I think you may be in to something in regard to "earning forgiveness" being confused with something else, Cole.

I just don't have the words to piece together the concepts well enough. I just know that "forgive" feels like "excuse" to me. It feels like wiping the slate clean and just moving on.

If my husband and I hadn't reconciled, I would still need to forgive him for my own personal healing, but it would have been a LOT harder. I still have not found a way to "forgive" (in particular, let go of hurt and anger and wipe the slate clean) the other woman. I don't feel that hurt and resentment toward my husband and it didn't "just happen". And yet it did.

In super simplified (imperfect) terms:

It was as if he stole money from me and has now paid it all back with interest. I still get worried sometimes that he might steal from me, but I don't feel angry about it because he has tried to make things right. I don't feel like the other woman stole money from me, but more like she encouraged my husband to steal and then shrugged and remorselessly walked away when he decided he had to repay me. I hate her for not doing the "right thing" though for the life of me I can't even imagine what the right thing would be.

I guess "forgiving" by just shrugging it off with a, "I'm not mad at you," doesn't come natural to me. I have a firm (albeit immature) belief that life should be fair and people should have consequences for their actions - and then and only then - is their debt erased (forgiven).

Anyway, thank you for your response, Cole. I know you've weighed in on the forgiveness topic many times before and I can never quite stand where you are and see what you see, but each time you write about it, I feel like I get a little closer, at least.

I feel that there is almost two parts of forgiveness, almost contradictory. There is forgiveness for/of yourself, and for the actions done to you.
I struggled for a long time and read "how can I forgive you". I am on the same page as pinkpony, I couldn't have said it better.

I feel one portion of forgiveness is the conscious decision not to exact payment or revenge . In that definition I forgave my CS and best friend immediately. I sure fantasized about hurting them at times, but I did not punish either of them. I obviously cut the OW from my life/friendship, but that wasn't to punish her but for me to feel safer.

The other part of forgiveness seems debateable and I even studied dictionary terms of it to try to understand. Seems funny to say that in that way, but it is true. No one really knows how forgiveness or love is until they have had to take the steps to understand it's meaning for them. It is like you really can't imagine what the pain of infidelity is like until you have to walk through it.

For me, I believe that forgiveness doesn't have as much to do with the other person as we try to make it. We can't ever truly control anything outside of ourselves, and there are limited things we can control about ourselves. That being said, I don't believe we can technically "forgive" anyone.

Forgiveness is about taking the time to go through the steps of grieving and feeling the depth of the pain and taking an accounting of what damage was done to you. It is internally moving through each wrong until the pain lessens. It is about seeing that the person who hurt you isn't going to hurt you that way again and that takes time. Sometimes lots of time.

Saying forgiveness is a choice is half right. It is being open to moving through the situation and going through the emotions involved. You can't just flip a switch and make it happen, even if you want to.

Infidelity is a breach of trust in a relationship and to heal that gaping hole caused by infidelity is like standing at a chasm and having the faith to jump across, and it may take a lot of encouragement to do that. Most people have to do it in baby steps, creating a bridge bit by bit with the material the CS provides by their long term actions or finding it in themselves if the CS doesn't help.

I think that forgiveness never means that what was done was ok to do, just that you refuse to stand at the side of the cliff longing for the other side any more.

I am 2.5 years after DDay and It still hurts and I think of it every day, but it is no longer as painful as a punch in the stomach and we are trying to build our "bridge", even if I can't be sure he will still be on the other side, I have to be able to continue to work on my bridge myself.
Like love, you don't decide to "do" it, you look back and realize it is already "done".

@ Cigarman with respect
I am saddened by your posts over these years. Your Ex has such power over you that she managed to leave you so jaded and judgemental about life. I hope you can do the work required to build your own bridge across the gaping hole she left in you...
not everyone out there is evil.
I would be willing to mail you (for free) my copy of "How Can I Forgive You). Just private message me your address. I truly hope for your sake (as it doesn't affect me in any way) that you are able to move past the hate and hurt. Life is too short to waste it obsessing with negativity and anger.

@Allora: "I guess "forgiving" by just shrugging it off with a, "I'm not mad at you," doesn't come natural to me."

Oh, I got mad/angry at her after I forgave her. She will have to deal with the consequences of what she did. It still hurts. I guess in my mind it doesn't involve the negation of any of those. What it does mean is simply:

She violated my rights and person, she directly offended me. I separate that from the consequences which will follow no matter whether I forgive or not. Some of those consequences would involve my reaction to continued problems. But by forgiving her, I'm not going to add to those consequences my own punishment.

Turn it toward the judicial system. A man gets convicted of murder. The judge decides to have mercy on him for whatever reason, and sets him free. While it is true the consequences of going to jail or the death penalty has been released, that man will have to live with what he did for the rest of his life, and if he doesn't heal from it, will suffer other problems. And if he does it again, then he could be thrown into prison.

But the pain of the relatives at the loss of his victim, even if they forgive him, will still mourn the loss, will still feel the pain of their loved one's death, will go through the grieving process.

But you are right. Many are not ready to forgive right away, and that is okay. But I think it will be hard for rebuilding to succeed or start to "work" if the BS doesn't arrive there at some point along the path.

But all it means is she offended me, and I chose to forgive that offense in the hopes of her redemption. Whether she is redeemed, though, is between her and God.

Also, I don't think there is anything labeled "forgiving ones self." To do that, you'd have had to commit an offense against yourself. Rather, I think what people really mean is getting to the point to accept their spouse's and/or God's forgiveness for what happened. It took Gabi nine months to reach that point.

But thanks for your comments. I understand a bit more what you are referring to. To my mind, if a murder does the time, that is, pays it back, then they aren't forgiven. What is "erased" isn't the crime or its consequences, but paying back the offended party. It is the debt that is forgiven, so if it is paid back, it isn't forgiven.

I think what you are talking about is denial, pretending it never happened, living in fantasy land. Not wanting to face the truth, so forgiveness means in that context that I'm going to act and go through life as if that never happened. But that isn't what I understand forgiveness to be. Specifically, it is choosing to forgive the debt itself. Everything else is still there, including our own processing of the anger and emotions and hurt.

I should add a disclaimer there. I think some CSs do think of forgiveness in terms of acting as if it never happened. Gabi never did that, thankfully, but we've both heard cases where the CS said as much.

One thing, I think, is that by forgiving me, By not being punishing or adversarial with me, he put us on the same team in rebuilding. It also eliminated what would have been a big distraction for me. By that I mean that if he had been punishing and adversarial with me, I would have been focused on that. the focus would have been on his anger and angst. I would have deserved it. As it is, I did have to deal with his struggles and emotions, but by being on the same team and fighting for the same goal, I was freed up to focus on what I needed to do to work on myself.

I needed that too. I needed to work hard, for all I was worth, on healing. I had to heal myself, I had to help heal Cole and I had to do my part to heal our M. Past tense isn't quite right even because this is a process that continues on till death us do part. Cole often told me that his healing was in direct proportion to mine.

For me that is the beauty of forgiveness, the removal of the adversarial, punishing factor. It puts the pressure for the CS where it should be, on healing, on working like mad on themselves, on helping their BS heal, on dealing with their issues and learning to be a better spouse.

So even if the BS can't feel forgiveness, as they perceive forgiveness to be, they can make a commitment to not punish and not be adversarial. Counseling can help with that. All the other emotions and factors will still be running high, but you will be on the same team, helping each other through the severe emotional roller coaster that this journey is.

One more thought. I had a very bad day a couple of days ago. I felt deeply sad. I sank into despair and I cried and cried while I was working alone. I didn't call Cole. I told him about it later. I told him I didn't call him because I didn't want to bring him down. He said, "but it one of us is going to go down, we go down together." Next time I will call and let him help me find my way up again. He is good at that.

We also must not forget.

It is possible to forgive the CS and move on with our lives.

Chatting this AM, this subject matter many has confused with forgive and reconcile.

These are 2 very different mindsets.

I forgive you and have decided to move on with my life could be anothe way of forgiving.

@cigar
too true. In my long winded message I guess this is what I meant.

I've spent some time thinking about this, and I feel like Cole is right. I think maybe I got forgiveness mixed up with trust and respect when I said that he had to "earn it back". Perhaps forgiveness is a choice... But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's an easy one.

For me, I agree with Allora that forgiveness feels like I'm just saying "whatever, I'm fine with it." And that's not the impression I want to give at all. At the same time though, I don't wish to issue another form of punishment. Sometimes I just find it hard to believe that he really is sorry for what he did to me. He completely knew what he was getting into and he still to this day just says "I don't know" when I ask him why he did it. It makes me very resentful towards him and it's impossible to forgive him.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that by him doing the right thing and earning back my trust and respect, I'll be able to let go of all those feelings and forgive. So it's not necessarily the forgiveness he has to earn... But there are things that need to be proven to me in order to forgive.

I think I also feel that when someone says i forgive you to their spouse that it may give the impression that we are saying " no big deal" about what they did. After 2 and a half years I can see it isn't exactly like that, but the fact remains that there is something in me that doesn't want to tell my H that I forgive him because I have never felt this much pain and he is the cause of all of it!

So call it anger or whatever you like, I just can't do it. I was wondering if anybody else struggles with their self image? I want to know what people think about when they look at me. Of the ones that know what happened. Do they see a woman who stays because she has nowhere else to go, or one that doesn't think enough of herself to not put up with that kind if behavior from her own H? I think I may have lost some respect for myself in all of this. Why wasn't i strong enough to kick him to the curb? I guess I see myself as weak. I really hate that, it's awful that I feel that way about myself. And again...it is H fault.

socrushed- I doubt that anyone with any reasonable sense of judgement would lose respect for you.

It's even worse for a man that was cheated on (in terms of what other men think), however.....i really don't give a shit what my friends feel about it.

This is a subject I have talked with my counselor about at length.
My question was " is there really a such thing as TRUE forgiveness? His answer yes but it takes a lot of time. That has helped me because I kept beating myself up with questions like if I'm not going to forgive my H what is the point of staying. I do think that forgiveness ranks right up there with trust. The 2 hardest things when someone cheats.

I agree that it gets easier with time. But if I'm not thinking of it 24/7 does that mean I have forgiven?

I have read some articles that say that one thing that is done to you is not worse than another i.e. if you have a car accident can you forgive the other driver and say OK they just made a mistake when they ran the red light. Probably most people can forgive someone for that. I read that and thought yes I forgive people everyday!!! But those people I forgive haven't ripped my heart out purposefully. And if that person ran a red light and killed one of my children could I EVER forgive?

I really think forgiveness is a journey...people have to work hard at it and for it. Eventually you get to a better place but my Dday was 3 months ago and I still want to punch my H in the nut sac and rip his skanky cheater "girlfriends" hair out. Though I do experience the urge less and less!!!

This was actually a really great discussion. Better than most I've seen regarding forgiveness, re-earning trust, etc. I think some of those died off when/if people disagreed or didn't understand. It's really helpful to see different perspectives and differing opinions to compare, contrast, and help one come up with one's own definition and realize one's own limitations.

I DO think that even betrayed spouses need to find forgiveness for themselves. We beat ourselves up for our parts in the affair (being neglectful of our partners, for example) and we also think we are dumb for believing the lies or not seeing the signs. Maybe not ALL BS's feel that way, but I know a lot of us do. In this regard, I think the healing that takes place is similar for oneself and for one's partner because it's a sense of giving love and acceptance in spite of weaknesses or poor choices.

Maybe that's really it, actually. Acceptance = Forgiveness when it comes down to it. Not accepting what happened but accepting the perpetrator of the ill deed (ourselves or our spouses) is frail and human and doesn't ALWAYS do his/her best but is no less valuable as a whole person. I think even if my husband and I had separated and he'd done no work to repent, or even thinking of the anger and resentment I feel toward the OW... this is the sort of forgiveness I would like to work toward.

My husband has it. I guess he "earned" forgiveness by reminding me of the good inside him and therefore making it easier for me to see him as a whole person and not as the deeds he committed. It seems like many people find this forgiveness easier because they already see the whole person - flaws and all - and respect that each flaw and each trait are only facets.

Because I do not "know" the OW this may be why I find it hard to "forgive" her. She is not a whole person to me. I have only seen her ill deeds (to me and others) so I can't accept her as a whole person.

This is def something for me to meditate on and consider more. I think it will be valuable. TY again, all.

Blind-thanks for your kind words:) I need to try and not worry about how others may view my life. I needed that reminder.

Allora- I really liked everything that you wrote. It all made perfect sense to me. I do try hard to see the good person my H is, because he IS a good man. My hurt still gets in the way of things even after 2 years though. I remember a while back a guy on here said that he would always feel superior to his wife after her A so he went and had an A of his own. He said that were on the same level again and working on the marriage.

I thought about what he said and wondered if I thought myself superior to my H. A better person than he was. I came to the conclusion that I did not see myself a better human being than my H, but I did feel that I had been a better spouse. I guess thats progress anyway.

I told H this and he didn't argue the fact. I think he was happy that I didn't view him as less of a person than myself. I'm still working on acceptance and hopefully that will lead to better things!

If you are working hard on communication and rebuilding, then it is important to clarify where you are at. Even if you feel you have or want to forgive, then it's good to communicate with your cs that forgive doesn't mean forget, free pass, it's all good, etc... My H and I have continued to work through hurt and bumps since I forgave.

It's interesting that you say that, about a BS feeling like he or she is better than the CS, socrushed. I think part of what you said meshes well with the whole topic of forgiveness as Cole has outlined.

If a BS feels superior or feels entitled to being able to punish, trample, or abuse their CS, no recovery (personal OR marital) can take place, IMO. It's not even really about "forgiving", it's about human decency and courtesy at that point.