Infidelity Support Group
Any relationship in which one partner engages willfully in sexual relations with another outside of the partnership is considered to have experienced infidelity. This breach of trust is often traumatizing for the faithful partner as well as the relationship, and support is often needed to heal emotionally and to decide whether or not the relationship should continue after...
Cole50
I was thinking of putting this as a journal entry, but then I thought this sounded more like a discussion for the general audience. So...
I had a sort of "revelation" of late. Recently, my W and I began reading "After the Affair." Still not sure what I think of the book as a whole, he makes some good points at times. One issue I disagree with, but that would get us off track. But one thing he said I hadn't read much about in the other two books I've read on the subject ("Not Just Friends" and "His Needs, Her Needs") is how an affair in the aftermath affects your self-worth, specifically speaking of the BS.
My first thought was, uh? I mean, I would think the guilt of the CS would cause that, they are the one's who hold the "blame" for the affair and nearly destroying the marriage, assuming it doesn't end there. Why would it affect my self-esteem as a BS since it wasn't my fault? Certainly I'm hurt, and it was a huge shock. But self-esteem? I know some of us here due to blameshifting and gaslighting feel our self-esteems attacked, but I guess in my situation that hasn't happened at all. So I didn't really get what he was saying here, as something real and not just incorrect blame.
And I've read about on here and other places where a rebuilding couple tends to fall apart sometimes a year or two out. And I posted a thread sometime ago about that topic, as some of you may recall, wondering what causes that.
Well, the thought occurred to me which made more sense out of both of those issues. I think when he was speaking about "self-esteem" and worth, what he was really talking about is dealing with 'who am I." As with any traumatic event, one's life changes significantly. Life doesn't go back to what it was before.
In my own case, I am doing things that before dday I wouldn't have considered as important. I'm spending more time with my W. Certainly a good thing, but before the A I felt my task like working on my next book or such was very important, and wasting time going to the store or lifting weights at the gym, while nice, would only take time away from what I really wanted to get done. After dday, my priorities changed drastically. I realize my W is much more important to me than getting that next book out. Yes, it will get out, maybe not as quickly, but it will get out. And that book, for all the fun of writing it, is not worth losing my wife over, or essentially telling her with my actions, "You aren't as important."
But it took the trauma of the affair to make that change happen. I would like to think I could have made the change in a less damaging way, but it is what it is. And in that regard, the change is positive. Other changes, especially for other couples, may not be so welcome. Like for me, the loss of security and innocence in the relationship. That's gone, never to be recovered. A change I lament.
But something interesting happened this week. My W said, for the first time since dday and the beginning of her affair, that she felt sorry and remorse for the security and innocence we lost because of her actions. She said she was aware of them before and sad at losing them, but this week, almost 7 months after dday, is the first time she felt within herself the sorrow over losing that in the A.
And she made a statement which clicked a light on. She was in a funk today, and we talked on the phone while she cleaned house. She was crying over this, and she said in many ways, its like so much has changed about her, she's not sure who she is anymore. Like she has to re-find herself. She looks back at what she did, and it doesn't fit who she was before the A. And it doesn't fit who she is now, and she has changed in several ways.
One thing I've learned is that any changes, no matter whether positive or negative, create a period of stress known as an identity shift/crisis. We encountered this some years ago when we made a major shift in religious affiliation. I had been a pastor of a very laid back style of worship and set that aside to start attending as just a person seeking to enter another group, starting at what felt like ground zero, a much more formal worship setting. That's a big shift, from leader to "who are you again?" And for several months, I would be standing in worship and have moments when I would look around as we worshiped and ask myself, "What the heck am I doing here?" It felt so strange, so...not me. And the whole time period was a time of redefining who I was as a person. Things I'd believed and held to most of my life to that point were thrown into question.
But sometime between one and two years of worshiping there, that feeling became less and less, until one time as the Christmas season rolled around, I found myself looking forward to the "new" Christmas hymns we would be singing. I realized it now felt like "me."
It took about one to two years for my new identity to feel like me. And I think that's what the author was getting at, what we are going through, and why around that time period people tend to have problems.
My W and I have made some major changes about how we relate to each other. Her interest themselves have changed since before the A. Before the A, for example, she loved to watch all the reality shows. American Idol, Biggest Loser, Dancing with the Starts, etc., etc. I didn't really care, couldn't stand some of them at all (the Bachelor just makes me want to gag myself with a spoon listening to the whining, "I thought he loved me!") But she watched these shows like it was a religion. One of the signs I should have picked up on early on but didn't is her interest in these shows faded. She no longer watched them. She didn't care about them when before, I didn't dare get in her way of watching one of those shows.
And since dday, she still hasn't shown any interest in those shows that she used to love. That's just one minor example. Her taste have changed. What she was interested in has changed. Even her desire for sex, as I've reported numerous times, has changed, apparently permanently, as that is now more than a year old and going strong.
So I think what happens is until a year has passed, most of us working toward rebuilding feel like things are pretty much up in the air. Everything is in flux, there's no sense of permanency. The question, "Who am I" goes through change in the aftermath of the A for both BS and CS.
But at some point around one to two years, that new identity, whatever it is, gets solidified and you start feeling like, "This is who I am." And two things can happen at that point. One, "I can work with this, or even love some aspects of it, our marriage is stronger, we are more in love with each other, etc." Or two, "I hate the new me, the new us, and I can't put up with this for the rest of my life."
Up until that happens, you're hoping things will get "fixed" and it will all end up great. But once the new identity begins to solidify as "this is it, this is what we've, what I've become," then it forces you to make a decision whether this is what you want to be. And if you don't like it, you jump ship.
I think that's why you may see some BSs after a year or two has passed, seemed to be doing well in the rebuilding, suddenly crash and burn, because they can't see themselves putting up with the "new me." When that settles into one's consciousness as "this is me now," it either scares us or reassures us.
But putting it in terms of an identity crisis makes sense out of why that happens, and why everyone says it will take at least around a couple of years to "get over" this, because that is how long it takes for whatever changes have been made, positive or negative, to feel no longer like a change, but like "who I am." No longer temporary, could change at any time, but permanent.
Does that make sense?
I had a sort of "revelation" of late. Recently, my W and I began reading "After the Affair." Still not sure what I think of the book as a whole, he makes some good points at times. One issue I disagree with, but that would get us off track. But one thing he said I hadn't read much about in the other two books I've read on the subject ("Not Just Friends" and "His Needs, Her Needs") is how an affair in the aftermath affects your self-worth, specifically speaking of the BS.
My first thought was, uh? I mean, I would think the guilt of the CS would cause that, they are the one's who hold the "blame" for the affair and nearly destroying the marriage, assuming it doesn't end there. Why would it affect my self-esteem as a BS since it wasn't my fault? Certainly I'm hurt, and it was a huge shock. But self-esteem? I know some of us here due to blameshifting and gaslighting feel our self-esteems attacked, but I guess in my situation that hasn't happened at all. So I didn't really get what he was saying here, as something real and not just incorrect blame.
And I've read about on here and other places where a rebuilding couple tends to fall apart sometimes a year or two out. And I posted a thread sometime ago about that topic, as some of you may recall, wondering what causes that.
Well, the thought occurred to me which made more sense out of both of those issues. I think when he was speaking about "self-esteem" and worth, what he was really talking about is dealing with 'who am I." As with any traumatic event, one's life changes significantly. Life doesn't go back to what it was before.
In my own case, I am doing things that before dday I wouldn't have considered as important. I'm spending more time with my W. Certainly a good thing, but before the A I felt my task like working on my next book or such was very important, and wasting time going to the store or lifting weights at the gym, while nice, would only take time away from what I really wanted to get done. After dday, my priorities changed drastically. I realize my W is much more important to me than getting that next book out. Yes, it will get out, maybe not as quickly, but it will get out. And that book, for all the fun of writing it, is not worth losing my wife over, or essentially telling her with my actions, "You aren't as important."
But it took the trauma of the affair to make that change happen. I would like to think I could have made the change in a less damaging way, but it is what it is. And in that regard, the change is positive. Other changes, especially for other couples, may not be so welcome. Like for me, the loss of security and innocence in the relationship. That's gone, never to be recovered. A change I lament.
But something interesting happened this week. My W said, for the first time since dday and the beginning of her affair, that she felt sorry and remorse for the security and innocence we lost because of her actions. She said she was aware of them before and sad at losing them, but this week, almost 7 months after dday, is the first time she felt within herself the sorrow over losing that in the A.
And she made a statement which clicked a light on. She was in a funk today, and we talked on the phone while she cleaned house. She was crying over this, and she said in many ways, its like so much has changed about her, she's not sure who she is anymore. Like she has to re-find herself. She looks back at what she did, and it doesn't fit who she was before the A. And it doesn't fit who she is now, and she has changed in several ways.
One thing I've learned is that any changes, no matter whether positive or negative, create a period of stress known as an identity shift/crisis. We encountered this some years ago when we made a major shift in religious affiliation. I had been a pastor of a very laid back style of worship and set that aside to start attending as just a person seeking to enter another group, starting at what felt like ground zero, a much more formal worship setting. That's a big shift, from leader to "who are you again?" And for several months, I would be standing in worship and have moments when I would look around as we worshiped and ask myself, "What the heck am I doing here?" It felt so strange, so...not me. And the whole time period was a time of redefining who I was as a person. Things I'd believed and held to most of my life to that point were thrown into question.
But sometime between one and two years of worshiping there, that feeling became less and less, until one time as the Christmas season rolled around, I found myself looking forward to the "new" Christmas hymns we would be singing. I realized it now felt like "me."
It took about one to two years for my new identity to feel like me. And I think that's what the author was getting at, what we are going through, and why around that time period people tend to have problems.
My W and I have made some major changes about how we relate to each other. Her interest themselves have changed since before the A. Before the A, for example, she loved to watch all the reality shows. American Idol, Biggest Loser, Dancing with the Starts, etc., etc. I didn't really care, couldn't stand some of them at all (the Bachelor just makes me want to gag myself with a spoon listening to the whining, "I thought he loved me!") But she watched these shows like it was a religion. One of the signs I should have picked up on early on but didn't is her interest in these shows faded. She no longer watched them. She didn't care about them when before, I didn't dare get in her way of watching one of those shows.
And since dday, she still hasn't shown any interest in those shows that she used to love. That's just one minor example. Her taste have changed. What she was interested in has changed. Even her desire for sex, as I've reported numerous times, has changed, apparently permanently, as that is now more than a year old and going strong.
So I think what happens is until a year has passed, most of us working toward rebuilding feel like things are pretty much up in the air. Everything is in flux, there's no sense of permanency. The question, "Who am I" goes through change in the aftermath of the A for both BS and CS.
But at some point around one to two years, that new identity, whatever it is, gets solidified and you start feeling like, "This is who I am." And two things can happen at that point. One, "I can work with this, or even love some aspects of it, our marriage is stronger, we are more in love with each other, etc." Or two, "I hate the new me, the new us, and I can't put up with this for the rest of my life."
Up until that happens, you're hoping things will get "fixed" and it will all end up great. But once the new identity begins to solidify as "this is it, this is what we've, what I've become," then it forces you to make a decision whether this is what you want to be. And if you don't like it, you jump ship.
I think that's why you may see some BSs after a year or two has passed, seemed to be doing well in the rebuilding, suddenly crash and burn, because they can't see themselves putting up with the "new me." When that settles into one's consciousness as "this is me now," it either scares us or reassures us.
But putting it in terms of an identity crisis makes sense out of why that happens, and why everyone says it will take at least around a couple of years to "get over" this, because that is how long it takes for whatever changes have been made, positive or negative, to feel no longer like a change, but like "who I am." No longer temporary, could change at any time, but permanent.
Does that make sense?
Not sure I'm following you logic there. I can understand how having to give money to the ex is not fun (though I don't think I would have to die for it...software testing and bookkeeping are dangerous occupations...generally speaking), and yeah, would like it if my wife left me and married some other man. Of course, that's only one scenario for an affair.
But I still didn't do anything wrong in that. It doesn't affect who I am as far as how I view myself. Only how I view her and the ex. The rest is just her baggage from the affair.
Seems we're on two different definitions of self-esteem. I would only feel my self-esteem affected if I did something wrong, bad, hurt her. Since I didn't, her screw ups can't possibly affect my self-esteem. Not unless I somehow link her screw ups with my self-worth. Like it was because of who I am that she is faithful, because I'm such a hunk she couldn't possibly think of looking at anyone else, much less getting intimately involved. Then I could see how it would affect my self-esteem.
But I don't think that way. She made a decision 29.5 years ago to love me. She could have chose to do that with some other guy at that point. I don't buy the "your the only one for me" stuff. The fact she failed in expressing that love in a pure way, and only to me as she promised at the altar, doesn't mean I'm any less of a person unless I somehow felt I caused it. And we all know from our discussions here, I didn't cause her to have an affair. It's all her deal. So how can it be on me?
I wonder if some men feel this is a self-esteem issue because they put themselves on too high a pedestal. So any failure of the wife is seen as a personal attack on them because it is taken as them saying, "I don't view you that way"? Don't know, since I've don't think that way.
But again, I think the author of the book really meant an identity shift and crisis when he was saying self-esteem, since the examples he gave more fit that than a self-esteem issue.
But like I said, that's coming from my limited perspective. I know others have different experiences, even if I haven't shared them. Like Blonde said, there are a lot of variables that go into this. One experience isn't going to necessarily tell the whole picture or apply to everyone.
The past four years have been life changing for me. My three year old died. Then, husband started multiple affairs. Then I got divorced.
Part of me thought that getting divorced would be the end of the hurt. Getting out of the three ring circus that was my life the last four years...I thought I would recover quickly and bounce back to becoming "me" again.
But who am I now? Four years ago (I guess it's been 4.5 years now), I would have said I am an amazing mother, a hard worker, a good wife. I was kind and smart, I loved my job, I was dedicated to family, I was a balanced and centered person. I lived a life that was calm, mundane, ordinary. Now? I don't know. I'm no longer a mother to a child who is living, I am no longer a wife. My life has been tragic and not mundane in the least. I hate my job, and and am a work-a-holic now. I am lonely. I'm moody and get agitated easily. I drink too much wine at night and I stay up way too late. I don't know how to start over and rebuild myself because I am no longer interested in the same things I was, I have different friends, and a completely different life.
I will add that my self esteem unfortunately largely included not only what I thought of myself, but also what other people thought of me. I think of myself as a good person, a hard worker, genuine, sincere, kind, smart, and wonderful. That hasn't changed.
What did change was my husband, and the way he treated me sent me clear messages about how he felt and viewed me. He disrespected me, lied to me, didn't honor me. It made me feel as though I am someone who doesn't deserve respect, honor, or the truth. When my husband and I went out to dinner and he used to spend the entire evening looking into my eyes, it made me feel important. After the affairs, I didn't feel important, valuable, or beautiful.
Clearly I need to learn how to not rely on others to send me messages that I am important and worthy of honor and respect- and feel it within myself.
Who the hell cares if Cole doesn't agree?
Isn't he entitled?
Did ya read what I said to Reid?
I almost thought that Reid wrote what you wrote!
Sorry, Blind, but I'm getting the drift that somethng aint right tonite!
I know you get frustrated with some members here now and then, but don't we all?
Some days we feel like being a bit more blunt than others, probably all have our days.....but just saying....
Cole is more ethereal and in his head, almost everything goes to the brain center for analysis. Maybe some stuff bypasses the emotion center in the brain. Some people are hardwired that way.
While, other men, like y ou Blind, may have that intellectual center going very strong, as long as things are centered. But if a new unexpected problem exists, I'm guessing a lit bit of that shoots directly to your emotions center, thereby allowing for more emotional outfput, maybe less tolerance, maybe a bit more anger.
Even tho Cole and I had many long chats, and I didn't get why he really didn't get angry with his wife, and was so quick to forgive...
I also thought that he may "intellectualized" a lot of stuff, instead of feeling some of that stuff.
But, if it works for him (seems it does), and works for his wife (seems it does, yet, we don't know for sure yet, as time will definitely let us know say a year or more down the road), then it works for them.
Blind, I"m learning that my patience sometimes is noteworthy, and sometimes is virtually absent. It varies from time to time. Don't we all vary from time to time, based on our moods, circumstances, etc.??? just saying....
I don't think you understand or know of what your talking about as it relates to my W and I. I don't think it has anything to do with it. Why would me not linking my self-esteem to her failures cause her to do that? It has everything to do with her, not me.
What I said makes perfect sense to me. That it doesn't to you and we have different views on this is all that is. I think we can leave it at that. I simply don't view self-esteem the way you are doing.
Cole I can't quite imagine this not effecting your self esteem. Yes, I know this was done by my H and he was the one who chore this but... Why didn't he choose me? I'm floored that there are people who don't think that way.
Not to mention the anxious, angry, distracted person I've become.
Identity crisis? Yup. Completely. Who I am, who I've been, who I'm supposed to become... All called into question by his actions....
Will this stop at two years? Don't know Cole but really, you're 7 months out, right? We're way too far from that time to predict. And frankly, I don't know anyone IRL going through this crap. Just a handful of people on here. Way too small a sample to make any kind of generalization.
Well, we all have different experiences. Maybe its because I don't, as a rule, derive my self-esteem from how other people view me. I mean, in high school, I wasn't in the in group, I mostly stayed in the background. I didn't date anyone, I had other interest. I was a bit of an odd ball, and I didn't care. I was me and that was it, and others could either like me for who I am or go on their way. I sort of saw the "macho" guys doing things because their peers viewed them a certain way and felt sorry for them, trapped in other people's expectations of who they were and should be.
Now, a generalization I've mentioned recently, I think in the other group, is that women tend to get their self-esteem from relationships, and men from their accomplishments/job/career. I think for men that tends to translate into others respecting them for what they do or don't do.
For me, I get that to a degree. I mean, I just went through seven months of hell in my former job as a city finance officer, because the power shifted and they had it out for everyone in the previous administration. So I was accused of all sorts of stuff. They ended up suspending me in July because they believed I was embezzling. Which was totally false, and their investigation couldn't turn up anything on that. But they fired me anyway because that's what they wanted to do.
Obviously they didn't respect me. But I knew it was all politics and I wasn't to blame for what happened. I know I did a great job, especially considering the price was half of what most people in that position tend to make. They lost one hell of an employee. Their loss.
See, I know the truth. I know I didn't do anything worth their scorn. Thus, while sure it hurt to go through that and it was nasty, I feel great about myself because I did what was right, and didn't give into the pressure to do the wrong thing (one person in the power structure wanted me to do something illegal, probably so they could report me and get me in trouble most likely).
Though that whole ordeal was difficult, and though the ones who wanted me out didn't like me one bit for no reason whatsoever, I didn't lose any self-esteem over that. They should have because they treated people like trash for their own selfish reasons. But why would I when I did nothing wrong?
Now, on the choosing thing, I know my wife chose me. Yes, she had an affair. But what CS tells their affair partner "If he finds out, you're history." Yes, she made some wrong decisions, and all, but she felt the whole time that there was no contest if it ever came down to a decision. And that was proved once dday hit. She whole heartedly chose me over him.
But let's just say she did chose him, and left. I would obviously be sad and hurt. I love her and value her friendship, her love for me. But if she left, it would not be my fault, and my self-esteem would stay intact because it is not dependent upon her acceptance of me. I could head off to a desert and live alone for the next several years if I felt that was what needed to happen. I am who I am and nothing buy my own wrong choices can change that to create a negative picture of myself. And I have made wrong choices in my life, sins, that have affected that. But those are based on God's view, not mine. I guess if there's anyone who I base my self-esteem on, it would be God. He's the only one that matters in the end.
Now, these affect my identity. How to incorporate these changes into my life so I start living differently is a separate issue for me. How this will all settle out and what kind of life I'll have afterwards is still up on the air, still in motion.
And the one to two year time frame is a generalization. Based on my previous experience of going through a major identity change and how long it took before the new identity felt like "me" instead of "not me." Everyone is different, and different circumstances can play into this. A CS who doesn't come clean or be transparent for three or six months, the "identity shift" may be delayed starting up until then, when the identity starts to finally be formed. Or the BS gets stuck in anger mode, it won't start up until he/she's moved onto acceptance. There's just a host of variables, as Blonde said, that can affect how this plays out. The timeline is just what I've noticed in myself as well as couples who seem to be doing fine suddenly have a melt down around one to two years out...it explains why that time frame seems to be common.
But at some point, whether one, two, or five years down the road, you see the changes as no longer changes, but part of who you are, and you'll either like it and be okay with it (maybe even love it) or you'll hate it and want out. As long as things are still in the air there is hope to change. Once it settles in that this is it, and you can't live with it, then it comes to decision time. When that is for any one person, who knows.
But everyone says it will take at least one to two years to get past the A. And by that, I'm assuming they mean the point where the A is haunting them. Many experience that long after that, but most of those are one's who didn't get healing and whose rebuilding ended up not working out for whatever reason. And for some, it simply takes longer, even under the best of circumstances.
So yeah, it was a generalization that will not apply to all, but to many it will. I was only pointing out why those generalizations exist, that it takes that long due to the identity shift that doesn't tend to solidify until around that time. Once it settles down to "this is me," one can internally feel that it is "over" in a sense. A new "normal" has been established.
If you re-read what he wrote, you will see that he was trying to illustrate a point......a point that I firmly agree with.......
His point was, that a cheating spouse's choices SHOULD'T affect the betrayed's esteem, due to the fact that they were basically out of the loop of the infidelity. His point being that the CHEATER is the one who should feel bad (guilty/esteem)......READ his QUOTE
"My first thought was, uh? I mean, I would think the guilt of the CS would cause that, they are the one's who hold the "blame" for the affair and nearly destroying the marriage, assuming it doesn't end there. Why would it affect my self-esteem as a BS since it wasn't my fault? Certainly I'm hurt, and it was a huge shock"
So......as far as his point goes......I am in full agreement. Yes, this is the way it SHOULD be.
However, COLE then takes his anecdotal point, and changes it to a fact the moment anyone disagrees.
He missed MY point completely.
If you read his quote, he admits that he was HURT and SHOCKED, but that his esteem was not affected.
Every comment I offered, he rebuts with an argument that he doesn't even believe in..........he disputes it to continue his adversarial, devil's advocate nonsense.
I have experienced his style many, many times in the past at people who were far more superior and convincing at it than Cole is.
The esteem point is POST affair, not PRE affair......point missed again.
You were a City Finance Officer?
Fuck, I work at Home Depot and you STILL can't understand me.....
NOW MY SELF ESTEEM HAS REALLY GONE DOWN THE TOILET.
Believe me, first, that I feel. I was hurt greatly. That I process emotions differently than some is no surprise. I remember as a young child my younger brother made me very angry one time. I chased him. I guess he thought it was a game or something, but I was really angry. I trapped him at the fence beside our house, grabbed his collar, and pulled my fist back to hit him. But then I thought to myself in my anger, "I don't really want to mess his face up? Then I'd be stooping to his level." So I lowered my fist. He laughed at me because I didn't have the "nerve" to hit him. Many people would have hit him then for sure. But I released him and walked away knowing he had no idea what went through my mind, and because I had mercy on him, he laughed. How sad is that? But causing another pain even if they cause me pain wasn't in me to do, because I don't think I'm better than everyone else.
There are usually mentioned four basic personality types. Sanguine (social butterfly), Choleric (take charge, leader type), Melancholy (thinker, creative), and Phlegmatic (laid back, go with the flow). The first two are extrovert personalities and the last two are introvert. Everyone is usually some mixture of them all, but two of them usually dominate. I'm a mixture of the last two.
What I sometimes pick up is that some think their personality is "the" personality type that exist on the planet, and anyone with a different outlook on life must be in a tiny minority, odd balls, and not normal. Not like the "rest of us."
But I can tell you, there are tons of people who "intellectualize" things. Doesn't mean that is all they do, or that they even rely upon that for dealing with things. It is simply I like to understand how things work, get the big picture because then I can make sense of the details. If all I look at is the details as they hit me, they won't make any sense. If I have a big picture, a broad understanding, then I can experience something and say, "Ah, I know how to deal with that because it fits in here."
That's opposed to the choleric personality who acts and decides things before they have all the facts, who sees grabbing the bull by the horns and wrestling it down to the ground as more important than figuring out why the bull wants to hose you.
Each type has its good points and bad points, strengths and weaknesses, and all are needed to make this world work, so we can offset each others weakness with our strengths.
What isn't good (and I'm not saying, Blonde, you did this, but it has happened before by others), is because someone doesn't understand or agree with a personality type's pov, they try to make it seem that person is the abnormal one, the one who doesn't understand. It creates a way to dismiss the "odd ball" by saying he/she is not like the rest of us and can't understand us."
At least that's the message I sometimes get. Yes, I like to understand the why of things. If we didn't have people like that, we wouldn't be communicating now because computers and the Internet wouldn't be here. Understanding what is going on helps to make sense of this whole mess and I can respond to individual parts knowing how doing this or that will affect the rest of the parts, because I understand the whole. Without doing that, I'm shooting in the dark. And this is too important to relegate to a craps shoot. I've only one chance at getting this right. I'm going to do the best I can to make it work. And that means understanding it as best I can so I can respond to the situations in hopefully the best way, have an overall strategy that has a chance of succeeding, instead of just hoping for the best, which usually fails.
I appreciate post of everyone here, even reid, because I understand where he's coming from, the personality type he is. His comments make sense within that view point (when I can make sense of them). Likewise, Blind, you offer many good insights and you've gone through the fire. There is a sense in what you are saying that I understand, even if I feel it is mixing definitions and not dealing with self-esteem as I understand it, or that it is based upon something other than what I base self-esteem on.
But because I'm not a macho, take no prisoners, "nobody's going to tell me I'm wrong and get away with it guy" doesn't mean I'm not making sense to a lot of people who are like me. And though there are some things about me that are certainly unique and not like anyone else (and I'm used to being the odd ball, that is okay as well), I know there are people for who my intellectualizing is striking a chord with. You've seen them respond even on this thread.
So I don't agree with the sentiment I sometimes pick up on, like reid's first comment here that I shouldn't be "micromanaging" this, as pointless. This is a discussion forum. I put up something to discuss. Everyone is free to offer their opinions, but I don't think we should be discounting people's contributions simply because it doesn't jive with our own. How else will we learn, see new perspectives? We can discuss, seek to see what the other person is saying, etc.
If it doesn't help you, no problem here. But it will some, which is why I even brought it up. It was a revelation to me that the identity crisis is playing into this whole thing, and I've been through that before. I have an idea of what is going on there. And it made sense of a few things as well. What is wrong with contributing that to the discussion?
Don't diss others input because it isn't your experience, and don't get defensive when someone presents their experience. I'm not saying by that that everyone is like me. I don't usually get defensive about that. Only when people start assuming they can read my mind and my wife's, and diagnose our true motives about what we're really thinking and doing, based on a stab in the dark guess. And that what I'm saying isn't what I mean. I would expect a little more respect than that.
And no, if you don't respect me, it won't hurt my self-esteem. ;)
Every comment I offered, he rebuts with an argument that he doesn't even believe in..........he disputes it to continue his adversarial, devil's advocate nonsense.
I have experienced his style many, many times in the past at people who were far more superior and convincing at it than Cole is."
Okay, you've lost me here. I don't see how me being hurt causes me less self-esteem. Pre or post affair. I'm not at all trying to be superior to you or anything. I'm just discussing and trying to understand your point, but it isn't making sense. Apparently mine isn't to you either.
My self-esteem isn't based on how hurt I am. If you don't believe me, there's not much more I can do. I know the truth since I'm me and you're not. I'm not playing around or anything here.
Since you seem to be taking this attitude, I'll refrain from responding further to you. I respect you. Just because I don't always understand or agree with your points doesn't change that. Sorry I've somehow offended you. I'll continue to read your post and glean from them what I can. But since I apparently am striking a nerve with you on something, I'll try not to respond in the future unless you specifically ask for it.
When I mentioned intellectuallizing, I did not mean the above definition you provided. The above is ANALYTICAL, which is a part of my personality type as well.
When I refer to your intellectualizing......This is what I mean:
Intellectualization is a defense mechanism where reasoning is used to block confrontation with an unconscious conflict and its associated emotional stress, by 'using excessive and abstract ideation to avoid difficult feelings'.[1] It involves removing one's self, emotionally, from a stressful event. Intellectualization may accompany, but 'differs from rationalization, which is justification of irrational behavior through cliches, stories, and pat explanation'.[2]
Intellectualization is one of Freud's original defense mechanisms. Freud believed that memories have both conscious and unconscious aspects, and that intellectualization allows for the conscious analysis of an event in a way that does not provoke anxiety.[3]
A comparison sometimes made is that between ' isolation and intellectualization. In the former, we repress the thought but not the feeling - we might feel anxious without knowing why, for example. In the latter, we do the opposite and remember the thought but forget the feeling connected to it'.[4]
"Since you seem to be taking this attitude, I'll refrain from responding further to you. I respect you. Just because I don't always understand or agree with your points doesn't change that. Sorry I've somehow offended you. I'll continue to read your post and glean from them what I can. But since I apparently am striking a nerve with you on something, I'll try not to respond in the future unless you specifically ask for it"
This is certainly your choice and does not require prior announcement. I have not been offended by you and did not say you did. You are not striking a nerve with me .......other than being slightly annoyed.
I will offer my own little point.
If a friend shows up late, I may call him an asshole.
He may do the same.
It does not mean that I think he is an asshole....., but he is just an asshole for being late.
I may think you are being ridiculous on a particulart point. Stubborn and disagreeable......whatever....who the fuck am I to judge you. I have seen you do this quite a few times. It does not mean that I think this is who you are. I take it all thread by thread.
Does it matter?
At this point, with your career, marriage, finances, esteem all in tact....I guess you are here to support us, not vice versa. I expect you have many more answers than questions.
I have been feeling so needy lately. So lost and clingy. I used to not be like this and I realized that I am not who I was before the A. Not at all. And I am not who I was during it at all. I am moving away from that person as fast as I can. So I feel lost. Looking for who I am now. The new me I suppose. It is such a weird feeling. My interests have changed, the way I spend my time and my whole self is focused entirely on this restoration. I am rebuilding myself and making many changes. Core changes I hope.
Also I am scared. This CAN NOT - MUST NOT happen again. In the main task I have been given I must succeed and that is my healing and restoration. When you restore something it really doesn't go back to exactly what it was before. It is improved. It is a three tier restoration. Myself as a person, myself spiritually, and us as a couple.
So I think I broke down 1)for fear of failure...a good friend of ours failed and it really shook me, 2) for the first time I felt and mourned very deeply, on a whole new level, the losses we sustained including the loss of "identity."
So it was in our talks that night that it really came to us with clarity the identity crisis/changes involved in this. For him, for me, for us.
And BTW, Cole is a rock. He is so stable as a person. The hell I saw him go through the first month after DDAY was unlike anything I have seen in him before. Believe me, he felt it big time, but he never wavered in love and forgiveness. His self esteem is very very strong but he does get emotional. Believe it or not he is a crier. So am I. Imagine the waterworks. What he needs from me most is to see me healing and being restored and to that end I give my all. A new identity will emerge. It better be a darn good one.