I am only trying to have thought-provoking discussion--not seeking to define anything for anybody.

And I think I have already made it clear, or at least I have tried to, that if somebody is either perfectly fine with or enjoys any kind of sexual practice, and is doing it because they want to rather than out of a sense of obligation, then that's fine. These kinds of things are really to each his own. People are so different physically, emotionally, and mentally with what they enjoy/dislike etc.

Xa1 I think that is a very good point that with men giving oral sex, they do not have something shoved down their throat. I didn't even think of that. So it's probably really not so equal a comparison.
Funny, to me, I think I would feel like the man was being put definitely in kind of a demeaned position if/when he gave oral sex, and I wouldn't feel comfortable with receiving it, for that reason! lol. Also, this might be a weird thing on my part, but I'm quite sure I would view him as less manly being put in that position, for some reason, and wouldn't like that. :p

The guy I mentioned who responded angrily about my views on oral sex said that he would both (in general) expect it and give it. And he asserted repeatedly (his view) that it's an act of contrition, for both parties, to each other.

So I find all that deeply thought-provoking. There is such a fine line between contrition and being demeaned, I think (in ANY context--emotional/etc.)

I fully recognize that MOST people 100% condone all types of sex, are completely used to it, and view it as so normal that like how could it not be healthy? (In regards to the topic of what constitutes one's views of normal, I think that comes mainly from the culture. Oral and anal sex have only become normal in the past couple decades or so, mainly popularized by their growing appearance in porn..which back then was a fairly new appearance.) I am saying I'm skeptical that these types of sex are completely healthy (in a deeper way anyway.. obviously if 2 people are equally happy with it, it's not a big deal). That's just the theory I'm playing with and exploring. So if you'd like to be a part of exploring those ideas, feel free! We're not all going to agree, by any means, but we can have interesting discussion potentially (rather than just getting annoyed with each other).

One thing that prompts me to lean this way and want to open this discussion is the countless stories I've read of women being pressured into various types of sex, including just basic vaginal sex, but I think especially these other types. I have read a lot to suggest that many women participate in stuff like oral sex under pressure. ("Pressure", like everything else, can range from minimal/subtle to extreme). Like, if the main reason most women engage in oral sex is to please their man ("even if she gags and chokes"), as Xa1 suggests..I guess I just really feel like, What is that? (Again, if she is truly 100% ok with it and wants to do it, I'm not judging at all!! More power to her.) I just can't help being suspicious that a lot of women do not enjoy it and do it because they are worried about abandonment, being less valued, etc. I have interest in giving a voice to women who would shy away from talking about that, for those very reasons.

"a. why isn't normal sex good enough (for stimulation/orgasm/etc.)? (Like does oral really work 'better', seriously?)"

I'll answer that. Only 30% of women can orgasm through intercourse. The vast majority of us need direct clitoral stimulation, which is generally done most effectively with a finger, vibrator, or tongue.
I don't see anything "disconnected" about oral sex. In fact, having someone explore your genitals with their mouth while you are in a very vulnerable position can be quite intimate.

Hiding a comment like what you like and consider normal in your own personal sex life isn't healthy, is a blanket statement. It sounds like the opening line to gay bashing.

Now if you were to say "this doesnt seem healthy for ME" or something like that I would have no issues whatsoever.

@xa1 " See? There is goes, you are being accused of 'defining it for the rest of us', as if you were. "

That is what a blanket statement does. It defines things for others. "this kind of sex isn't healthy" Like I"m being told that because I like to give oral sex I"m involving in a sex act that is somehow bad.

You don't seem to like me very much, have I done something to offend you?

The point you raise about gay sex is interesting, and I don't know much about it. Certainly wouldn't wanna bash it, in any way, shape, or form, by any means.

Dave I am mainly trying to talk about women's experience with giving oral sex, really. (And I know there are plenty who are fine/good with it, and like I already said, that's obviously fine then.) I am trying to explore the aspect of some (if not a lot) of women feeling pressured into it, even when it's to their distaste.

And I'm saying it's a theory I'm exploring (in regards to whether it's healthy). So I'm not asserting that it's not. And also really what I am trying to get at by healthy, is what is truly the best for people on a deep level, emotionally. That really has nothing to do with being "wrong" or anywhere close to it (perhaps it's a conversation about ideals, in some sense). And I have stipulated so many times that I don't feel judgmental about it. If the woman you're with wants oral sex, that's awesome! If she wants to give it, that's awesome too!

Like I say, just trying to have thought-provoking discussion.

Awesomeself you raise interesting and thought-provoking points. I am aware about the issue with women not reaching orgasm as quickly (I personally would prefer fingering as the solution, lol). The point that oral sex can be a positive intimate experience is a very interesting one, and I will definitely give it consideration.

I'm honestly surprised that more people don't get grossed out by giving oral sex (guys or girls). Lol. And I can't help but wonder if that's simply because of how expected/normal it's become in the past couple decades through heavy cultural influence.

I know many males who use VIagra alternatives or Best Enhancement Pill
just to please their counter part in best possible way. So, I am not agree with you that only males are demanding in sex activities and they do not care for woman's feeling.

I'm definitely not saying that all men are demanding, demeaning, don't seek to please, and don't care...by any means. I really apologize if I gave that impression. A lot of the men in my family are some of the best people I know. There's a lot of women who have all those issues. I just do think there are a lot of women who feel pressured into doing sexual things they don't enjoy and they do it to please their man because their afraid of rejection. I'm not saying men are bad. There are plenty of great, sensitive men who deeply care. That's an interesting point that men use enhancement pills to please their women. Honestly I think usually it is to please themselves (feel manlier or w/e), but that's interesting that sometimes it's the women's request lol. I know a lot of men will go to great lengths to please their women, both sexually and otherwise.

Sex??? What is that?? It has been so long for me!! hahaha!!

Anyway I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE giving and receiving oral sex.

For me that is the only way I can orgasm.

To put this in context, for a long time I felt that women were inherently selfish lovers. I went to great lengths to please the women in my life but very rarely got it back. Sex seemed like it was all about them and at times was a chore.

So it often felt like what you are saying, that men were pressured by women in pleasing them and that they don't care how a guy feels.

And while there is a lot of personal truth to that, what I discovered was that it wasn't women in general, it was the specific women that I brought into my life. It was something that I could have control over.

For me, generalizing was a very bad thing, because it pushed the decent women out of my life and only brought in more of the users. When we build these constructs in our minds, we project them onto new people we meet. The decent ones tend to sense that they are being prejudged and avoid you... while the ones you EXPECT to find will stay... self fulfilling prophecy.

So another way of looking at this is, why is there a trend of women with low self esteem that will do things they aren't comfortable with? What are the factors that drive them to this?

Now THAT is something I have given a lot of thought to. "women's beauty" is a trillion dollar industry with the media forcing unrealistic images onto women. A woman that is happy with herself and confident isn't a good consumer in our current market...

HA! Beauty magazines... more like "make you feel like crap about yourself so you will buy a metric ton of products to try to fix non existent issues" magazines.

OK... off my soap box, carry on.

Thanks for your response Dave, that had a crap-load of insight. :) I appreciate your advice about pre-judgements becoming self-fulfilling prophecies. I really want to give that careful consideration. I know a lot about people having patterns of certain relationships in their lives and repeating them, and I still have a lot to learn for myself in that area. Sounds like you have had amazing insight into that in your own life and were able to turn things around, which is so huge.

Having these conversations is extremely, extremely tricky. When you say there's a trend of women with low self-esteem that will do things they aren't comfortable with, by your definition (seems to me) you're making a generalization. That's not a bad thing, if the trend does in fact exist.

I understand the problems with making a generalization and projecting it onto everybody. The question is one of statistics, majorities, larger cultural trends, and things like that. Your experience is the perfect illustration of how even sex can EAsily go the other way (the man feeling obligated to obsess about pleasing the woman). There's a lot of cruel, controlling women and a lot of sensitive, great men. I am aware of that on an individual level in my life.

I'm mainly interested in exploring the majority trend that men expect oral and anal sex, and that many women participate out of a sense of obligation vs. actually wanting to/enjoying it.

I think the giant question about women with low self-esteem who will do a lot (of stuff they're uncomfortable with) is a vastly interesting one and we could probably write essays exploring it. For all the awesome men that there truly are, I think there is still a lot of misogyny on a large scale. Women get put down more deeply, more often (for example, experience much higher rates of sexual abuse and domestic violence). Keeping their self-esteem down keeps them controllable/usable. Again, I'm talking about really stepping back and looking at larger cultural trends and also historical roots and realities. There are plenty of men with low self-esteem and some women with great self-esteem.

Thanks Onetoomany :) Good to hear/be reminded how many genuinely/enthusiastically enjoy different kinds of sex.

Dave said, "So it often felt like what you are saying, that men were pressured by women in pleasing them and that they don't care how a guy feels. "
I think that may be true in general, than a woman makes a man jump through a lot of hoops to get their reward, whether the reward is approval, "love", or just sex. But we have to keep in mind one thing,, if a man is not turned on and happy enough to perform then he just stays flat and can't. A woman doesn't have to be aroused to be used, but a man has to have a hard on.
Yes, a man can just use fingers and tongue, but to me, that's not enough so I have to tease him and please him enough to be able to give me what I want.
Again, for the women who say they 'love to give a man oral' we have to understand what that means. There is no clit or g-spot in a woman's mouth so the 'love' is in giving the man pleasure.

Dave also asked some good questions, "So another way of looking at this is, why is there a trend of women with low self esteem that will do things they aren't comfortable with? What are the factors that drive them to this?"

Many, if not most, of the girls and women who have this low self-esteem, and do things they are not themselves comfortable with have come from backgrounds of child abuse, sexually molested, perhaps physically beaten and have been conditioned to tolerate what most women would consider abuse. The same with men, both abusers and abused, that many have either been victims of or witnessed abuse, and when we grow up we tend to repeat the relationship dynamics we learned.
There are others who will say that they had wonderful childhoods and that their low self-esteem happened over time in an adult relationship with someone who was able to constantly undermine their sense of worth and dignity and condition them to accept abuse.
There are others who don't see it as coming from any of this and will just say they like it all and see no problem whatsoever, that this is the highest calling of womanhood.

That a man would use enhancement pills soley to please his mate? hmmm My mate never had to use them, but then again if he did while we were on a week's vacation that would have been.. but then again.. did you ever see Robin William's comedy spoof of it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFM11SmoxfI

Wow, I never knew Robin Williams was so filthy...damn.

Ok, in defense of poor men who constantly get stereotyped as emotionless, sex-crazed animals who force women to have anal and oral sex .. Women are the ones that frequently use sex as a weapon across the board. Times have changed and people have changed, but certain things are still lagging.
It is true that statistically women have higher rates of abuse than men, however we really don't know for sure if in the " civilized" world it is reality, because men do not report being abused by women.
I know many, many men who have had sex withheld from them as means of punishment, who have been physically assaulted by their female partners, men who have been falsely reported to the police for abuse, so the woman would get full custody of the children, etc..
I think it goes both ways.
Women these days as not as submissive as you think. They will not give a blow job or do a butt fuck just to keep a man around, because most women can easily go out and find someone else.
From my experience in general, most men do not NEED anal sex, but it would be tough to find someone who is repulsed by oral sex and would absolutely love it if a woman never went down on him.

it seems to me that sex, can be a means of expression, and pleasure and intiacy thats broad and creative and varied in intensity and volume and texture and colour and SPIRIT as we are as people

and the dance between partners of being active or surrendering can be as naughty or romantic as you can conceive, or are willing to embody

and that thats impacted and shaped by your self-image, your religious background, the scripting your parents left you with, and other variables that get stuck to you like velcro from your childhood experiences and explorations

i think what makes them things that feel good, or feel good in the moment but might diminish you in your own eyes, might be related to how much trust there is with your partner, how honoured you are, and how meaningful the sharing of yourself is to your partner

one act done during a one night stand with a guy who cruised you on craigs list, and the same act explored with a person who is crazy about you and wants to know you inimately, can leave you feeling degraded or exalted

I was gonna stay out of this until I read this:

"Oral and anal sex have only become normal in the past couple decades or so, mainly popularized by their growing appearance in porn."

These practices have been around for a long, long time. I refer you to the wiki article on the subject, which has links to other articles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_human_sexuality

I really think "demeaning" isn't the right word to use in this situation. Both partners in a couple should feel comfortable with whatever "practices" they participate in. If the point of sex is to demean the other person, then that is JUST sex, not "making love." Those kinds of couples don't usually last. In true, loving, committed partnerships, the term should be to make love, not just have sex.