Infidelity Support Group
Any relationship in which one partner engages willfully in sexual relations with another outside of the partnership is considered to have experienced infidelity. This breach of trust is often traumatizing for the faithful partner as well as the relationship, and support is often needed to heal emotionally and to decide whether or not the relationship should continue after...
I was thinking of putting this as a journal entry, but then I thought this sounded more like a discussion for the general audience. So...
I had a sort of "revelation" of late. Recently, my W and I began reading "After the Affair." Still not sure what I think of the book as a whole, he makes some good points at times. One issue I disagree with, but that would get us off track. But one thing he said I hadn't read much about in the other two books I've read on the subject ("Not Just Friends" and "His Needs, Her Needs") is how an affair in the aftermath affects your self-worth, specifically speaking of the BS.
My first thought was, uh? I mean, I would think the guilt of the CS would cause that, they are the one's who hold the "blame" for the affair and nearly destroying the marriage, assuming it doesn't end there. Why would it affect my self-esteem as a BS since it wasn't my fault? Certainly I'm hurt, and it was a huge shock. But self-esteem? I know some of us here due to blameshifting and gaslighting feel our self-esteems attacked, but I guess in my situation that hasn't happened at all. So I didn't really get what he was saying here, as something real and not just incorrect blame.
And I've read about on here and other places where a rebuilding couple tends to fall apart sometimes a year or two out. And I posted a thread sometime ago about that topic, as some of you may recall, wondering what causes that.
Well, the thought occurred to me which made more sense out of both of those issues. I think when he was speaking about "self-esteem" and worth, what he was really talking about is dealing with 'who am I." As with any traumatic event, one's life changes significantly. Life doesn't go back to what it was before.
In my own case, I am doing things that before dday I wouldn't have considered as important. I'm spending more time with my W. Certainly a good thing, but before the A I felt my task like working on my next book or such was very important, and wasting time going to the store or lifting weights at the gym, while nice, would only take time away from what I really wanted to get done. After dday, my priorities changed drastically. I realize my W is much more important to me than getting that next book out. Yes, it will get out, maybe not as quickly, but it will get out. And that book, for all the fun of writing it, is not worth losing my wife over, or essentially telling her with my actions, "You aren't as important."
But it took the trauma of the affair to make that change happen. I would like to think I could have made the change in a less damaging way, but it is what it is. And in that regard, the change is positive. Other changes, especially for other couples, may not be so welcome. Like for me, the loss of security and innocence in the relationship. That's gone, never to be recovered. A change I lament.
But something interesting happened this week. My W said, for the first time since dday and the beginning of her affair, that she felt sorry and remorse for the security and innocence we lost because of her actions. She said she was aware of them before and sad at losing them, but this week, almost 7 months after dday, is the first time she felt within herself the sorrow over losing that in the A.
And she made a statement which clicked a light on. She was in a funk today, and we talked on the phone while she cleaned house. She was crying over this, and she said in many ways, its like so much has changed about her, she's not sure who she is anymore. Like she has to re-find herself. She looks back at what she did, and it doesn't fit who she was before the A. And it doesn't fit who she is now, and she has changed in several ways.
One thing I've learned is that any changes, no matter whether positive or negative, create a period of stress known as an identity shift/crisis. We encountered this some years ago when we made a major shift in religious affiliation. I had been a pastor of a very laid back style of worship and set that aside to start attending as just a person seeking to enter another group, starting at what felt like ground zero, a much more formal worship setting. That's a big shift, from leader to "who are you again?" And for several months, I would be standing in worship and have moments when I would look around as we worshiped and ask myself, "What the heck am I doing here?" It felt so strange, so...not me. And the whole time period was a time of redefining who I was as a person. Things I'd believed and held to most of my life to that point were thrown into question.
But sometime between one and two years of worshiping there, that feeling became less and less, until one time as the Christmas season rolled around, I found myself looking forward to the "new" Christmas hymns we would be singing. I realized it now felt like "me."
It took about one to two years for my new identity to feel like me. And I think that's what the author was getting at, what we are going through, and why around that time period people tend to have problems.
My W and I have made some major changes about how we relate to each other. Her interest themselves have changed since before the A. Before the A, for example, she loved to watch all the reality shows. American Idol, Biggest Loser, Dancing with the Starts, etc., etc. I didn't really care, couldn't stand some of them at all (the Bachelor just makes me want to gag myself with a spoon listening to the whining, "I thought he loved me!") But she watched these shows like it was a religion. One of the signs I should have picked up on early on but didn't is her interest in these shows faded. She no longer watched them. She didn't care about them when before, I didn't dare get in her way of watching one of those shows.
And since dday, she still hasn't shown any interest in those shows that she used to love. That's just one minor example. Her taste have changed. What she was interested in has changed. Even her desire for sex, as I've reported numerous times, has changed, apparently permanently, as that is now more than a year old and going strong.
So I think what happens is until a year has passed, most of us working toward rebuilding feel like things are pretty much up in the air. Everything is in flux, there's no sense of permanency. The question, "Who am I" goes through change in the aftermath of the A for both BS and CS.
But at some point around one to two years, that new identity, whatever it is, gets solidified and you start feeling like, "This is who I am." And two things can happen at that point. One, "I can work with this, or even love some aspects of it, our marriage is stronger, we are more in love with each other, etc." Or two, "I hate the new me, the new us, and I can't put up with this for the rest of my life."
Up until that happens, you're hoping things will get "fixed" and it will all end up great. But once the new identity begins to solidify as "this is it, this is what we've, what I've become," then it forces you to make a decision whether this is what you want to be. And if you don't like it, you jump ship.
I think that's why you may see some BSs after a year or two has passed, seemed to be doing well in the rebuilding, suddenly crash and burn, because they can't see themselves putting up with the "new me." When that settles into one's consciousness as "this is me now," it either scares us or reassures us.
But putting it in terms of an identity crisis makes sense out of why that happens, and why everyone says it will take at least around a couple of years to "get over" this, because that is how long it takes for whatever changes have been made, positive or negative, to feel no longer like a change, but like "who I am." No longer temporary, could change at any time, but permanent.
Does that make sense?
I had a sort of "revelation" of late. Recently, my W and I began reading "After the Affair." Still not sure what I think of the book as a whole, he makes some good points at times. One issue I disagree with, but that would get us off track. But one thing he said I hadn't read much about in the other two books I've read on the subject ("Not Just Friends" and "His Needs, Her Needs") is how an affair in the aftermath affects your self-worth, specifically speaking of the BS.
My first thought was, uh? I mean, I would think the guilt of the CS would cause that, they are the one's who hold the "blame" for the affair and nearly destroying the marriage, assuming it doesn't end there. Why would it affect my self-esteem as a BS since it wasn't my fault? Certainly I'm hurt, and it was a huge shock. But self-esteem? I know some of us here due to blameshifting and gaslighting feel our self-esteems attacked, but I guess in my situation that hasn't happened at all. So I didn't really get what he was saying here, as something real and not just incorrect blame.
And I've read about on here and other places where a rebuilding couple tends to fall apart sometimes a year or two out. And I posted a thread sometime ago about that topic, as some of you may recall, wondering what causes that.
Well, the thought occurred to me which made more sense out of both of those issues. I think when he was speaking about "self-esteem" and worth, what he was really talking about is dealing with 'who am I." As with any traumatic event, one's life changes significantly. Life doesn't go back to what it was before.
In my own case, I am doing things that before dday I wouldn't have considered as important. I'm spending more time with my W. Certainly a good thing, but before the A I felt my task like working on my next book or such was very important, and wasting time going to the store or lifting weights at the gym, while nice, would only take time away from what I really wanted to get done. After dday, my priorities changed drastically. I realize my W is much more important to me than getting that next book out. Yes, it will get out, maybe not as quickly, but it will get out. And that book, for all the fun of writing it, is not worth losing my wife over, or essentially telling her with my actions, "You aren't as important."
But it took the trauma of the affair to make that change happen. I would like to think I could have made the change in a less damaging way, but it is what it is. And in that regard, the change is positive. Other changes, especially for other couples, may not be so welcome. Like for me, the loss of security and innocence in the relationship. That's gone, never to be recovered. A change I lament.
But something interesting happened this week. My W said, for the first time since dday and the beginning of her affair, that she felt sorry and remorse for the security and innocence we lost because of her actions. She said she was aware of them before and sad at losing them, but this week, almost 7 months after dday, is the first time she felt within herself the sorrow over losing that in the A.
And she made a statement which clicked a light on. She was in a funk today, and we talked on the phone while she cleaned house. She was crying over this, and she said in many ways, its like so much has changed about her, she's not sure who she is anymore. Like she has to re-find herself. She looks back at what she did, and it doesn't fit who she was before the A. And it doesn't fit who she is now, and she has changed in several ways.
One thing I've learned is that any changes, no matter whether positive or negative, create a period of stress known as an identity shift/crisis. We encountered this some years ago when we made a major shift in religious affiliation. I had been a pastor of a very laid back style of worship and set that aside to start attending as just a person seeking to enter another group, starting at what felt like ground zero, a much more formal worship setting. That's a big shift, from leader to "who are you again?" And for several months, I would be standing in worship and have moments when I would look around as we worshiped and ask myself, "What the heck am I doing here?" It felt so strange, so...not me. And the whole time period was a time of redefining who I was as a person. Things I'd believed and held to most of my life to that point were thrown into question.
But sometime between one and two years of worshiping there, that feeling became less and less, until one time as the Christmas season rolled around, I found myself looking forward to the "new" Christmas hymns we would be singing. I realized it now felt like "me."
It took about one to two years for my new identity to feel like me. And I think that's what the author was getting at, what we are going through, and why around that time period people tend to have problems.
My W and I have made some major changes about how we relate to each other. Her interest themselves have changed since before the A. Before the A, for example, she loved to watch all the reality shows. American Idol, Biggest Loser, Dancing with the Starts, etc., etc. I didn't really care, couldn't stand some of them at all (the Bachelor just makes me want to gag myself with a spoon listening to the whining, "I thought he loved me!") But she watched these shows like it was a religion. One of the signs I should have picked up on early on but didn't is her interest in these shows faded. She no longer watched them. She didn't care about them when before, I didn't dare get in her way of watching one of those shows.
And since dday, she still hasn't shown any interest in those shows that she used to love. That's just one minor example. Her taste have changed. What she was interested in has changed. Even her desire for sex, as I've reported numerous times, has changed, apparently permanently, as that is now more than a year old and going strong.
So I think what happens is until a year has passed, most of us working toward rebuilding feel like things are pretty much up in the air. Everything is in flux, there's no sense of permanency. The question, "Who am I" goes through change in the aftermath of the A for both BS and CS.
But at some point around one to two years, that new identity, whatever it is, gets solidified and you start feeling like, "This is who I am." And two things can happen at that point. One, "I can work with this, or even love some aspects of it, our marriage is stronger, we are more in love with each other, etc." Or two, "I hate the new me, the new us, and I can't put up with this for the rest of my life."
Up until that happens, you're hoping things will get "fixed" and it will all end up great. But once the new identity begins to solidify as "this is it, this is what we've, what I've become," then it forces you to make a decision whether this is what you want to be. And if you don't like it, you jump ship.
I think that's why you may see some BSs after a year or two has passed, seemed to be doing well in the rebuilding, suddenly crash and burn, because they can't see themselves putting up with the "new me." When that settles into one's consciousness as "this is me now," it either scares us or reassures us.
But putting it in terms of an identity crisis makes sense out of why that happens, and why everyone says it will take at least around a couple of years to "get over" this, because that is how long it takes for whatever changes have been made, positive or negative, to feel no longer like a change, but like "who I am." No longer temporary, could change at any time, but permanent.
Does that make sense?
I'm sorry, but I simply did not get your point. Honestly. I'm not intentionally trying to be adversarial.
I don't believe I'm doing the internationalization thing as you describe. I'm simply trying to understand whats going on, as many of us are. The better I can understand it, the better I can "control" it, or at least know why something is happening. End of story.
The self-esteem thing wasn't even my main point. It was the discovery of the identity shift being what we are both going through. But I sincerely don't see, for me, how being hurt affects my self-esteem. That it does for you and others is obvious. I just don't see the connection for me. Or why it has to do that to me, if it isn't. Which is what I hear you saying, is that my self-esteem has taken a hit, I just don't know it. Or I'm in denial or something.
But I don't see it or experience it that way. Nuff said, I think. Unless someone can help me see the missing link here.
But my only purpose was to share and discuss an answer to a question I'd been having and presented to some extent here before. Make of it what you will.
Why did he cry?
His esteem was completely in tact.
Don't tell me something like the love that was lost, or the like (betrayal etc).
Pure and simple...it was crushed ego, and brusied esteem that led a grown man cry.
However, Cole (and apparantly you) have an EXTREMELY hard time calling things what they are.
He likes to put a twist on things to sound interesting, open minded, creative. Basically, he wants to put his signature on everything he tries to define or explain.
Apparently his style has rubbed off on you a bit.
JUST SAY WHAT IT IS!!!!!!!
Are you effing kidding me?
Maybe blind was right on with the caveman analogy.
And just so you know, my H says he chooses me too. I just don't want what he's offering.
Deciding to change your religion is hardly the same as getting over a deep betrayal. Don't see that comparison... People say one to two years... People who are still on these sites. But like I think blind mentioned, that's basing it on people still on this site! Skewed sample. No evidence. Guess I had no idea what you're trying to say here.
Yes, and being 'JEALOUS" that he is not the preacher......enough so that it took 2 years to adjust to it!!!!!!!!
Can I jump back in here?
I think we are seeing, with this thread, that for some, myself included, there is some deep emotional response. I tend to lean toward Blind with this one - my EX's cheating did one hell of a job on my self esteem.
As far as Cole goes, I can only marvel at how he handled it. Hands down, for me, I am glad that he could, BUT his response is not one that we see much here. Still, I do marvel at it, admire it. Good for him!
I really don't want to debate which is right or wrong. Maybe there really isn't a right or wrong in all of this.
Blind, I hear you, loud and clear. The blows, and the scars, to my self esteem are still something that I deal with - even tho I know it makes no sense whatsoever, bottom line, to me, is this - My Man (my EX now) wanted another woman (our little, legendary Spammy.) and that fact hurt my sense of womanhood all over the place.
If it didn't hit you like that, Cole, I am happy for you. But it did hit some like that. Me included.
While my head was saying, 'this was his choice and his actions and my reaction to this SHOULD not be like this,' my gut was saying 'my Man wanted someone else.'
Maybe I wouldn't feel like that if my boobs were bigger.
Oh well...and now, I am out...
I have so much respect for you both, Blind and Cole, L~
No controversy.
I am simply calling your H out on his bullshit, that's all.
I am NOT saying he is not a great guy etc.
I am simply pointing out his bullshit here.
He is trying to re-label his feelings to appear logical, stable.
He WON'T admit that his ego was bruised etc.
If you read his posts and journals, you will see a theme of him labeling the first OM as "EVIL" for "Lighting your fire". In fact, when finally said that OM was EVIL (can't imagine where you got that from), COLE HUGGED YOU!
So GABBY, WHAT THE FUCK SHALL WE CALL THAT!!!!!
C'mon, think of a good one.......but don't mention JEALOUSY or EGO.
Yes hon, and quite remarkable that he felt this way 1.5 weeks after DAY from 2 physical affairs and multiple online affairs.
who felt that way? Cole? Then what's the problem here?
You know, Blind, maybe he felt that way initially. Right off the bat. Maybe. And then? He got himself under control, Reasoned his way back. Didn't let it get under his skin or take hold.
maybe?
...and maybe...it just all hit us differently than it hit him. That's all I'm saying. Lord know, I hear you on this one. It hit me the same as it hit you.
L~
We know better. That is why we have the rollercoaster of emotion, that is why we all struggle with betrayal and anger, because it all defies logic and is all emotion.
personally, while Cole says he has it all separated, and never let it affect him like this, I find those comments made early in the discovery process speak otherwise.
And that's alright.
Nothing wrong with that...L~
on goes the game of semantics!
On goes the game of differences of opinion.
And I still say, that in most cases (;-) i will agree to disagree with dignity. It sure is easy when it comes to politics for me, a little less easy when it comes to religion, and a whole lot less easy or just old plain dang hard, real hard, when it comes about disagreeing with me about who I am, what my motives are, and a completely opposing pov (when it tends to be brutal).
I have a sister like this, who can't seem to disagree with dignity. First she'll say, "I don't want to talk about it", if that doesn't work, she'll say, "I have to hang up now", and if that doesn't work she uses words with dagger sharp intent, and try her best to stab me.
I remind her, that she's entitled to think what she wants, she may even express what she thinks, but when it starts to get extremely nasty, where I consider it abuse, I remind her, "I refuse to participate in this dysfunctional relationship". I tend to step back for a month or so, she gets the hint, then misses me, and we go all around again, and again.
Many people will stand up for what they believe in...fine...this is still a free country. But to me, it depends on how that is stated, and once communication deteriorates, and someone is screaming at me, with dagger tongues, I particularly am not interested in what they say, or anything for that matter.
Now, I was eluding, earlier Cole, to different personality types, to which a whole lot of pschological literature has been dedicated. Depending on the author, era, and so on, many different views, and types. I do think many of us are naturally hard-wired to be close to two of those types. Then life happens, and what we may naturally be (nature) versus what has occurred in our lives (nurture,how we have been raised, and as we get older other things life changing events bombarding us),...
We all have the choice to try on different hats, different personality styles, different ways of coping, different ways of avoiding, different ways of attempting to gain control, etc.
And I do think, for the most part, for me, anyways, that the above-mentioned will always be in flux. It may have to do with being quite analytical, quite action oriented, from where I derive my self-esteem, and certainly has a lot to do with my present philosophies, experiences which seemed successful, and a whole whole lot to do with my values. Even our values may fluctuate from time to time.
ie I didn't use to be so analytical, as a matter of fact, in HS, I was quite the airhead, a role I assumed unknowingly to obtain what I thought/felt I needed (attention from males). I had no father, we moved around quite a bit 13 times when we arrived here in the states (immigrated from Germany). I learned to bond with girls because subliminally I knew I probably wasn't going to remain in that apartment or school very long. In HS, I blossomed, and was cute and the male world opened up to me.
In college, I decided that cute was nice, fun, but that my real value at the time was intelligence. I got my degree, in teaching, and I wanted to give back to kids, probably being very influenced by some wonderful teachers and coaches who provided me with love and attention, when my Mom was incapable (due to working 3 jobs, and having post traumatic stress, so she wasn't even capable of loving and nurturing herself, quite to busy with survival and economic hardships raising 4 daughters by herself in a new country, with different cultural ways, etac).
So thereby, the environment and experiences do impact us. Maybe not everyone to the same degree. Add dysfunctional relationships, parental values, friend values, self esteem based on others (which is what I did as a child, quite a bit, since Mom was lacking in ways, plus physically not there much, plus she was extremely abusive both physically and verbally). So if I were to pick a word which described my self esteem from mom, it would be "you are shit, I shit you out, I hope you die, and the worms eat your eyes out". NO lie, heard this from the time I was four. So basically a non-existent self esteem, or just plain ol crappy crappy low.
As I got older, I discovered I had some athletic abilities, and got some self esteem from that. Like i mentioned, got plenty attn. from the boys, bonded with a few girls one of whom is still my best friend from age 11, and then I gathered a little more from achieving some goals and accomplishments which were high on my value system (intelligence to graduate, persistence to finish college, independence in gaining a job and providing for myself, counting on myself as my MOm modelled for us).
It wasn't until after I got married at 20, that I realized how serious I was, and wanted to inculcate some other values which are far less tangible: happiness, love, sense of humour, and more balance in my life. In my thirties, I wanted a little more peace and serenity. In my forties, I wanted to really know who I am, what I am, decide who I want to be (after getting divorced, because he was a pedophile). My image or identity really got messed up from being Mrs. ___ for many years (and I truly loved his family), to a single chick, who was still Mom, and had a job to do, raise my niece (daughter), and get on my big girl pants, and start lifting myself up, an inch at a time, and then slowly proceed to put one foot in front of the other, and learn, to walk,march, run.
So, back to my point, my values which i held close and dear to me changed, as I matured, and some of my experiences most likely did shape that. How could it not? There were intricately and intrinsically as well as extrinsically intertwined. So, it does seem to change a bit for me anyways:
my identity, my self esteem, my values, my actions, my interpretation of what success means, my humble abodes, my friends, my everything.
And now, in my mid-fifties, it' seems to be winding down a bit. I'm not done growing, changing, and evolving quite yet. As much as I view myself as a teacher (done that 35 years officiallly), I also pride myself in definitely being a "student". I don't ever want to stop learning. I don't want to stagnate. I want to listen, hear, think, debate, feel, learn, grow, for those are my choices, which I am allowed.
I also hold very high on my value list:
peace and serenity: I had enough drama for my whole life, I used to go to every party/event I was invited. Now I am quite the homebody, and I'm comfy with that.
I still talk way too much, type way too much, and some guys have hated my analytical nature.
So regarding the values: I have a definite mix of the stuff stated. I do feel great with action-oriented goals (often assoc. w/ men) but I also feel great with reaching social emotional goals. I do think and feel that family is everything, and love is so dang important, and that the glass is half-full, and that persistence pays offf, as well as I can and will affect others (hopefully in a good way), and teach them, and learn from them, and make a little mark on their soul.
Sorry, got a little mushy.
But trying to explain the self-esteem thing, and the self-identity thing, and for me, they are interwoven........the more you know your values, I think, the tigher they are woven. When you are younger, maybe not so much, as we are all still figuring out who we are, what we are, and my philosphy still stands: when younger,our self-esteem stems a whole lot from others (family, friends, teachers, etc), and when we are older, hopefully it turns more into intrinsically what we think and feel of ourselves.
The few people that I know of, who seemed to stagnate a bit, and have some issues with maturity, are the ones who seem to get a whole lot of self-esteem still from others externally, and they don't seem as happy. See the problem when you look for self-esteem externally, you think you have to be like them in order to be approved, you tend to be more influenced by others too, and others can change, friendships can change, and I think you can't count on others to keep stroking you, cuz they may not have the time, desire, or ability. A little is nice to hear, but for me, it is not necessary, and my self-esteem cannot be and will not be dependent on what others feel/think too an extreme percentage. Too fleeting, too unreliable, and too dependent, in my book.
Gosh, now I probably sound like an old fogey! lol
But does this make sense to anyone, in the least?
Aha, just caught myself wanting a little approval, or acceptance from an external source! I could have deleted this, but it's good, cuz I am still interested in some approval, appreciation, etc (lower on my value list, but yeah, they're on there). Like I said folks, a work in progress, a work in progress and probably will be til I take my last breath, just cuz.....that's what I want and choose!
I was unaware of some of the things that have shaped you as a person. While I have always had respect for your opinions, it has increased after reading your post. Your thoughts come a person that has persevered and endured through many life tragedies.
Thanks for adding perspective and sharing some of your personal experience.
I hope to grow old, being cute, and even die being cute!
Sometimes, I am super lengthy sorry for that.
But sometimes thoughts start flowing, and it gets a tad bit "obsessive" shall i say?
But the point is to enlighten others, as it has enlightened me. I am a beast of analysis, and sythesis, I am finding out.
Gabi & Cole
I work with students of Autism and Asperger's Syndrome. My Aspie kids have very high intelligence, some border the genius in intellect, and academics. But part and parcel of the beast is that at times, many have language, communication deficiencies ( in terms of reading facial expression, recognizing tone of voice may indicate different things, and have the center of the brain which deals with feeling and emotions affected, so they have difficult time with "theory of mind" or perspective taking.
Many grow up to be very succesful financially (Bill Gates), some become inventors (Edison), some are scoffed at, ridiculed, bullied, etc. I am always for the bully, and this student population is really my niche, and gives me the most enjoyment, fulfillment, and reinforcement of all.
Some people have just shades of it, just like some people may be obsessive compulsive personality as opposed to having the full obsessive compulsive disorder.
So, if and when I find and meet folks which don't necessarily fit the norm, I actually find it refreshing. I enjoy a hearty discussion with all kinds of people, all kinds of views, etc.
So, Blind, that is why, I make the extra effort with some. Do I agree with everything? No way! Am I open to consider some view? Yes way!
Thanks Blind, Cole and Gabi:
I found this to be very enlightening, and hope a few others did, as well!