Cole50 - You may decide to ignore my input because I knew within days that I could not reconcile, and have now been divorced for a while.

But I am friends with quite a few people who are reconciling. I read their board comments, and I read their journals.

So I just want to say that you left out a major thread on why the reconciliations stall, lose ground, or fall apart: Things the CS does, or stops doing, that causes relapses.

Its not always the fault of the BS, which your questions imply.

Cole-

Kudos for your pro-activity in rebuilding.

I have seen much more discussion on this topic in another forum.
From my understanding, this phenomenon occurs more with BS men. As I recall, the most common answer was more or less just a feeling.....like lost love. The attributable factor was that men need to re-claim what is theirs. They basically need to prove their sexual prowess (OM competition), and 'ownership' of their mate. Once they are CONVINCED completely, they lose interest in their wife.

When the devastation subsides, and the man begins to feel like a man again........some choose to bail. This is usually a several year process as you indicated.

Please don't let this discourage you. I'm sure its different for many men. Bear in mind, we hear much more from the unsuccessful situations....so the data is skewed. The happy couples fade away from the forum more often.

From my personal experience, I wanted fundamental core change after affair. Things I was ok with before affair were no longer ok afterward. Core change is incredibly difficult.

Also consider that you are MUCH more proactive that most men at this stage, which means you are off to a healthier start.

@ImDealing,

I didn't intend to indicate it was one or the other side. Those were just examples of possible answers, but certainly not inclusive.

Being the BS, it is probably more applicable what I can do to give this the best chance of working, but I know a lot of whether things go well is in the hands of the CS.

Blindside's "reclaim/reject" scenario is one possible answer. I know there are many more, some dealing with the CS, some possibly dealing with the BS's ability to move forward. Each person of course will be different, I'm only hoping to spot some common threads, warning signs, problems. Being I've never been down this road before, I'm wondering if I've done all I can, or is there more my wife should be doing to ensure we don't crash and burn in a few months.

Thanks.

Cole I've noticed this too. From what I've seen - it could be an extension of the "hysterical bonding" thing....where people, when faced with having their partner ripped from them, attach ferociously and cling to it. Then when time passes, and they reaslise they can have it they want it, they get to acknowledge what may well have been there prior to the affair - that they have grown apart. They walk away.

I often think too - that at that stage they can say they didnt split because of the affair........they made it through that part, they split for other reasons. So they win???

Just some thoughts.........

Cole, what I'm about to say may sound trite, but so be it. My H and I each made a committment to one another that, short of another A, we will not divorce and we will weather the storms of rebuilding. In our case, you were correct when you said that much of successful rebuilding is in the hands of the CS. If it weren't for my H's remorse, owning of what he did and daily committment to work on our marriage, I doubt that I would be able to forgive and move forward. Yes, I've had ups and downs and a few set backs. However, I truly am a happy person today.

The fact that you are aware of all the issues that you will face makes you ahead of the game, so to speak. As long as you and your wife commit to rebuilding and staying for the long haul (assuming she doesn't resume contact with the OM), you can keep the hope that things will work out.

Speaking to the point of staying in the group and not fading away with all the other "happy couples". I stay for many reasons. I stay to give hope to the newly betrayed because I am a helper by nature. I need to make meaning from pain. If my pain and experience can help another through the same pain, then here I am. I have also formed some nice bonds with some great people here and, quite frankly, I'd miss the interaction if I left the forum. Finally, I stay here because when I do have a setback or a low period, my DS friends are always here to pick me back up again. So my point is that you should not be discouraged by the ups and downs of the process. Simply learn, grow and apply your knowledge to your own process. Do not forget that every marriage is unique, every person in the marriage is unique, every affair is unique and the time each couple takes to recover is unique. There are no right or wrongs. Ok, there are some wrongs, but you get the point! God bless!

Interesting topic for me. I am 6 mths after D day and feel like I have fallen apart ever since. I have been to a therapist numerous times, I am on an antidepressant and have started to have all sorts of medical issues. I was in good health and did not have any problems before D day and than the world came tumbling down. I know my medical problems are not my husbands fault but some how deep in I blame him for everything. Immediately after the A, I was doing everything in my power to make our relationship work and I did not see him doing the same. Eventually he started to try a little harder and I almost feel like it was just a little to late.

I needed him after the A but now I resent him for not doing what I felt that he should. I am now struggling myself because I feel like I have fallen out of love with him and I did not feel that way 3 months ago. I though we had a chance and now I just want out.

I do not know if this feeling will pass because this roller coaster ride has been crazy and one day I feel one thing and the next day something totally different but I have been struggling because I feel guilty that I could be falling out of love.

On the flip side I do not understand why I should feel guilty when he was the cheater. I do not know that I can make it over this hump but I hope there is some good feedback on this topic because I'm getting close to calling it quits.

I'm going to agree with Blind that CORE changes are main catalyst for keeping things together long term. I think in the beginning many people change on the surface as part of the repair process but then slip back into old habits.

My H and I both have made some core changes....at a year and a half out, we are still doing well. But that said...who knows what the future holds...it only takes one of us getting complacent and things could possibly crumble if the other one is not there to be the cheerleader. It is a delicate balance going forward but the possibility for long term happiness makes me willing to take the gamble. Plus, I also was able to catch a glimpse of my marriage torn apart and I just did not want that...so I am willing to fight for it.

I am not the CS but I learned a lot about my own faults during this process (and I always though before I was perfect - LOL!) and this was a wake up call to me. One of the core changes we have made regards communication and I think that is one of the most successful components for repair for us.

I understand your fears but as time marches on for me, I am learning to take things one day at a time and not worry about tomorrow. If I am busy worrying about tomorrow, then I am not fully focused on the day in front of me.

I was one of the many who experienced this and this was with my H working on making core changes fairly diligently. I actually have a slightly different view based on how I was feeling during this time.

During those first few months there is a lot of activity, emotion and adrenaline. It's kind of like getting diagnosed with a terminal disease. At first there are lots of tests, big decisions to be made and talks about options. Then you pick a treatment option and begin the process. And then things slow down.

I think when we hit that point where the shock wears off and we start to creep out of our emotional bomb shelter, we really get a moment to digest it. And we get PISSED.

The YOU DID WHAT???? turns into HOW DARE YOU DO THIS TO ME!

Another realization for me is the adrenaline rushes are gone. I would get upset and literally pick a fight during this time period just to get that volcano to blow. It was horrible. It was like I had to have the explosion.

This becomes a stumbling block for many of us. You will also start to read a lot about apathy during this stage.

There is another site called survivinginfidelity.com that has what they call "the healing library" with a lot of great resources. You might want to stop over there.

Just my experience.

As to core changes. These are easy to make for many CS in the short term. It's consistency over the long term that is harder to maintain. As life slides into the "new normal", we become sensitive to what we see as the "old spouse" habits.

again just my experience.

Cole, my reconciliation has been pretty disastrous, since I found out just weeks ago that my H was still lying to me throughout the past year of "reconciliation", but I really applaud you for showing such an active interest. Sending you and your W my best wishes in your continued efforts~

My reconciliation isn't going too well. It's been 2 years since DDay and she has this EA still going on with an ex that dumped her 25 years ago. I actually discovered this week for the umpteenth time that she still hasn't dropped it. Part of it will be because maybe I'm a little bit stubborn, and don't make enough effort to give her the attention she desires. But that is because she has never shown any remorse for what she has done to me. She's never apologised, never said it was a mistake, and still hasn't put her wedding band back on since she stopped wearing it 2 years ago. Both Spouses have got to give 100% and be in it for the long haul.

I do think I will add my reply.

My Ex's long term affair with Spammy was not his first. He had a little fling with one of the neighbors, totally wrecking our place in suburbia.

Was this his relapse? I have no idea.

Had I forgiven him for the first time around? Sure did, but never forgot it. That little incident showed my what he was capable of and that kind of info is not something you forget. So, I didn't.

Was Spammy a relapse? I don't know. After the fact, and with much sou searching, I simply decided that my EX and I did no good to eachother, that what he wanted out of his day to day life was not what I wanted. We both had different ideas of what marriage was, what honesty was, what commitment is, etc...and someone on here called this the 'huge disconnect' a term that has stuck with me.

The second affair? I didn't even consider forgiving.

You know, sometimes, people can't live with the aftermath of their own actions. Sometimes, on the other hand, people can't forgive to the extent that we believed we could. Sometimes, life just throws us too much and we have to redefine ourselves thru it.

...and that it life.

So, Cole, there may come a time when you can put this all behind you with your spouse at your side. There also may come a time that you decide you cannot move forward together. It's all a gamble, as much as love itself is a gamble. As much as marriage is a gamble. As much as walking across the street is a gamble.

Sometimes, that gamble pays off and is the sweetest deal around, right? That is your hope.

We hope that for you.

Thanks for all the replies.

It may help if I boil down my thoughts on this, and some of you can tell me how on or off I am.

As I've mentioned before, the bulk of the success of rebuilding a marriage lies with the CS. The less honest they are about what happened, the less transparent they are, the less cooperative they are in helping the BS heal through this, it becomes the biggest factor in whether the marriage survives.

And I think this is a big problem. In just reading some of the post at the cheater's anonymous forum (I'm not a member there, just read some of the post) I can tell many of them simply don't get it, give each other bad advice, and are mostly in denial. Some of the attitudes and belief systems there are exactly why rebuilding won't work, because they don't make those core changes as Blindside talked about, and radically, permanently change how they think and live, especially as it relates the other sex and their cheating partner.

And another aspect of where the CS comes into the rebuilding is not only how it starts out, as has been noted, but how they continue over the long haul. If the OW/OM come knocking at the door, how do they respond? Do they shut it down or entertain ideas of how fun it used to be? If the later, that is the poisoned pill.

Most of the crash and burns it appears has been from the CS either not being totally honest, not cutting off all contact with the OP, and/or not changing how they interact with the opposite sex (establishing proper boundaries). So they can put on a good appearance that everything in the rebuilding is going great, I love you so much, blah, blah, blah, but in reality they haven't changed, may still be secretly in contact with the OP, may even still be seeing them and having sex. But at some point the truth gets revealed, and the poor BS goes through the whole thing again.

That seems to be the biggest bulk of relapses, is due to the CS slipping back to their old ways after some good effort, or intentional deception that they've changed, but in reality they haven't.

As the BS in this one, I have limited control over how that goes with my wife. I can do all the accountability things I can, check up on her with texts, contact through the day, etc. Still she could, if she wanted to, see the OM behind my back and just be much more careful about it. But it wouldn't be too hard for her to do if she wanted to. And while there are a couple of ways I could discover even that, it would be after the fact. I can't prevent it from happening.

That said, I decided I would do all I could as the BS to give her the best chance to succeed. IOW, if this crashed and burned at some point in the future, I didn't want to look back on these days and think, "If only I'd done this, it might have prevented it." Not that such things would lessen her responsibility for failing if she did, but my main focus is that we are successful, and I want to do all I can to give that the best chance of success.

So naturally, while the bulk lies with the CS on the success, sometimes I see where it is the BS that has trouble, even when it seems the CS is doing everything right. Naturally in some of those cases, we're only getting one side of the story, but be that as it may, sometimes the crash and burn seems to come from the BS giving up at some point. So I've tried to identify for myself what might cause that to happen other than the CS relapsing. Here's my take on it so far.

1. I mentioned this to our therapist and she seemed to agree. As the BS trying to save our marriage, nearly everything gets put on the back burner initially to invest lots of time and energy in how we save this marriage. For instance, I'm a writer, and I haven't hardly written five lines of text in the past 2.5 months. Done some editing, written a couple of blog entries, but my stories are pretty much on hold at the moment, and I'm having trouble getting back to them.

So I realized I was giving of myself, doing the things that I believed would meet the CS needs, give her the best chance of healing and such. Those are all worthy goals, but at some point I could simply run out of steam. if I don't recharge, if I don't get my needs met as well and continue on with what I feel is important for me to do, I could crash and burn, and give up. Like, suddenly I don't have a life, so I claw back to the surface seeking that air and life, and let go of the marriage in the process.

2. A change on the above is I do get back to my "life" at some point, get back to my "little world," and all the connection, communication, shared love and attention dwindles with it, and we go back to slowly drifting apart. While not an excuse for the CS to cheat, it makes it more tempting for them, and being in my own world again, I may not notice the signs that it is creeping up on me again, until it is too late. Then, BOOM! We go through it all again.

3. Another issue that might play into this for the BS is what is known as post-traumatic stress syndrome. At least for me, when something traumatic happens, I go into "what are we going to do to fix this," and all my attention and energy goes into doing that. Then once the immediate danger passes, then I have a breakdown. One of the above post talks about once things clear up, then they get pissed about what the CS did to them. Except I think everyone has different reactions. I get depressed.

And unlike a car accident or the like, the "immediate danger" is prolonged. And depending on how quickly one progresses, it can be weeks, months, years, before the "we're in the clear" feeling comes. But once you feel decently "safe," the full weight of the trauma hits. You get out of survival mode and return to "normal" or "new normal" as the case may be, and then you really start dealing with the hurt and pain.

I think that happened, at least in part, to me a couple weeks ago. We have progressed at a fast pace, for sure, but there was a point where I noticed my wife returned to me, mentally. Back in October, she changed dramatically and had been in that mode up until dday. But even after dday, I could tell she was still in that "fog" and wasn't the woman I knew just a few months prior when this all started. But one day, she dropped out of that. She began to see what had happened as I did, and like me, couldn't believe she had done it. She felt pain, and cried daily, at first bitterly, and beat herself up because she 'deserved" it. But I could tell the woman I'd lived with for 28.5 years before all this started had returned.

I was glad she reached that point, and for the first time in months I felt like I had my wife back. I felt like we were on the other side of this nightmare. I knew it could fire back up, but at that point, I felt like the danger was mostly past, and I could pull out of survival mode. And I immediately went into a depression. There are work related factors to the depression as well, but I felt the weight of what had happened sink in on me.

I think some BS's, when they reach that point, whenever it is for them, get angry, or feel suddenly it is hopeless, or simply that they can't continue. And the result can be a pulling away from the spouse, which undercuts any progress made. Maybe not always to the point of destroying everything, but they can simply give up. Or as some have said, at this point they can feel apathetic. Literally give up because they can't find it within themselves to care. As one here put it, they don't feel like they love their spouse anymore.

I don't know for sure if what we are doing will avoid all these problems, but so far it seems to be the best chance for us to succeed. I guess some of these stories make me think everyone is going along fine and all the sudden the CS has a relapse, or the BS gives up and walks away for no obvious reason, I'm left wondering why that happened? What is it they didn't see coming that I'm not seeing coming down the road?

Based on most of the answers here, it sounds like there's not that much I'm not aware of. That most of them are due to problems I have or can see coming. The big question, especially for the long haul, is can we avoid them? All we can do is do what we can and know. Will we be successful? I don't know. Like one said, it is a gamble to a degree. To love is to risk being hurt. But if one is hurt too often, one pulls away. It's when joys are mixed with pains that it gets hard to discern, I think.

But as I've told my wife, to me trust in a relationship is the key. If you can't trust someone, you can't have a relationship with them. Love can't grow and prosper when you are being deceived. And if my wife were to relapse, though I love her with all my heart, and would forgive her, I would most likely have to leave her. I'm not as patient as some of you, that put up with that for months or years. My wife has done most everything right in this rebuilding, and I'm really impressed by the progress she's made in such a short time.

But she knows it could all fall apart and not very likely to be healed if she starts hiding things again, seeing him behind my back, or starts making contact with him again in an encouraging way. I'll deal with that if and when it happens. And I pray it won't. And depending on circumstances, I'm not ready to say we'd part ways 100% for sure, but it would be extremely hard for me to rebuild if it happened a second time. Extremely hard.

But right now, that's a risk I'm willing to take, to be hurt yet again. I think we've identified why it all happened as it did, within reason, and we've made some changes we want to hold onto that we believe will help us to avoid that happening again. But most of that is in my wife's hands if we succeed. So far, she's doing a great job. May it continue until we die of old age or whatever ails us.

I am 1.5 years out from Dday and reconciling. It's hard. I am not sure it's working out. All of the things you have indicated above are things that hit home for me.

My CS has not done much to make me feel that he is all that remorseful. If the OW wouldn't have dumped him, I do not know if we would still even be married.
I said I forgave, but did I really??? I still feel like there is tension.
We do not communicate at all as it always ends up in a fight and I am tired of the fight now. He keeps telling me to get over it.
He has not made love to me for over a year, so I do not feel wanted. I feel as if he is holding a torch for the OW and I will never measure up.
I am to the point where I do not feel that I am in love with my H anymore. I feel like he doesn't love me either. He said originally when I discovered the A that he loved me but wasn't in love with me. So I guess I know where I stand. He has no interest in changing that either.
I feel like I am wasting my life here in this marriage that is a sham.
I continue to try to change and be who he wants me to be, but yet it does no good. I struggle as others can see me changing, but he cannot. I get comments from people I don't want the comments from. I want them from my H.
This truly sucks as I feel like I have failed in all I have done to fix this and I cannot fix it myself. He's not trying very hard to fix it either. The newly start hugging and kissing only as part of the fixing process is as far as it has gone. People have noticed that was a new aspect to our lives as well as it was mentioned to me that he never came home and did that before and especially not in front of neighbors, but now he does, but they don't realize that that is where the intimacy ends. All of the people around think we are the perfect couple and happier than pigs in mud. Not so much. I feel alone in a marriage here. I really need to feel needed in all the ways a wife is supposed to be needed. But that does not happen, so yes, I feel like I am losing a battle and I am giving up. I don't see our marriage lasting much longer. I believe we will end up divorced within the next 2 years. Something has to change. And so far it's not. No communication, no intimacy, I feel like he just doesn't care.
I learned yesterday that the OW just moved to our state and not so far away from us. That scares the crap out of me. I wonder if she's setting up shop to have my H back. I do check up still and I have not seen contact, but as they get caught they find different ways to hide their communication. So, that is where I am. The classic 1.5 year area of what the heck is going on and the am I ready to just give up part of things. Exactly what you are talking about!
I think as long as you keep your communications open and neither of you try to shut them down, it can work. But ours is so shut down and locked up, that we are doomed. It's clear to me.

upset my situation sounds exactly like yours. I was told as well that my H loved me but not how he should a wife. So I wonder how am I suppose to believe that he does love me how he should. My H is trying but in so many ways I am not. As soon as I start to think I'm okay and that maybe we can get things back on track than I remember how he said he is attracted to the OW. He works with the OW so there is not a day that goes by that some trigger does not occur. I am just getting better at handling them.

I am in a power struggle with myself and trying to convince myself that I love my husband but I'm not really sure that I love him how I should either. I think we have grown different ways over the past 21 years and I want so much more out of life than he does. I feel guilty for feeling this way but I have to reinvent myself now.

It is not my husbands fault that I want more out of life but I have to decide if I can get more out of life with him in it or out of it. I want to go to musicals, plays, concerts, camping, and traveling. I want to volunteer at animal shelters get involved in a book club and just totally meet new people and I'm not sure that I can do all that without him with me. I want someone that wants to do these things and I do not want any one holding me back.

"As I've mentioned before, the bulk of the success of rebuilding a marriage lies with the CS. The less honest they are about what happened, the less transparent they are, the less cooperative they are in helping the BS heal through this, it becomes the biggest factor in whether the marriage survives"

Cole, these only lay bricks for reconciliation. Basically, if you don't have above.....it ain't happening. It's only foundation.

There is no recipe for re-building as human beings and relationships are infinitely complex.

Most of the things we discuss here simply allow for a more ideal path to recovery.

Let me point out a few more things....

A lot depends on the BS and their personality.
How intense was the BS's reaction to the affair? Was it shock and disappointment? Was it utter annihilation?
For me, I basically had a nervous breakdown. The reaction was VERY VERY powerful, and led to immediate disability from work and physical illness.

Connected with above, what was the extent of the affair? For me, a drunken ONS on a business trip with an immediate confession is MUCH easier to get over vs a long term affair.
Some affairs have bonuses....like affairs with family members and friends, children, pregnancies, STD's, etc. All of these are factors in the level of betrayal and shock......making recovery more difficult.

You have shown a key recovery asset in your various posts.....RESPECT. You still respect your wife. This is critical for both of you. Without respect, a good relationship is impossible.

When I spoke of CORE changes, I did not mean openness, transparency, etc. Those are basically requirements. I am referring to the CS's CORE personality. For example.....if CS was a sloppy person, and it was acceptable before affair.......often it becomes unacceptable to BS after. I know it did with me. Therefore, so much change is put upon the CS, which they are incapable of.

I don't want to put the cart before the horse. A lot of the things I am talking about are much further down the recovery road. You seem to be on an accelerated course, which I suppose is okay...but makes me a little nervous for you.