Infidelity Support Group
Any relationship in which one partner engages willfully in sexual relations with another outside of the partnership is considered to have experienced infidelity. This breach of trust is often traumatizing for the faithful partner as well as the relationship, and support is often needed to heal emotionally and to decide whether or not the relationship should continue after...
Cole50
I was thinking of putting this as a journal entry, but then I thought this sounded more like a discussion for the general audience. So...
I had a sort of "revelation" of late. Recently, my W and I began reading "After the Affair." Still not sure what I think of the book as a whole, he makes some good points at times. One issue I disagree with, but that would get us off track. But one thing he said I hadn't read much about in the other two books I've read on the subject ("Not Just Friends" and "His Needs, Her Needs") is how an affair in the aftermath affects your self-worth, specifically speaking of the BS.
My first thought was, uh? I mean, I would think the guilt of the CS would cause that, they are the one's who hold the "blame" for the affair and nearly destroying the marriage, assuming it doesn't end there. Why would it affect my self-esteem as a BS since it wasn't my fault? Certainly I'm hurt, and it was a huge shock. But self-esteem? I know some of us here due to blameshifting and gaslighting feel our self-esteems attacked, but I guess in my situation that hasn't happened at all. So I didn't really get what he was saying here, as something real and not just incorrect blame.
And I've read about on here and other places where a rebuilding couple tends to fall apart sometimes a year or two out. And I posted a thread sometime ago about that topic, as some of you may recall, wondering what causes that.
Well, the thought occurred to me which made more sense out of both of those issues. I think when he was speaking about "self-esteem" and worth, what he was really talking about is dealing with 'who am I." As with any traumatic event, one's life changes significantly. Life doesn't go back to what it was before.
In my own case, I am doing things that before dday I wouldn't have considered as important. I'm spending more time with my W. Certainly a good thing, but before the A I felt my task like working on my next book or such was very important, and wasting time going to the store or lifting weights at the gym, while nice, would only take time away from what I really wanted to get done. After dday, my priorities changed drastically. I realize my W is much more important to me than getting that next book out. Yes, it will get out, maybe not as quickly, but it will get out. And that book, for all the fun of writing it, is not worth losing my wife over, or essentially telling her with my actions, "You aren't as important."
But it took the trauma of the affair to make that change happen. I would like to think I could have made the change in a less damaging way, but it is what it is. And in that regard, the change is positive. Other changes, especially for other couples, may not be so welcome. Like for me, the loss of security and innocence in the relationship. That's gone, never to be recovered. A change I lament.
But something interesting happened this week. My W said, for the first time since dday and the beginning of her affair, that she felt sorry and remorse for the security and innocence we lost because of her actions. She said she was aware of them before and sad at losing them, but this week, almost 7 months after dday, is the first time she felt within herself the sorrow over losing that in the A.
And she made a statement which clicked a light on. She was in a funk today, and we talked on the phone while she cleaned house. She was crying over this, and she said in many ways, its like so much has changed about her, she's not sure who she is anymore. Like she has to re-find herself. She looks back at what she did, and it doesn't fit who she was before the A. And it doesn't fit who she is now, and she has changed in several ways.
One thing I've learned is that any changes, no matter whether positive or negative, create a period of stress known as an identity shift/crisis. We encountered this some years ago when we made a major shift in religious affiliation. I had been a pastor of a very laid back style of worship and set that aside to start attending as just a person seeking to enter another group, starting at what felt like ground zero, a much more formal worship setting. That's a big shift, from leader to "who are you again?" And for several months, I would be standing in worship and have moments when I would look around as we worshiped and ask myself, "What the heck am I doing here?" It felt so strange, so...not me. And the whole time period was a time of redefining who I was as a person. Things I'd believed and held to most of my life to that point were thrown into question.
But sometime between one and two years of worshiping there, that feeling became less and less, until one time as the Christmas season rolled around, I found myself looking forward to the "new" Christmas hymns we would be singing. I realized it now felt like "me."
It took about one to two years for my new identity to feel like me. And I think that's what the author was getting at, what we are going through, and why around that time period people tend to have problems.
My W and I have made some major changes about how we relate to each other. Her interest themselves have changed since before the A. Before the A, for example, she loved to watch all the reality shows. American Idol, Biggest Loser, Dancing with the Starts, etc., etc. I didn't really care, couldn't stand some of them at all (the Bachelor just makes me want to gag myself with a spoon listening to the whining, "I thought he loved me!") But she watched these shows like it was a religion. One of the signs I should have picked up on early on but didn't is her interest in these shows faded. She no longer watched them. She didn't care about them when before, I didn't dare get in her way of watching one of those shows.
And since dday, she still hasn't shown any interest in those shows that she used to love. That's just one minor example. Her taste have changed. What she was interested in has changed. Even her desire for sex, as I've reported numerous times, has changed, apparently permanently, as that is now more than a year old and going strong.
So I think what happens is until a year has passed, most of us working toward rebuilding feel like things are pretty much up in the air. Everything is in flux, there's no sense of permanency. The question, "Who am I" goes through change in the aftermath of the A for both BS and CS.
But at some point around one to two years, that new identity, whatever it is, gets solidified and you start feeling like, "This is who I am." And two things can happen at that point. One, "I can work with this, or even love some aspects of it, our marriage is stronger, we are more in love with each other, etc." Or two, "I hate the new me, the new us, and I can't put up with this for the rest of my life."
Up until that happens, you're hoping things will get "fixed" and it will all end up great. But once the new identity begins to solidify as "this is it, this is what we've, what I've become," then it forces you to make a decision whether this is what you want to be. And if you don't like it, you jump ship.
I think that's why you may see some BSs after a year or two has passed, seemed to be doing well in the rebuilding, suddenly crash and burn, because they can't see themselves putting up with the "new me." When that settles into one's consciousness as "this is me now," it either scares us or reassures us.
But putting it in terms of an identity crisis makes sense out of why that happens, and why everyone says it will take at least around a couple of years to "get over" this, because that is how long it takes for whatever changes have been made, positive or negative, to feel no longer like a change, but like "who I am." No longer temporary, could change at any time, but permanent.
Does that make sense?
I had a sort of "revelation" of late. Recently, my W and I began reading "After the Affair." Still not sure what I think of the book as a whole, he makes some good points at times. One issue I disagree with, but that would get us off track. But one thing he said I hadn't read much about in the other two books I've read on the subject ("Not Just Friends" and "His Needs, Her Needs") is how an affair in the aftermath affects your self-worth, specifically speaking of the BS.
My first thought was, uh? I mean, I would think the guilt of the CS would cause that, they are the one's who hold the "blame" for the affair and nearly destroying the marriage, assuming it doesn't end there. Why would it affect my self-esteem as a BS since it wasn't my fault? Certainly I'm hurt, and it was a huge shock. But self-esteem? I know some of us here due to blameshifting and gaslighting feel our self-esteems attacked, but I guess in my situation that hasn't happened at all. So I didn't really get what he was saying here, as something real and not just incorrect blame.
And I've read about on here and other places where a rebuilding couple tends to fall apart sometimes a year or two out. And I posted a thread sometime ago about that topic, as some of you may recall, wondering what causes that.
Well, the thought occurred to me which made more sense out of both of those issues. I think when he was speaking about "self-esteem" and worth, what he was really talking about is dealing with 'who am I." As with any traumatic event, one's life changes significantly. Life doesn't go back to what it was before.
In my own case, I am doing things that before dday I wouldn't have considered as important. I'm spending more time with my W. Certainly a good thing, but before the A I felt my task like working on my next book or such was very important, and wasting time going to the store or lifting weights at the gym, while nice, would only take time away from what I really wanted to get done. After dday, my priorities changed drastically. I realize my W is much more important to me than getting that next book out. Yes, it will get out, maybe not as quickly, but it will get out. And that book, for all the fun of writing it, is not worth losing my wife over, or essentially telling her with my actions, "You aren't as important."
But it took the trauma of the affair to make that change happen. I would like to think I could have made the change in a less damaging way, but it is what it is. And in that regard, the change is positive. Other changes, especially for other couples, may not be so welcome. Like for me, the loss of security and innocence in the relationship. That's gone, never to be recovered. A change I lament.
But something interesting happened this week. My W said, for the first time since dday and the beginning of her affair, that she felt sorry and remorse for the security and innocence we lost because of her actions. She said she was aware of them before and sad at losing them, but this week, almost 7 months after dday, is the first time she felt within herself the sorrow over losing that in the A.
And she made a statement which clicked a light on. She was in a funk today, and we talked on the phone while she cleaned house. She was crying over this, and she said in many ways, its like so much has changed about her, she's not sure who she is anymore. Like she has to re-find herself. She looks back at what she did, and it doesn't fit who she was before the A. And it doesn't fit who she is now, and she has changed in several ways.
One thing I've learned is that any changes, no matter whether positive or negative, create a period of stress known as an identity shift/crisis. We encountered this some years ago when we made a major shift in religious affiliation. I had been a pastor of a very laid back style of worship and set that aside to start attending as just a person seeking to enter another group, starting at what felt like ground zero, a much more formal worship setting. That's a big shift, from leader to "who are you again?" And for several months, I would be standing in worship and have moments when I would look around as we worshiped and ask myself, "What the heck am I doing here?" It felt so strange, so...not me. And the whole time period was a time of redefining who I was as a person. Things I'd believed and held to most of my life to that point were thrown into question.
But sometime between one and two years of worshiping there, that feeling became less and less, until one time as the Christmas season rolled around, I found myself looking forward to the "new" Christmas hymns we would be singing. I realized it now felt like "me."
It took about one to two years for my new identity to feel like me. And I think that's what the author was getting at, what we are going through, and why around that time period people tend to have problems.
My W and I have made some major changes about how we relate to each other. Her interest themselves have changed since before the A. Before the A, for example, she loved to watch all the reality shows. American Idol, Biggest Loser, Dancing with the Starts, etc., etc. I didn't really care, couldn't stand some of them at all (the Bachelor just makes me want to gag myself with a spoon listening to the whining, "I thought he loved me!") But she watched these shows like it was a religion. One of the signs I should have picked up on early on but didn't is her interest in these shows faded. She no longer watched them. She didn't care about them when before, I didn't dare get in her way of watching one of those shows.
And since dday, she still hasn't shown any interest in those shows that she used to love. That's just one minor example. Her taste have changed. What she was interested in has changed. Even her desire for sex, as I've reported numerous times, has changed, apparently permanently, as that is now more than a year old and going strong.
So I think what happens is until a year has passed, most of us working toward rebuilding feel like things are pretty much up in the air. Everything is in flux, there's no sense of permanency. The question, "Who am I" goes through change in the aftermath of the A for both BS and CS.
But at some point around one to two years, that new identity, whatever it is, gets solidified and you start feeling like, "This is who I am." And two things can happen at that point. One, "I can work with this, or even love some aspects of it, our marriage is stronger, we are more in love with each other, etc." Or two, "I hate the new me, the new us, and I can't put up with this for the rest of my life."
Up until that happens, you're hoping things will get "fixed" and it will all end up great. But once the new identity begins to solidify as "this is it, this is what we've, what I've become," then it forces you to make a decision whether this is what you want to be. And if you don't like it, you jump ship.
I think that's why you may see some BSs after a year or two has passed, seemed to be doing well in the rebuilding, suddenly crash and burn, because they can't see themselves putting up with the "new me." When that settles into one's consciousness as "this is me now," it either scares us or reassures us.
But putting it in terms of an identity crisis makes sense out of why that happens, and why everyone says it will take at least around a couple of years to "get over" this, because that is how long it takes for whatever changes have been made, positive or negative, to feel no longer like a change, but like "who I am." No longer temporary, could change at any time, but permanent.
Does that make sense?
Yeah I think that makes sense. Part of that new identity does have some positives because after all a lot of us wouldn't be here if our relationships weren't vulnerable to this to begin with so it makes sense that both the CS and the BS have to shift priorities in order to make the marriage number one and that takes a change in philosophy.
Of course the other changes....the loss of innocence, safety in your marriage, trust....all those things get incorporated in the new you as well. I think there are many times we question whether it not we can get that part of ourselves back without the CS or at least I do sometimes. For the most part I think our marriage is better than it was before the A but when I think about the parts that have changed that aren't so great I start to wonder if the cost was too high.
Great post! I am pulling for you and your wife to get through this!
Strangely enough, I am a much better father, person and husband post affair.
Where to start here? This is huge.
I feel for your wife, coming to grips with how she looks at herself. It's a hard time for her. Send her my support.
How does this affect us, as the betrayed? Because we do, first, define ourselves as 'betrayed.' I don't know about anyone else, but I was betrayed and felt it to my bones, in my mind. My recurring thought was 'I was'nt worth being faithful to? Our life wasn't?' That is something I carried around for some time.
Around that two year mark...and then, I stopped looking at me like a 'betrayed person' and started thinking of 'I'll make it' person.
There is something about that two year mark that just is enough time for the dust to truly settle and for any person to look back and see the progress that they have made, either with reconciling or divorcing.
Huge issue tho...thanks for posting, L~
I am not sure if this is a rhetorical question or not.
I would seriously wonder about the psyche of someone did NOT feel jealous or their esteem damaged.
How can it NOT?
L`
I am not sure if this is a rhetorical question or not.
I would seriously wonder about the psyche of someone did NOT feel jealous or their esteem damaged. "
I think I sort of answered it as I went, so semi-rhetorical. But it was the first thing that popped into my mind when that was read. After all, I didn't do anything wrong, I wasn't to blame, so how would that effect my self-esteem? And in a way, I don't feel it did.
I guess I don't have some of the insecurities many do here. I've never got the "macho" thing, just seems like so much bravado and acting to me. Jealous? Yeah, but I don't think that addresses my self-esteem, just a normal reaction to finding out my wife was with another man as if he were her husband too.
IOW, it didn't intitially make sense to me because the only way I felt my self-esteem would be damaged is if I did something to hurt her, and it didn't jive with the perception of who I am as a person. She's going through that, because now she looks back and the pictures of who she was and how she acted and thought during the A conflict. She feels the fact that she's hurt me big time and that hurts the picture of herself as moral, honest, totally devoted wife picture. Thus, she has a self-esteem issue to work through.
I don't have any of that. I didn't do anything wrong. Sure, I can point to areas of the marriage that I realized I wasn't fulfilling as I should, and some of those issues may have self-esteem issues wrapped up in them, but as far as the A goes, no. Aside from the self-evaluation of where I needed to improve, I'm still essentially the same person as I was before.
Now what you refer to, I think, is more the tendency some have of seeing that maybe they weren't good enough, and that's why the CS took off after someone else. The fact that they were in effect ditching you for their own selfish reasons. I get that. That part does hurt to a degree, even though I know the whys and hows of it all. But, I still don't feel that affects who I am. I think it is because I don't see this as her doing that. She got into quicksand before she realized it and couldn't get out until I pulled her out on dday. I see that as more her own moral and spiritual failings than I do that I wasn't good enough. I know it had nothing to do with me and everything to do with her issues.
This isn't to discount the esteem attacks others may feel for their own reasons. But for me, I seriously don't feel my self-esteem was changed or attacked. I don't equate being jealous, hurt, and deceived as my self-esteem issues, it is hers.
But for me it makes more sense in coming at it from the identity shift and change. I do feel that is going on, like it did in the example, and I think that's what he really means. We're busy trying to incorporate this new reality, and I've got to incorporate who she has become into my own identity, being married to her.
And I will admit that many of the changes we've made have been very positive. We're more in love now that prior to the A, and prior to dday. We feel more like a team than ever before, just two days away from seven months out. We have our step backs like everyone else, but so far I feel if this is where the new me and her ends up at, I like it. Wish it didn't have the pain of the A in there, but it is what it is.
For me at least, this isn't an esteem issue, but forming a new identity in the wake of the trauma. For her, she's definately going through esteem issues, because of what she did that doesn't fit the picture of who she saw herself to be. But who I see myself to be hasn't really changed. I've done nothing wrong as far as the A goes. It's all on her, as we say around here, so how can it attack my self-esteem? That would only happen if you felt you did something terribly wrong that went against the picture of yourself that you'd never do something like that.
I agree with and can relate to a lot of what you said - in the wake of this experience, we are both forming new identities for ourselves and new understandings of how we each view the other. Like you, I wish that we hadn't had to experience the heartbreak and devastation of the A to get to this point, but if how we're doing now is any indication of how the rest of our marriage is going to be, I'll happily take it.
You really reevaluate your priorities and although I felt like my H was always first, I see now that he wasn't, and he sees now that I likewise wasn't with him. We didn't know how to listen to each other and respond in kind, thoughtful ways... and it's hard to say that for me because I always thought of myself as the good, devoted wife... but what good was it to be those things if I didn't express love in the way he understood and constantly had a resentful, bitter attitude toward him? Sure, my H was a good provider financially, but he was not involved in my heart and didn't tell me how he appreciated anything I did... he didn't speak my language either.
I hate that anybody has gone through this trauma of infidelity, but I applaud each and every one of us who has taken advantage of the opportunity it presented to grow and learn, whether it was together with a healed marriage or separate with a divorce. The silver lining is that you come to know yourself better than you ever did before and really learn a new way of looking at the world and how you fit into it relationally.
It seems that a good proportion of people have indicated that it effected their self esteem, all the way to it shot it down to hell. And I can see that very well.
I rarely see posters mention how they feel it didn't effect them much! So, Cole, at times, I do relate to your situation a bit more. I think if one's self-esteem is really in tact, there might be a little less likelyhood of it getting totally destroyed. It's something I worked on, with planned strategic intentions, due to having a lower self-esteem, as a result of my family of origin, and abuse.
But in HS and College, and through doing tasks, accomplishing goals, be they academic, job oriented, work fulfillment, love and family, financial, trips, etc. I found my self-esteem rising to average I'd say, and then it slowly crept to a very high self-esteem. So you can say, I guarded it like the Holy Grail, cuz I worked hard at it, all along, a unique intangible goal, perhaps many don't even think of.
So,it's for these reasons, that I don't think that my self-est plummeted as a result of my H's betrayal. I thought pretty much like you, I didn't do anything wrong. But truth be told, I think people with more analytical minds, people who tend to be more intellectual, and perhaps super rational, and a little less feely, tend towards this thinking. So I'm a little bit of both. If I want to become really authentic, and vulnerable, I do think I can find a few ways that the self-esteem thing did get affected.
I think I was so trusting of my H, that I put him on a pedestal, and just believed that fidelity was ingrained in him. So, that thinking was faulty, and now Ihave more intelligence and insight to realize, that was kind of stupid thinking, or what psch's call black and white thinking. There is no absolute way of behavior for anyone. Maybe we think we would absolutely not do something, but it's a far reach, and faulty thinking, to think our spouse would absolutely not do a certain behavior. So, my intellectual component, and my instincts about people, those components which could be part of my self esteem, proved wrong. So, I learned and grew, and took a little step down off my self esteem ladder.
Now, I know, :
No matter how much you think you know someone, (spouse, lover soulmate, etc), you really don't. Some people are a closed book variety, and choose not to share it all with you. Especially in the sex department: like their fantasies, you may never know, even if you ask, what kinky things they like, what porn they may have watched, what their true beliefs about certain things are, there's a whole shipload of stuff we may never be privy to.
And my general feeling of security, and depending on him, and my identity component of being mrs. ____, all got rattled a bit. I did have to try on different roles, and imagine myself single, and really think for myself, and sort things out for myself, and realized at that moment he didn't have my back.......
So all those beliefs we have, they can get shattered, blown away, and it's up to us to find the pieces, if we so choose, and put them back together again. And, more than likely, as we do, we realize some of them have changed, as if discolored by the sun, sitting out there too long, or some pieces have changed or curled up (like a dry orange peel). So, I totally concur, we are never the same again! It has changed alot of us, deep down to the core. And it's basically dependent on what we are made of, what we want to be made of, and how well we cope, and what we want out of this.
My mom's boyfriend lost his job years ago, and he was a supervisor. Due to down-sizing, he was blind-sighted, deeply hurt, very upset, and got depressed. He never got another job, he never got out of his depression, and when he died of pneumonia 25 years later, it was cuz he refused to go to the hospital, cuz he basically gave up on life, and on himself.
Another person, would have handled that career loss, differently, and got back into the work force, and kept their good work self-esteem, and done well, and may have lived longer. So perspective has a lot to do with it, how we handle failure, depression, life's ups and downs, all inculcated with our values we uphold......all that wrapped up with a pretty bow can contribute to our self-esteem.
So honestly, a very hard question to answer, cuz it involves so many dang factors, which vary in so many areas!
Is it possible that you are just way more emotional than Cole? Is it possible that when you got betrayed, it really messed with your ego?
Is it possible that Cole is a very deeply analytical, spiritual, intellectual type and handles things differently??? Do you think his belief systems may vary? Maybe his childhood? Maybe his being a pastor, and leading a flock, and setting a fine example?
So, therefore, I don't really think it's wise to compare yourself to every male here! So many different factors come into play, from his upbringing, to his natural DNA, to his wife versus your wife.
A little example, while you selected a wife of 15 yrs. old, at the age you were what 28 or 38? I forget which one. But, I'm going out on the limb here, that Cole wouldn't have married a 15 yr. old cheerleader, who was only a sophomore in HS when he was 28 or 38, which means almost double her age. Just guessing here!
I think also that you may have some decisions ruled by pride. Pride can be a good thing to some extent, but it can also have it's downfall. And then, there's the factor of authenticity, knowing yourself, reaching out to others, and a zillion other factors which go into who we are as a person! But then, I'm just guessing from what I read here, Reid!
Because affairs in my opinion-re-write our past, present and future in some aspects they do send us into identity crisis.
I'm not the same person before the affair-and as I get further and further out I coninue to view things differently.
And as we navigate this journey we continue to evolve as a person and as a society.
My priorities have changed. I think you do some real soul searching and take inventory of yourself.
And as far as the self-esteem I think it effects women more. Society has made it no secret how women should look. Next time your in the super market-check out the magazine covers as you check out. Young and thin is the flavor.
Sending you support!
L~
Caveman hunts for MORE food to feed his offspring...more danger.
Caveman DON'T WANT to hunt for OM's offspring.
Jealousy is born...now do you understand.
If our woman fuck OM, we can die for it....hunting to support OM's kids.
Furthermore, alpha male gets to spread his seed.
I wonder if the nature of the relationship fundamentally changes after d-day, where many of the BS quit trying so hard in the relationship. Rather than trying to please, they are now trying to survive. Maybe many of us look back and realize that we should have demanded more from the spouse all along. Maybe that gave some of them the belief that they could get away with anything.
So after a year or two post d-day maybe the relationship dynamic has changed. The BS is tired of their servant (i.e.doormat) role and doesn't care nearly as much what the CS thinks. The CS, on the other hand, is not now nor will ever be a giver.
So before d-day you had a + and a -, a proton and an electron stuck together. But the new BS is through "pleasing" and the CS won't or can't change into more of a giver. At that point it is clear that the previous marriage dynamic is undone. Permanently.