in the marriage which fostered the temptation to cheat isn't dealt with adequately, or the OP starts making contact months after the fact, and the CS is drawn to them again...IOW, some aspect of the affair hasn't yet been healed in the CS, and they have a relapse. Seems the common times for this is anywhere from seven months to two years.

4. Then off course you have the CS's that are cooperative, honest, transparent, do all the right things, and though the couple experience set backs, struggles, etc., the CS stays away from the OP, and doesn't get involved with anyone else, the marriage gets strengthened in other ways, and they stay faithful to each other.

What I realized is if #2 or #3 is the case, it will tend to crop up somewhere in the window of seven months to a couple of years. There could be many reasons why they end up failing, but the couple attempt to rebuild, and on the outside it appears to be going good, but either because the CS never quit cheating or they relapsed, it falls apart a few months down the road.

And of course, the #1 tends to fall apart quick, and how long it last is however long the CS puts up with it. And #4 we don't very often hear about, but represent a certain percentage of the marriages after an A.

IOW, while there are exceptions, if there is an attempt to rebuild, it will take around seven months to two years in most cases to determine if it will work or not. While not all, it appears once you get past three years, the chances of failing get significantly smaller. Just from my unscientific observations. :)

Well, Cole:

All very interesting, your hypothesis including time frames and all....

Still think there's no set formula, because we have so many unforeseen circumstances which can and do intrude on the "life formula". For example: the death of a parent, child, or sibliing, the loss of a job, loss of a home, medical illnesses which crop up, depression playing a role, unusual flukes like being robbed or raped randomly, natural disasters like floods, tornadoes, and probably tons of other unforseen and unpredictable factors which just come up in life.
Then also, in your "time line" and hypotheses, I didn't see a whole lot of emphasis on the communication of the couple. Yes, you mentioned honesty, transparency, but there's daily communication, and individual needs each person has, as well as individual love languages we speak, we offer the other, and making and taking the time to put each other first.

Writing is not a 9-5 job, as we all know. You write when you are inspired, and that can go on endlessly, for sure, regardless of parameters, responsibilities, the clock, etc. And if you're upset, or pre-occupied with "troubles, frustrations, pain, depression, questions, obsessiveness, etc", then most likely the writing on a different topic does not flow easily (unless you are a songwriter or poet writing about those woes, then it works well).

So, just a thought: have you considered writing about the infidelity aspect, since your mind is certainly targeted now on this topic, and you've practically written a book, when you count allyour journals and posts??? lol Perhaps this might be an area to indulge in, while the iron is hot??? Just a thought...

No, no formula. Just seeing some characteristics and classifying a bit to see the big picture. I sort of think like that. If I can make sense out of the big picture, the details make more sense. I know what to do with them.

The reasons are many and varied, and everyone is unique. But I think one can spot where the bulk of people fall into it. How helpful is this? I don't know. Maybe only for my own thinking.

I think my main point there is that some seem to start of rebuilding well and then explode later simply because it takes that long for the issues not be dealt with, whether it is continued cheating by the CS, or not fully cutting off emotional ties with the OP, or {insert any other various reason} to rise to the surface. But if there is an issue not being dealt with, it seems to come out at some point during the first three years.

Naturally, some people will go longer. A CS may be able to hide their continued affair for years, and so it doesn't come to light until five or ten years down the road. But generally, it appears if a couple makes it past three years, the chances of the rebuild getting derailed drop, because in most cases if there were unresolved issues, it would come up by then. But obviously we could find exceptions to that, due to whatever unique reasons a particular situation has.

It's like in "Not Just Friends," I discovered that affairs where the wife cheats and develops a bonded relationship with the OM, that those marriages tend to fail. My wife fell in love with her OM. So far, we appear to be defying the odds on that one. But we are only 2.5 months out too. We still have a long road to go. Time will tell if we keep beating that odd. I think we have a very good chance, but I don't have a crystal ball either. I don't know what the future holds.

Which is why if I write about the affair, it would be some five to ten years after the fact, not now. Not anything I would want to publish. There needs to be time to not only show what we did worked, but after some distance has been placed between it, I'd be more comfortable sharing with my own mother and brothers about it. Currently I hold back because I don't want them judging her, in an attempt to "stick up" for me. We see them occasionally because we don't live that far apart. Once it is past history and it is evident we are doing find and "past it," I'll be able to tell them about it before a book with my name attached to it pops out.

Well, there's always "pen" names! lol

I hate to be so stupid, but if CS means Cheating Spouse - what does BS mean? (I'm not joking)...

BS = Betrayed Spouse

I know, sometimes these abbreviations can be off putting. I know why people use them, but at first it is like insider code. often I can figure out what people mean when they do that, sometimes I don't have a clue.

@blondegal,

Yeah, I thought about that. But I don't know. I think on something like that, it would be better to be open and honest, don't you think? I'm not going to hide the fact I have a book out from my mother about adultery, no matter the pen name. Then who'd be keeping secrets! lol

BS = Betrayed Spouse

(I think?)